Boston Bruins: 2011-2012

[chippa13 1844]

The problem isn't so much that the contact occurred, watching the play over and over and the way that Miller followed thru on the play, contact was unavoidable. I think everyone can agree on that. The problem is that Lucic didn't seem to make any effort to avoid or temper the contact but rather followed thru with his arms. Is that enough to be suspendable? I'm not sure, at least based on how the league has protected, or rather not protected, goalies in the past.

I'm not sure if gutless properly describes Lucic's actions but I'd say it definitely describes Buffalo's response. Sure, you don't want Vanek throwing with Lucic but that was a case where every Sabre on the ice should have been trying to get his fist into Lucic. More surprising was the fact that Buffalo never took a shot at Lucic the rest of the game, especially once it was out of reach. They could have got McCormick out there and I don't think anybody would have begrudged him of taking an instigator for letting Lucic know the Sabres didn't appreciate what happened to their goalie.

[psh 25]

Fraser says Shanahan blew it, and that it is now open season on goalies:

http://tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=380468

And I didn't catch this earlier, but Thomas would seem to agree with Fraser's analysis of the consquences. Thomas says he expected to get run later in the game as Buffalo retaliated. http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2011/11/14/lucic-disciplinary-decison-may-prove-pivotal/?sct=nhl_t12_a1

One has to assume NHL management will be all over the November 23 rematch. Otherwise, things could get really dangerous.

[wrangler 157]

Shanahan's analysis made sense to me, and corresponded to what I observed. Fraser didn't really address Shanahan's points, and didn't seem to be describing the same play that I saw.

[chippa13 1844]

Fraser says Shanahan blew it, and that it is now open season on goalies: http://tsn.ca/blogs/kerry_fraser/?id=380468 And I didn't catch this earlier, but Thomas would seem to agree with Fraser's analysis of the consquences. Thomas says he expected to get run later in the game as Buffalo retaliated. http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2011/11/14/lucic-disciplinary-decison-may-prove-pivotal/?sct=nhl_t12_a1 One has to assume NHL management will be all over the November 23 rematch. Otherwise, things could get really dangerous.

Thomas expecting to get run in retaliation is hardly the same thing as saying it is open season on goalies.

[psh 25]

Thomas expecting to get run in retaliation is hardly the same thing as saying it is open season on goalies.

No, but it's an acknowledgement that he knew Lucic's act was one that frequently leads to retaliation in the absence of official action. In the same article Thomas states that goaltenders don't prepare to get run when they play the puck, based on the rules on the books. He basically throws his own guy under the bus, and rightly so.

[Steve_v3 289]

I agree that you don't want Vanek or other skilled guys going after Lucic. But remember that infamous Bruins - Stars game when Avery ran Lucic from behind. Who was the first guy to drop the gloves and go after him? Marc Savard. That team had plenty of flaws but for most of that season they didn't put up with that crap.

[chippa13 1844]

No, but it's an acknowledgement that he knew Lucic's act was one that frequently leads to retaliation in the absence of official action. In the same article Thomas states that goaltenders don't prepare to get run when they play the puck, based on the rules on the books. He basically throws his own guy under the bus, and rightly so.

But Thomas still doesn't say it is open season on goalies. I have no problem with a guy calling out his teammate, Ference did it with the blindside hit that Paille threw last year. If more guys were willing to say that a teammate did wrong then maybe there wouldn't be some of the crap that goes on.

The Stars game was exactly what came to mind when I thought about how the B's would react to a similar situation. I expect the Sabres to be playing a call-up or two the next time these teams meet.

[skyscrape 5]

I think the sabres that were on the ice are a bunch of push overs(to put it nicely). Either that or no one likes Miller!

As far as Lucic goes, He was trying to put a point across, Miller was in his land. Too many guys back down these days and until someone is willing to stand up to Lucic he will keep running around like a bully on the playground! It is hockey and I DARE Lucic to take a run at one of the flyers goalies! I mean even Ovi would have gone after him for that one!

[psh 25]

But Thomas still doesn't say it is open season on goalies. I have no problem with a guy calling out his teammate, Ference did it with the blindside hit that Paille threw last year. If more guys were willing to say that a teammate did wrong then maybe there wouldn't be some of the crap that goes on.

The Stars game was exactly what came to mind when I thought about how the B's would react to a similar situation. I expect the Sabres to be playing a call-up or two the next time these teams meet.

Sure. But it's a matter of degree. Thomas says it is open season on him, and I'd then add that leads to open season on all goalies given Shanahan's inaction in the face of two rules that were directly on point. Find a goalie trying to play the puck and drill him high and drive through with your hands. You will be fine so long as you say you were just going too fast and were not aware where you were so you couldn't really try to avoid the 'tender.

[jbss71 1]

Find a goalie trying to play the puck and drill him high and drive through with your hands. You will be fine so long as you say you were just going too fast and were not aware where you were so you couldn't really try to avoid the 'tender.

you will be fine? no, you should be destroyed by the 5 other guys on the ice.

IMO Miller has some blame here, ''yeah lets go skate out infront of lucic and stop, and not brace myself for a hit, hes coming full speed, no biggie he'll stop.''

thats like saying i'm going to skate infront of Chara because hes a big teddy bear.

[chippa13 1844]

JBSS is half correct on this one. Nobody should ever get a free run at your goaltender. No coach, especially Lindy Ruff, will ever begrudge a player for taking a 2-5-10 or third man in protecting his goalie. Gaustad was on the ice when it happened and he has a history of fighting some pretty good middle weights. I don't get why he wasn't climbing over his teammates to get at Lucic.

[jbss71 1]

It didn't need to be Luc, grab someone in a black sweater and rough them up. If I was miller id want a trade.

[chippa13 1844]

It needed to be Lucic and it needed to be an immediate response. If Lucic runs your goalie then you don't grab Krejci, you go after the guy that did it. The lack of a response will haunt the Sabres all season.

[jbss71 1]

We wouldn't be talking about this near as much if buffalo grabbed a bruin right after the play.

[chippa13 1844]

But you can't just grab a random guy. What good does it do if Gaustad pounds on Krejci when Lucic runs over his goaltender, none. The only way to respond is to grab the guy that did it. Otherwise, you're sending the message that if a good fighter does something then he will get away with it but his not so good fighting linemate may take a couple punches. You're still showing that you can be intimidated.

[Jason Harris 31]

While I said earlier that I thought the issue was being slightly overblown, I have to admit that I am a bit surprised Shanahan didn't give him at least a one game suspension to make a point. I have no doubt that, short of Lucic veering off ten feet earlier, there was going to be contact on that play. Miller reached the puck not more than two-tenths of a second ahead of Lucic, so there's no way Lucic had time to completely avoid contact, but he he had time to try to lessen the blow

If I was Shanahan, I think I would have given a one or two game suspension, just to acknowledge that contact occurs, but players need to make an effort to not hit goalies head on.

[wrangler 157]

Shanahan mentioned that neither player seemed to try to avoid contact. I inferred that it was important to him that Miller didn't try, but turned his back.

[Hooah4 12]

the next game they played Cole skated right through the blue paint and took down Ehnroth. didn't see a lot of reaction to that either.

[Joshison 1]

the next game they played Cole skated right through the blue paint and took down Ehnroth. didn't see a lot of reaction to that either.

Thats a bad sign that your team does not care/have heart

[psh 25]

But you can't just grab a random guy. What good does it do if Gaustad pounds on Krejci when Lucic runs over his goaltender, none. The only way to respond is to grab the guy that did it. Otherwise, you're sending the message that if a good fighter does something then he will get away with it but his not so good fighting linemate may take a couple punches. You're still showing that you can be intimidated.

I don't think this is about intimidation; I think it's more about protecting your most important assets. This gets to the heart of my problem with Shanahan's decision. First, it inexplicably fails to engage with a rule that appears twice in the NHL rulebook--that only incidental contact is allowed with goaltenders, even outside of the crease. Second, and most importantly, it encourages players to enforce the rules themselves and to retaliate.

But, I don't think it encourages anyone to go after Lucic. Tactically, that would be silly and ineffective. Rather, I think it encourages players to go value for value. Lucic has a relatively commodified set of values. Mostly, he can score, but so can a whole host of other guys on the Bruins roster. To effectively retaliate, the Sabres had to go after Thomas and knock him out of the game, if not the season. Thomas predicted as much would happen in SI the day after the game. On most rosters, the goaltender is, without a doubt, the most important element. You take out a goalie with Miller's value and the only rational (not necessarily moral) way to respond is to take out the other team's goalie. That's the can of worms Shanahan's inaction has opened.

Thankfully, reports from the GM's meeting indicate that they have noticed and may try to undo the damage Shanahan has done.

http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2011/11/16/gms-take-a-stand-to-protect-goalies/?sct=nhl_t11_a1

[chippa13 1844]

The rational way to respond is to go after the guy that ran your asset. The cowardly way to respond is to run the other team's asset. It is about intimidation because the Sabres showed that you can take liberties with their team, they will not respond. This situation didn't open season on goaltenders, it opened season on Sabres.

[psh 25]

The rational way to respond is to go after the guy that ran your asset. The cowardly way to respond is to run the other team's asset. It is about intimidation because the Sabres showed that you can take liberties with their team, they will not respond. This situation didn't open season on goaltenders, it opened season on Sabres.

Remind me to not make you the general of my army. Here's your approach to war: I send out a 4th line knuckle dragger to run your goalie. You have a guy who was on the ice drop gloves with him. You lose your goalie and you take a penalty. I lose nobody. My 4th liner does take a penalty, but he would be riding the pine anyway, and his penalty is offset by your glove dropper's penalty in any event. Bottom line: I win battle # 1 win.

And then it just mushrooms because I see your irrational approach. Just for giggles, I send another 4th liner to take out your top scorer. You have a guy who was on the ice drop gloves with him. You lose your top scorer and take a penalty. I lose nobody, though a 4th liner takes a penalty that is offset by yours. I win battle #2. Ad infinitum...until I have won the war easily.

The rational response is to, at a minimum, take an asset equal to the one that you have lost. Thomas will be a target and he has acknowledged to the press that he knows it. The cowardly play was Lucic's play. Running an immoble goaltender who isn't even expecting to be hit. And don't take my word for that. Tim Thomas, after the game, said goalies don't brace for hits because they know the rule book prohibits them.

Setting aside the rational response, the ideal response would have been to enforce the rule that is on the books and this escalation would not be a concern. The league has to protect it's most valuable assets, its great players. Thank goodness the GMs seem to comprehend that, even if Shananan, for a moment, did not.

[chippa13 1844]

If I follow your method then I wind up with players suspended and my coach and/or organization fined heavily. The reason, because my team didn't react in an emotional and immediate way to the original transgression but with a premeditated act that we all know from Bertuzzi's lengthly suspension is something that the league really frowns upon.

Also, I hate to break it to you but some transgressions against your team easily merit a player on your team taking the 2-5-10 to protect your assets and show that you aren't going to let other team's take liberties against them. The league can do what it wants to the offender after the fact but you have to show a willingness to respond and protect your own.

[psh 25]

If I follow your method then I wind up with players suspended and my coach and/or organization fined heavily. The reason, because my team didn't react in an emotional and immediate way to the original transgression but with a premeditated act that we all know from Bertuzzi's lengthly suspension is something that the league really frowns upon.

Also, I hate to break it to you but some transgressions against your team easily merit a player on your team taking the 2-5-10 to protect your assets and show that you aren't going to let other team's take liberties against them. The league can do what it wants to the offender after the fact but you have to show a willingness to respond and protect your own.

We've just got fundamentally different takes on this. I'd say that my method still leaves you missing your most valuable player, possibly forever, and my team has only lost a fungible 4th line thug to suspension (and possibly a fine to my coach). I still take that as a win on my side because 4th line thugs are a dime a dozen. Franchise goalies come along to a team once in a generation. In any event, my orginal and abiding point is that this entire debate could be curtailed, and possibly forever moot, if Shanahan had applied existing rules and levied a fine against Lucic. As it is, though, Buffalo is left hanging and feeling they've got a pound of flesh to extract next time they see Boston. That isn't fair to them or to Tim Thomas, who is target number one in my view. Again, I don't think that is right or fair, but I think it is the inevitable result of the calculus Lucic's hit set in motion and Shanahan enabled by failing to act.

One a side note, if Lucic has someone square off with him after the hit, he's got to love it. Not only does he take out Miller, but he probably wins the fight and gets an additional rise out of his bench. I don't see how that is perceived as standing up for Miller or preventing future thuggishness. I see it as simply walking further into a trap that has already cost you dearly. We're just approaching this differently, and I suspect your position is more broadly held among hockey traditionalists. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but it strikes me that you come from a more Flyers approach of late and I come from a more Wings approach of late. Still, I wonder if things are changing, given the reports coming out of the GMs meeting. I think that would be better and safer for all involved.

[chippa13 1844]

Regardless of what Shanahan did with Lucic, Buffalo still should feel like they've got a pound of flesh to extract from Lucic. Their star goalie got run over and they didn't respond. If someone doesn't square up with Lucic then the Sabres will be looked upon as the doormat of the league. Thomas isn't a target. That isn't how the league works. Retribution doesn't work that way. After Moore laid out Naslund the Canucks didn't take down Hejduk, they went after Moore. That is the way it goes, you go after the guy that did it.