Blackstone Flat-Bottom V Thread

[Chadd 916]

Merged into master topic

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Fixed

I've been lurking on this thread for a while some great info. - so thanks all. I finally went over to the rink at lunch and took the plunge.

My local rink has a blademaster system I got the run down on it from the owner. I started me out with their #6 which he was

saying matched house cut of 5\8". He let me hop out on to the ice to try them out. It took me a second to find the edge

but a bit it settled right in I did I really did feel a difference. Going to skate them in a game tomorrow night and see how it feels.

Can't wait.

That wasn't FBV.

[jimmy 194]

yes softer ice makes a difference for sure.

Soft ice doesnt effect FBV as much as a hollow cut. The flat prevents the edges from sinking into the ice as much as hollows do.

[MLSman 22]

I've been on the FBV for about two years, and could never go back to ROH.

My personal preference is the 90/50 in the winter when the ice is harder, and 90/75 during the summer months or in a hot building with softer ice. As jimmy said, the hollow cut of the 90/50 still gives you the same glide when the ice is soft, but edge control decreases because the edges are not as steep....so I tend to lose my grip when I lean aggressively on a single edge. I played at the War Memorial (where the Syracuse Crunch play) in the Crunch Classic charity game on a 90/50 and I had difficulties with my edges because that place is HOT and the ice is soft. It makes a difference when you rely heavily on edge control and skating is your biggest attribute.

[dc00 0]

Still trying to figure out what FBV profile would work best for us before we start to spend the money. But I'm not very clear on a couple of things.

First, this is the part that confuses me the most. Bigger first number means larger flat area, thus better glide. However it also makes the edges sharper, thus more bite. So what gives? How do you compare 90/75 and 100/75?

I'm pretty sure I got this part right: Bigger second number means "deeper cut", thus more bite - so 90/75 has more bite than 90/50, thus no as good glide.

Now how do you compare 100/75vs 90/50 and 100/50 vs 90/75?

[Jeff Price 0]

I sharpen with the Blackstone FBV system here in Livonia, MI. I've been using the Blackstone machines since the opened for biz about 13 years ago. We were one of the first to own the FBV and spinner system in Michigan. The 90/75 cut is used by 95% of my customers. Anyone using the ROH cuts 9/16, 5/8 or 1/2 are using 90/75. All but one of my goalies are using 100/75.

[Chadd 916]

I look at them as two different scales. The X/50 scale and X/75 scale, we'll leave any others out of it for now. As you noted, the 50's don't bite as much as the 75's. The chart on the blackstone page gives a pretty good idea where they slot in between each other.

[dc00 0]

Does 100/50 give similar bite as 90/75? It makes the edges sharper, though not as deep. This is probably where all my questions came from.

[tareatingrat 4]

Most of the guys I have that were on 5/8 went to 90/75. Most of them felt that 90/50 had much less bite than they were used to.

That's what the guy at the shop says, too, in terms of most people being fine with 90/75. But, again, in my opinion, 90/75 was way more bite than 5/8". In fact, I needed a sharpening and had to get 5/8" the other day...didn't notice much difference at all.

One time I was in a rush, and the guy I usually get my FBV at was busy and said he could do 90/75 now, or 90/50 when things died down (I'm one of only two or three people who get a 90/50 in the city). So I got a 90/75. Way too much bite.

That said, everybody is different. If you go to 90/75 and like it, great. But I'd say 90/50 is closer to 5/8 in terms of bite and glide. That said, I'm also a heavy guy at 230-ish. YMMV.

Edited March 16, 2012 by tareatingrat

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

So what gives? How do you compare 90/75 and 100/75?

The second number corresponds to the edge height in 1/1000000"

So the reason why the 100/75 feels deeper than the 90/75 when they both have the same edge height is because since the flat is wider on the 100/75, the angle between the end of the flat and the tip of the edge is steeper.

[Chadd 916]

That's what the guy at the shop says, too, in terms of most people being fine with 90/75. But, again, in my opinion, 90/75 was way more bite than 5/8". In fact, I needed a sharpening and had to get 5/8" the other day...didn't notice much difference at all.

One time I was in a rush, and the guy I usually get my FBV at was busy and said he could do 90/75 now, or 90/50 when things died down (I'm one of only two or three people who get a 90/50 in the city). So I got a 90/75. Way too much bite.

That said, everybody is different. If you go to 90/75 and like it, great. But I'd say 90/50 is closer to 5/8 in terms of bite and glide. That said, I'm also a heavy guy at 230-ish. YMMV.

I think you are the outlier in the equation. Even the guys around here that skated on 3/4 like 90/75.

Does 100/50 give similar bite as 90/75? It makes the edges sharper, though not as deep. This is probably where all my questions came from.

I don't think any X/50 is going to bite as much as a X/75 in terms of pure gripping power. That said, a number of my guys that came from 1/2" didn't think that 100/50 had enough bite. They are all happy with the 95/75 now. The only guy that I have on 100/50 now is one that always said his skates were too sharp when they were freshly sharpened at 1/2". More than anything, I think it's important to try a couple hollows and see what feels right and works best for you.

[dc00 0]

Thanks all. We'll give 90/75 a try.

[tareatingrat 4]

I think you are the outlier in the equation. Even the guys around here that skated on 3/4 like 90/75.

Could be. Like I said, I'm one of only a handful in the city that get that cut. Just saying for people who might feel the same thing.

[Law Goalie 147]

A fascinating development...

Duke's Hockey Source for Sports in Etobicoke (Toronto) is now refusing to sharpen goalie skates on FBV after having done it since they week they got the machine from Blackstone.

Fair enough: they are allowed to determine how their business operates. The attempts to rationalise that decision, however, betrayed an alarming ignorance.

Initially, their sharpener claimed that he would no longer sharpen goalie skates because "FBV doesn't do anything for goalies." When asked why not, he replied that "FBV is for speed," which apparently goalies don't need. When it was suggested that goalies would benefit from enhanced glide in a T-push just like everyone else (to say nothing of the benefits in shuffling), he tried a new approach.

Now it was claimed that "it takes way, way too long to do FBV on goalie skates." Yet everyone in this thread has said consistently that all it takes as a few clicks on the holder. When asked about that, a third approach was tried.

Suddenly, it was "impossible" to sharpen goalie skates on FBV "because the blade is 4mm wide." This made even less sense based on the information in this thread. The sharpener finally allowed that he would continue to sharpen Bauer One100 goalie blades (~3mm) on FBV, but would not sharpen any other goalie skates including RBK 9K 'Thrust' blades, which are 3.2mm -- about .0025mm wider than a C+.

Again, as a business decision, it's the shop's call, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. To give deliberately misleading information about Blackstone's technology is another matter entirely.

[jimmy 194]

First, the speed advantage for goalies IS negligable. But, some goalies may still want the FBV, that's their choice. But, I sympathize with the shop owner. It's not just a simple few click adjustment. With a line of people, stopping to do a FBV on a goalie really slows things down. So I can see why they wouldn't want to offer it for the very few goalies who may want to use it. I have 4 FBV heads and two holders set and aligned and ready to go for 3.2mm and 4.0mm blades, so for me it's not a problem. But the small shop who doesn't have the machines and holders, it's not cost effective for them to offer it.

[Law Goalie 147]

Fair enough: as I said, it is entirely the shop's decision, and I don't begrudge them that.

Personally, I noticed an enormous difference in all aspects of skating. The glide phase of T-pushes met significantly less resistance; I found telescoping (ie. C-cuts) significantly less tiring over a 90-minute skate; shuffling was made much, much more precise because of the constant angle of the 'fangs' (as opposed to having the ice as a tangent to the circle of the ROH at the edge); and, as a consequence, that it's much easier to find the edge in butterfly movement. Granted, I do fit the profile of someone who will benefit more from FBV than most: I'm about 225lbs + ~40lbs of gear, I was using a deep hollow already, and I tend to chew the ice up pretty badly.

Again, I would have had no problem if he had said exactly what you did: it's a finicky adjustment, it slows things down, we're small but busy shop (they're not that small, but they do only have one FBV head, IIRC), etc. I even offered to drop off only my spare blades, at a time of their convenience and with a window of their convenience, and to pay whatever premium they thought fair; I had also tipped ($10-$20) on a regular basis, just not this particular time. They're one of the bigger goalie stores in Toronto, and they do good work, for which they should be fairly compensated.

He's totally within his rights to say no, even with those offers; it's his business, and his bottom line. My only problem was that instead of simply explaining the situation (as you did) or considering those options, he was far more interested in telling me why FBV doesn't work and couldn't work for goalies. He didn't even *need* to justify it to me; the way he chose to do so was more than a little suspect.

Is FBV really that much harder to sharpen on wider blades than ROH? Should shops be charging goalies more for sharpenings generally? If figure skaters pay more, shouldn't we?

[jimmy 194]

Wow, you did everything you could to try to get that done. For $20 tip, I'd pick them up at your house and deliver them! Anyway, it does take 2x longer to do most goalie skates as it is, due to the better quality stainless. For FBV with one head, you have to change holder from a 2.9 to a 4.0, calibrate, sharpen, then go back to a 2.9, and calibrate. Not a fast process and way more labor than a regular FBV. This is why I got 2 more holders. In the beginning when I had one machine, I got backed up 12-15 pairs while doing a goalie or a Rocket Runner. I tried to have them leave them and come back but a lot couldn't do that. But, since I'm primarily a custom sharpening and radius shop, I just couldn't function right with 1 machine and 1 holder. I know Dukes is huge, but maybe they don't focus on sharpening, rather equipment.

[AIREAYE 248]

Duncan, apparently it's true that FBV jigs can't work well with 4mm wide steel and that the 3mm ones on the One100 are fine. I asked about it today and I've been told basically the same thing as jimmy mentioned here, except for the effectiveness for goalies part. The employee should've explained that in the first place in one go though haha.

Perhaps a new goalie-specific jig will widen compatibility? Don't know about the length of time needed though.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

Has nothing to do with the jig and everything to do with additional work/time.

[Law Goalie 147]

Thanks, guys: I'm getting a better picture of how this works.

Given the difficulties, it really does seem like goalies should be charged more. The shop's either investing a lot of time or a not insignificant chunk of money to save the time, and unless they get a ton of figure-skating business, it probably isn't worth it: goalies are only going to account for 1 out of every 10-15 sharpenings.

The real annoyance for me is that there really isn't another goalie-driven place close by that offers FBV in Toronto. Just Hockey and Majer are a bit of a haul (and not really near anywhere I play, or generally go for any other reason). Maybe I'll try to get hired at York U to justify going to Majer on a regular basis... heh.

Failing that, I'll either have to try BFD at Toronto Hockey Repair/Goalie Heaven, or get myself some One100 cowlings. The real pisser is that I'd just tracked down a pair of One60s, and my main reason for doing that was to keep the durability and geometry of 4mm steel...

[wrangler 157]

Well, there's always the alternative of more steel in the rotation, and mailing it out for sharpening.

[Law Goalie 147]

True, but at that point, I'd probably just drive over to one of those places. It's not that there aren't places in Toronto that will do FBV; I just happen to live in a bit of a dead-zone, surrounded by die-hard Blademaster shops.

[pcoughfee 0]

all national sports do fbv....pm oldtrainerguy

[jimmy 194]

Law, here's a suggstion. If Dukes is where you want to go, why not purchase a skate holder and "lend" it to Dukes providing it's set up and aligned and ready for your skates. You'll then let them use the holder for other goalies and they sharpen your skates for free in return. Once they have a seperate holder, no reason why they can't sharpen you with FBV, no extra work or time needed at that point. The money you save from having to drive around will pay for the holder in no time.

[Jordan 13]

Law...

sounds like it's time to buy your own X-01 or X-02.