Controversy pushes girl off hockey team

[ktang 34]

I thought that the old days of girls not being "able" to play with boys was over, but maybe not.

Controversy pushes girl off hockey team - link

In summary, one of the parents on this girl's peewee (11-12 yrs old) team wanted to restrict her ice time unless she improved etc. The girl was upset by this, so she left that team to join an all-girls team.

I'm wondering that if this player weren't a girl then the lawyer would not have made such a big deal and agenda item out of her skill level and playing time.

In the past there weren't girls' leagues, so any girl players had to play on boys' teams. Now that there are girls-only leagues, should girls have the choice of playing on boys' teams?

---------

Another point in the article is about the locker room "near misses", but I think this is just a red herring - locker room access on mixed teams has been managed well for others, so why not for this team?

[IniNew 53]

Just finished reading this and was on my way to post it. (Are you a member of reddit.com?) Either way, this does sound like a personal attack due to gender. Granted, it could have legitimately came from complaints from the boys on her team but instead of attacking the girl, why not explain to your boys that this is a game anyone can play?

[forbs02 20]

Sounds like she is getting ice time over the player who's father made the complaint.

[ktang 34]

I picked this up from Fark.com. Some of the comments on there about this story are pretty good.

The parents do shape the kids' view of the world at these ages, so I think that it's the parents who don't understand that this is a game for both genders. Or maybe just one parent. But it should never have been made an agenda item. The coach himself said that she was good enough for the team.

[chk hrd 164]

If it was a matter of her safety then she should be moved. It does not say if it is a checking league or not. "A" level hockey is more about fun and less about winning then Tier Level. We don't know all the details but if she is lacking in skill to where she should where orange then maybe she would progress better on a girls team closer to where abilities are. It would probably bennefit her since she most likely catches alot of flack from the boys.

[Secti0n31 0]

Indeed we don't know the finer points of the girl's situation, but something similar happened with a girl on my HS team. She played hockey with boys for her whole life but didn't even try out for our team until junior year, and she would have made the team too. Noone heckled her or anything but she just stopped showing up after 5 of the pre-season captain's practices. She couldn't hit, but she could take one, and she was a sound skater, shooter, all-around good player. She just stopped coming. To this day I still don't know why.

[Axxion89 32]

The article seems biased off the start since, after reading it, the girl left on her own after finding out. The dad definitely should have addressed the coach first but then again, we don't know any important details like: how bad was the girl relative to others on the team, was the coach aware of the situation/did he ignore the complaints, have there been past meetings of this nature?

Basically, IMHO, if you are a girl and there are girls teams around that you can play on, play on them. If you want to play with boys, then don't complain about being singled out if you are struggling or feel insulted about not being good. If you play with boys because you want a challenge (I think she says thats why she played with boys/its implied) then you're playing with a target on your back,thats life in this world. People will call you out, insult you, and be mean. All you gotta do is keep on trucking because theres not much you can do except be the better person.

[chippa13 1844]

Atis said he never intended Kayla to see the agenda.

“As a parent, my heart goes out to her. If Kayla truly read this agenda by accident, it is very unfortunate . . . I am mortified that Vanessa or Sheree or whoever shared this agenda with Kayla would actually do so . . . I believe Kayla’s feelings could have been spared. That, to me, is the great shame in this process that Kayla would feel as she did.”

I am not sure if calling this guy a douchebag quite covers it. He has no problem making the girl's mother and grandmother feel like shit but feels bad that the daughter saw the agenda he created to single a kid out. This guy deserves a strong asskicking.

[wrangler 157]

In situations like this, it's always hard to know what the facts are. I have to wonder why this girl didn't join the girls' team to start with. Was it the mother's idea? Maybe there is a problem there.

On the other hand, maybe the ability question is simply an excuse for people who don't want a girl playing with their sons.

I don't know anything about programs at this level, but aren't these kids at an age where both sexes shouldn't be sharing a dressing room?

Seems possible to make a case for either side, with the little we've heard, depending on what/whom you believe.

[iceNsteel 0]

There's obviously a girls team available because she's playing on it now, and that's where she should be. I'm sorry to hear of yet another incident of little league sports politics that are such utter crap. I don't think a sane person could say this was handled well. However, especially when kids start getting into the preteen years, co-ed sports should be out.

I noticed this article touches on the challenge aspect of girls playing with boys. Locally the big hub-bub this year was a girl that demanded to play on the boys' soccer team (the high school had a girls' program). The school district caved to the demands, and the minute it was clear she wasn't going to be a starting player her parents sued the school district. The tax payers ended up ponying up about $55,000 for expert witnesses to testify that the coach wasn't discriminating, her skills were just inferior.

Let's switch this up for a minute: I had a friend in high school we'll call John, liked basketball and wasn't very good at it. Spent his junior and senior year on the JV team and never lettered. However, he was easily better than any of the varsity girl players, so should he have been allowed to play on the girls team? Obviously in real life no guy would ever want to endure the stigma that would go along with playing on a girls' team. But we'd never allow, let along be gung-ho, on letting boys take spots on a girls team. Why should it be any different in reverse? If boys have to loose opportunities so girls can have more challenge it seems only fair that if a boy wants less challenge he should have an equal opportunity to take a spot on a girls team. Or we could just have some sane policies: such as girls can play on girls teams and boys can play on boys teams.

The locker room situation is also a valid concern, especially as kids get older. We have mens' and womens' locker rooms and bathrooms for a reason.

[chippa13 1844]

Ice, are you really that intimidated by having to compete with a girl? If the girl had the ability to play with the boys, and judging by the fact that the coach selected her for the team we can assume she did, then there shouldn't have been any problem. The lockerroom concern is just a cop out. It is so easy to avoid any problems with that that it shouldn't even be mentioned. I helped coach a peewee team that had a girl on it and we never had a problem with propriety.

Should the female MSHers not be allowed to the Summer Jam or Winterfest and have to schedule their own?

[Axxion89 32]

Ice, are you really that intimidated by having to compete with a girl? If the girl had the ability to play with the boys, and judging by the fact that the coach selected her for the team we can assume she did, then there shouldn't have been any problem. The lockerroom concern is just a cop out. It is so easy to avoid any problems with that that it shouldn't even be mentioned. I helped coach a peewee team that had a girl on it and we never had a problem with propriety.

Should the female MSHers not be allowed to the Summer Jam or Winterfest and have to schedule their own?

Thats apples and oranges. I think what Ice is saying is that at a certain age, girls should play with girls and boys should plays with boys because why should a girl play with guys to play better when a boy will DEFF NOT be able to play on a girls team, is that not unfair when you look at it objectively? The situation was definitely mishandled and I am sure the Atis guy had ulterior motives but I agree at 12 years old, if there is a girls team play on it, if not then yes girls have no other choice than to play on boys team.

[Hradsky 1]

I agree with ice.

But also: Instead of wanting a challenge and playing on a boys team, why not play on a level up (AA?) on a girls team? Why not play with older girls? I think as long as she's not playing AAA on a boys team then there are better places for a girl to play.

Not that I have anything against girls playing with boys, but I'm 16 myself and we had a girl in the league last year, and it was just weird. How do you play around her? Can you "take the body" or will you go to jail or something? Ok probably not jail but still can you push her chest area or should you avoid that? Just weird stuff, and there's PLENTY of girls teams around here.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

I am not sure if calling this guy a douchebag quite covers it. He has no problem making the girl's mother and grandmother feel like shit but feels bad that the daughter saw the agenda he created to single a kid out. This guy deserves a strong asskicking.

I concur. Someone should draft an item to have his son's icetime limited. This goes back to the old saying, don't put anything in writing you don't want someone to see.

[Travimo 0]

I agree with ice.

But also: Instead of wanting a challenge and playing on a boys team, why not play on a level up (AA?) on a girls team? Why not play with older girls? I think as long as she's not playing AAA on a boys team then there are better places for a girl to play.

Not that I have anything against girls playing with boys, but I'm 16 myself and we had a girl in the league last year, and it was just weird. How do you play around her? Can you "take the body" or will you go to jail or something? Ok probably not jail but still can you push her chest area or should you avoid that? Just weird stuff, and there's PLENTY of girls teams around here.

I remember playing JV football sophmore year (Graduated last year), and one of the teams we played had a few girls. Not a big deal, but one of them was a Defensive lineman, it was just kinda "weird", as you said. Now that I think about it, she probably just wanted to be treated like one of the guys on the field, but in a position with as much contact as a lineman, it was hard to make myself put my hands out and push and shove and such. Everyone kind of had to think about whether it was okay to push, and grab, and shove as much as it would be with a guy.

Im all for Women playing sports with Men, but sometimes it can get pretty complicated, What about as she got older, Fighting, and checking and such? Another thing to consider, what if it had been a boy in this position? Would anyone have cared that he quit because his icetime got shortened a bit because he "wasnt good enough"?

[Tailboard Jockey 25]

I concur. Someone should draft an item to have his son's icetime limited. This goes back to the old saying, don't put anything in writing you don't want someone to see.

It's not the son's fault that his dad is an oxygen thief.

[Secti0n31 0]

It's not the son's fault that his dad is an oxygen thief.

Agreed. At that age the kids are 100x more well behaved than the parents are. if the girl is really as 'bad' as some people think she was, fine. Travelling hockey can be a bitch, but even if she had 4th line talent there's noreason to berate the girl into quitting. screw the locker room issues, she's a player and she's gonna have to learn about locker room bs anyways

As I said earler, we don't know the girl. We weren't there for practices and games. For all I know, the parent(s) that complained because this girl was one line up from their "gifted" kid. Or, she could be a horrible hockey player, and slow-up the kids badly. I've seen it happen, regardless of the gender. "what do you mean my kid didn't make it to the hockey team??? I didn't raise a benchwarmer!!" It happens a lot. I only wish I knew the details so that I could make an accurate analysis, so without an analysis, I say women should be out there too. There's no such thing as a high school women's hockey team as far as I know. If the wants to be better, she has to play with the best.

[ktang 34]

Lots of good points, on both sides.

Here in Calgary pee-wee doesn't have AA, AAA teams (doesn't start until Bantam), so pee-wee 1 is the highest calibre for that age group (10-12 yrs old). As an on-ice official I see a lot of girls on these pee-wee 1 teams competing very well. Some of them are much larger than the boys at this age, too.

I don't know what's going on in the stands with the parents, though, as the girls take out some of the boys or play better than them.

All-girls' teams here are still not as skilled as boys' teams (up to Midget), so for some girls who have the skills, playing on a mixed team may be the only way for them to challenge themselves to get better. Maybe in a few years the girls' teams will get better coaching and more skill.

[bob_flip 0]

My son's squirt team has a one girl. She has pretty good skating skills, not a bad shooting skills for that age and lot of desire to play. BUT! She is an awful disaster for the team. She is clumsy in offense. In defense, she is knocking out the teammates. Brings lot of penalties for team. The worst thing she hasn't any progress. The coach tried to put she in different positions, same harm. It's the biggest wish of the guys, rid from her.

[JKranz24 1]

I agree with the sentiment that if she were a boy, there'd be no issue cutting him if he simply wasn't talented enough to hang with them.

Granted, at 10, 11, 12 years old the talent level doesn't really matter, but I would be upset too that if at a higher level, a better player wasn't getting ice time in lieu of a girl playing.

Now, on the other hand, if she was as good (or better) than the players, and there's a fuss being made simply because she's a girl, then screw them, let her play!

Basically, if the girl can hang with the boys, then let her play!

[stuie7 6]

Not to defend the way the situation was handled but..

Whether its appropriate at this level or not, I don't know; but even if a girl is capable of playing a physical game, most guys aren't going to want to hit her like they would with another guy (is this sexist?), as such this is limiting their game because subconsciously or not, you've giving the girl a much easier time.

If the girl in question is better suited and happy with her new team, then no harm done.

[bostonjuniorblackhawks 1]

I had one of my friends play with guys up until bantam minor when she decided to go to an all girls team. She was always on the top team and held her own.

Another one of my friends played on and off with guys (she was playing for a nationally ranked girls aaa team) until second year bantams when she commited to girls varsity hockey at a top ne prep school. She could handle the physical play and made the other teams look awful. She ended up committing to BC

As long as a girl can handle the level of contact in pewees and batams, I see no reason to try to keep them from playing with boys.

[oldman 1]

Lots of good points, on both sides.

Here in Calgary pee-wee doesn't have AA, AAA teams (doesn't start until Bantam), so pee-wee 1 is the highest calibre for that age group (10-12 yrs old). As an on-ice official I see a lot of girls on these pee-wee 1 teams competing very well. Some of them are much larger than the boys at this age, too.

I don't know what's going on in the stands with the parents, though, as the girls take out some of the boys or play better than them.

All-girls' teams here are still not as skilled as boys' teams (up to Midget), so for some girls who have the skills, playing on a mixed team may be the only way for them to challenge themselves to get better. Maybe in a few years the girls' teams will get better coaching and more skill.

My son plays in Calgary on a pee wee 1 team that has a girl and a coworker of mine has a daughter that plays on one of our opposition teams in the same division. He has a neat story of meeting one of the Canadian Womens National team members (can't remember her name) speaking with his daughter and asking about hockey and how she likes playing with the boys. She encouraged her to stick with the boys for as long as she enjoyed it and can handle the physical play. The increased competition of playing against the boys will only make them a better player in the end.

Both are great kids and most of the Calgary arenas have a dedicated womens change room to accommodate the girls and the coaches ensure that the boys are dressed for pre and post game meetings. It isn't an issue in my experience at this age but in Calgary we have 11 divisions of Peewee and the players are placed on teams accordingly so the skill sets shouldn't vary extremely and that may not always be case elsewhere.

[chk hrd 164]

There is nothing wrong with playing with the boys as long as they can hadle it. My son's Bantam AA team had 2 girl goalies, one just was signed to a D1 college. One of the goalies preffers to play with the boys because of the speed. She played with a top girls team and her timing was off because she had to slow down a hair. She will be able to play with U16's but after that the size becomes an issue. The girl who is going to D1 had problems physically controlling the crease. Both girls know thier limitations and realize it is not going to be possible to play with the boys.

Another girl (and her family)who we played with hasn't learned her limitations yet. She is a small girl who is talented and plays for a nationally ranked team as well as a U16AA team. Last time I saw her play she was absolutely crushed into the boards and got a concussion (knocked out). You think her father would realize that she is physically not able to habdle it but he wants her to keep playing with the boys.

[dsjunior1388 81]

If he would have just suggested she be removed from the PP and PK and moved to forward, this wouldn't have made the local paper. This stuff always goes a step too far. Calling for her removal, even eventually, was pathetic.