Has anyone here ever gone from a $700-1000 skate to a $250-300 skate and liked the cheap one better?

[Chadd 916]

Unfortunately this doesn’t exist yet. Same argument could be made for RBK, CL, Easton EQ, Bauer OneXX models, they don’t have that type of skate yet, and every model going down is a compromise in the design.

Mission did it a long time ago. It would be nice to see Bauer take the technology and techniques acquired when they bought mission and combine it with their expertise in materials.

[CvO 0]

+1, a good point of reference is Alexei Zinoviev who wears those soft Mission Flyweights and yet is still good enough to represent Russia at the Olympics. His skating can't be too shabby..

+1 more, Roman Polak skates in a flex lite.

[automorph 0]

^lolol roman polak, clearly a great "skater" in the nhl

[JR Boucicaut 3815]

+1 more, Roman Polak skates in a flex lite.

But a custom Flexlite is not the same as a FL 4.0 Pro. Matter of fact, a custom Flexlite costs more than a custom X:60.

[Neo5370 132]

Mission did it a long time ago. It would be nice to see Bauer take the technology and techniques acquired when they bought mission and combine it with their expertise in materials.

And Graf did it before Mission w/ the 707. I'm in the same boat as the ankle-skaters out there in that I very much prefer increased ankle flex. I know it's personal preference but if you ask any reputable power skating coach from those that coach amateur to pro, they will tell you that restricting ankle movement is detrimental to your skating. I'll concede, however, that the one caveat is that what amounts to "restrictive" depends on numerous factors like weight, strength, technique, and what the skater has gotten used. This is where we start to see (generally) bigger/stronger guys using XX-stiff boots or taping the tendon guards to their legs. I think people don't realize that to them, the skate isn't XX-stiff but just right. Then you get consumers thinking they need a +4 stiffness or wrapping their laces around and around and around and they skate like frankenstein or they get used to it and learn to skate from the hips instead of using their ankles as well for controlling their edges.

I really hope that top of the line boots will trend towards even more forward flex, esp. since the majority of consumers are not pro's. Remember when sticks only came in 100 or 85 and almost everybody and their mother had 100 flex sticks cut down? Now we have such a wide range to choose from and people actually realizing that stiffer isn't always better. I feel like we're in that 100/85 or nothing phase in skates right now.

I know CCM tried that whole red/blue/white stiffness thing which bombed but I see so many people learning how to skate, essentially in ski bindings. I know it might be extreme to say, but I think it's bad for growing the sport.

I'm with Chadd and would absolutely kill for Bauer to re-introduce Mission's Supple Fit system. Or for Graf to make the 707 w/ a super narrow heel and shallow depth :)

[ultraman7k 0]

the immortal Roman Polak!

nice to see someone still rockin' the flex lites. aren't there a couple others that still roll in those? i know Liles did a while back, not sure if he still does.

[JCYC5 0]

you can weigh 100 or 300lbs, if your foot fits a stiff skate properly and your skating is good you cannot skate in a cheaper skate again, it will feel like the skates are not laced up

Not saying a beginner skater jump into highend skates but if you skate often and have decent technique using low/mid end skates

Try a proper fitting high end skate YOU WILL NEVER LOOK BACK

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

[automorph 0]

your right i dont

[MLSman 22]

This is where we start to see (generally) bigger/stronger guys using XX-stiff boots or taping the tendon guards to their legs. I think people don't realize that to them, the skate isn't XX-stiff but just right.

I understand and agree to your supple fit point, but again, many tend to make generalizations that are just not grounded on fact. I have seen a few pro custom skate lists, and the greatest % of those pros use a 2 stiffness (which is in most cases retail stiffness). I would consider the NHL player lists the biggest/strongest guys as a reference. The accurate fit of a custom boot is the single-most important advantage...not it's stiffness. Stiffness I would argue is more of a personal preference...and I am in that boat WITH a custom skate...knowing full well I might just as well be happy with a 2 stiffness with the accurate fit and sizing, vs my 3 stiffness that I use on my TOs.

Taping the tendon guard can be done for a number of reasons. Some tape a small section and wrap around the front of the shin for additional support of forward flex. Some tightly wrap to reduce forward flex and increase high ankle support. I don't think that boot stiffness is equatable to taping...other than the argument of personal preference...which I assume you meant by saying "just right".

My point is that someone shelling out some serious coin for an elite level skate should at least have an idea of their personal preference and the importance of a proper fit vs the name on the skate. This isn't the case. Most consumers of equipment...and people that sell it for that matter...are very uninformed. Someone buying a XX-stiff skate has to go custom and is shelling out extra money for that, so we can assume they have a reason and are more informed...albeit in some cases only slightly more informed. There are exceptions...just look at EWH.

I agree that the consumer market should have more flexibility with fit choices to include softer ankle support, but the economics of equipment isn't about choice....it's about volume sales. We have heard and seen time and time again how this point is clearly made with figure skates. You can buy a generic Ridell skate if you want, but as you get better and want the best fit....it's gonna cost 5-10x as much as a retail figure skate...and we are talking 2-3x more than the cost of a custom APX or TO skate. Buying an elite level skate without considering the perfect fit baffles me.

[Chadd 916]

And Graf did it before Mission w/ the 707.

Similar in terms of varying stiffness, though supplefit was a significantly more advanced concept (anatomical fit).

[DarkStar50 680]

Elite level figure skaters get killed on the price of their steel. That alone is $500-$650 per pair for top of the line. Add the custom boot at $600 and cha-ching.

If a pro takes a #2 stiffness boot and breaks it down within a few months, he knows the next pair of boots is already being built. Not every retail skater that goes custom needs #3 stiffness but it nice to up the strength of the boot as long the skater can handle it. The stiffer boot will obviously last longer, which is great since the team isn't paying for your skates!

[Neo5370 132]

...the economics of equipment isn't about choice....it's about volume sales. ..... Buying an elite level skate without considering the perfect fit baffles me.

I completely agree and I think it's sad for growing the sport. I can't completely blame the manufacturers b/c in the end, the purpose of a business is to generate profit for owners/shareholders, however, I really wish consumers, esp. beginners and semi-competetive players were more informed about the most important aspect of the game.

Hockey's expensive enough as it is but when you have beginners who become discouraged b/c their skates don't fit correctly or are restricting them from learning proper mechanics, you lose potential consumers b/c they think can never get the hang of it or those that do shell out hundreds of dollars trying every different brand/size/and width. I know in the short-run it's easier and more profitable to mass produce and market the hell out of something by making it seem glitzy (I'm looking at you vapor users who don't have vapor feet) than it is to educate consumers and convince LHS's to carry a bajillion SKU's for different feet (a la Graf).

I wish there were a way to make custom fitting programs or truly completely moldable boots (like speed-skates/KOR/MLX type concept) economical for the avg. consumer yet profitable enough to convince the top brands to offer it b/c let's face it, even the most successful niche brand (mission) only lasted about 15 yrs., though not a bad run.

In the long run, I think it'll help grow the sport which I really feel is essential. I can't predict by how much, but man the level of enjoyment of just skating, let alone playing, when wearing the right skates is seriously night and day (I know I'm preaching to the choir here, just really wish we could get more people to try hockey, love, and stick w/ it).

Re: Chadd: Similar in terms of varying stiffness, though supplefit was a significantly more advanced concept (anatomical fit).

I agree w/ you there too. Great concept.

[MLSman 22]

I wish there were a way to make custom fitting programs or truly completely moldable boots (like speed-skates/KOR/MLX type concept) economical for the avg. consumer yet profitable enough to convince the top brands to offer it b/c let's face it, even the most successful niche brand (mission) only lasted about 15 yrs., though not a bad run.

An elite skate custom fit is very economical compared to the cost of the skate (usually about $100). To be honest, the real issue is the lack of trained people that can do it right. No one is ever formally trained on how to do it by the manufacturers...it's more of a "school of hard knocks" or training hand down from someone who knows how to do it properly approach. There is also the issue of top line dealers being allowed to place custom orders without "certifying" people at these shops to ensure qualified personnel are performing the fittings. When a fitting doesn't work out...custom orders are no return...so you lose, and are typically disgruntled by the experience. To me...these are the major issues...which could be solved with a training and certification program.

[raganblink 82]

I dont think they care to get more custom skate business to justify it. They already are paying plenty of people to custom build a skate - no need to increase that by two or three fold. That's more people on the payroll and more of a risk if sales dip.

I wouldn't mind seeing an implication of a certification program, allowing only certified shops to sell custom skates. those shops must have atleast one person certified to do a custom fit.

Despite the small quantity of personnel who would be interested in doing it, I think it would be worth it. Either have regional meetings where the reps/some company personnel? come in and teach to those interested. Or just have the reps do it while they are making their rounds...

For CCM this year the qualification for custom skates through them was to order 24 Crazy Lites. Easy enough... So now what? Those who wouldn't have a clue on what to do next would find it useless and if they did place a custom order in, odds are that unless its a simple size change + adding additional features (stiffness, steel, whatever) that they'd probably mess it up.

Having certification program or something would help increase custom skate sales, and generate more business towards that local business rather then bigbox. However unless there is ambition by the company it wouldn't be implemented, and the only knowledge gained will continue to be that 'school of hard knocks' philosophy.

[DarkStar50 680]

Doing a custom skate fitting is like sharpening skates. The more you do the better you get at it. You learn something from each custom fitting because each fitting is different.

As much as a certification program sounds like a great idea and it is, it would not be cost effective for the vendors. The retail number of custom skates ordered I'll bet is nowhere near what some people may think it is.

[JCYC5 0]

Not all shops are big box stores that are staffed by high school kids.

Especially up here in Canada, and further out West, there is an emphasis on fit.

As the CCM/Reebok and Bauer reps tell us, the closer one gets to Calgary (and Graf), the more fit is emphasized. The store I work at is known for proper skate fitting.

I'd say our custom rate is about 30% for the elite level players. Certainly not that many, but not a small number either.

[DarkStar50 680]

I wish Graf paid more attention to QC as people in that area do to fit. I was thinking of the US market along the Atlantic corridor that my experience is from when thinking about the numbers.

[JCYC5 0]

I wish Graf paid more attention to QC as people in that area do to fit. I was thinking of the US market along the Atlantic corridor that my experience is from when thinking about the numbers.

Everytime we get a Graf skate that has a holder aligned properly to the boot, we get excited.

Not too often.

[DarkStar50 680]

You ought to see the made to order figure boots from Graf/Calgary. The boots never sit flat from the front sole to the heel. The inside heel has nails that are bent and never true on the sole. Oh by the way, $500-$600, boot only. Did I say made in Calgary, not made in China? Think about that next time you want North American production and think the Chinese factories make inferior product.

[Jarick 5]

All I know is that since I switched from Vapors to Graf, I can lace all the way up and my edges have improved dramatically. Granted I've also put in a lot of time and effort and done some clinics but I'm a much better skater with the softer and lower cut boot. I would love if I could have the same thing at half the weight but it's not the end of the world by any means and I'm broke.

One fantastic skater I know did drills where they would remove the laces from the boot. He barely tightens them at all and has amazing edge control. Skate fit would be important but at least for him and his coach the ankle mobility was key to learning edge control.

[xrickyb86x 1]

One fantastic skater I know did drills where they would remove the laces from the boot. He barely tightens them at all and has amazing edge control. Skate fit would be important but at least for him and his coach the ankle mobility was key to learning edge control.

Wow. That's incredible. I can't even picture skating with no laces. hahahaha.