Easton Mako Skates

[IPv6Freely 2084]

Well its nice to have options :) The Mako was the first and only skate I've ever worn that wasn't painful. I'd probably have just bought something else if it had fit (really had no desire to spend $800+ on a pair of skates but had no other choice).

Good luck :)

[Davideo 99]

What is the difference between the II and the M8? It looks like a different tongue and quarter/outsole material. So in real world scenarios what is the difference and impact?

[mojo122 530]

Carbon-fiberglass in the M8 as opposed to the carbon-composite in the II leading to the Mako II being slightly lighter. I've noticed better molding in the Mako II over the M8. Not sure whether it's perception or reality though.

[Davideo 99]

Carbon-fiberglass in the M8 as opposed to the carbon-composite in the II leading to the Mako II being slightly lighter. I've noticed better molding in the Mako II over the M8. Not sure whether it's perception or reality though.

Any difference in the fiberglass vs composite as far as durability or stiffness, or is it pretty much just weight?

[mojo122 530]

Maybe some other shop guys can answer the durability question for you. I haven't seen that many pairs out there nor as it been out long enough to know for sure. As for stiffness, I really haven't noticed a difference from trying them on. There's also one model lower than the M8 that's coming out this Spring.

[Davideo 99]

A lower model would be interesting. Thanks for the info.

[jimmy 194]

Any difference in the fiberglass vs composite as far as durability or stiffness, or is it pretty much just weight?

I don't think you'll notice anything fit or stiffness wise with the M8. As with sticks, all fiberglass ones are heavier and break easier. With the M8 I suspose a hard shot could crack the fiberglass, but this same hard shot would also damage other brands and model skaets as well. I wouldnt dwell on it, the M8 is a great skate. I havent seen any damage on the ones we have sold, so, so far so good is all I can say.

[z1ggy 81]

Has anybody had their stock ES4 steel profiled to more of a neutral pitch? I've been on these now for... almost 3 months, and while I love them, I just can't quite adjust to the very aggressive pitch. I'd rather not switch the holders out for Tuuks, so I figure a profiling from the +1 on the blade to 0 would bring my balance over my mid foot just a touch.

Edit: I'd been on Tuuks for the better part of 10 years, so I guess it may take more than just 3 months to adjust..? However, I've been playing 3-4 times per week.

Edited February 17, 2015 by z1ggy

[IPv6Freely 2084]

Has anybody had their stock ES4 steel profiled to more of a neutral pitch? I've been on these now for... almost 3 months, and while I love them, I just can't quite adjust to the very aggressive pitch. I'd rather not switch the holders out for Tuuks, so I figure a profiling from the +1 on the blade to 0 would bring my balance over my mid foot just a touch.

Edit: I'd been on Tuuks for the better part of 10 years, so I guess it may take more than just 3 months to adjust..? However, I've been playing 3-4 times per week.

Yes. I had no-icing apply a "minor negative" to my runners. Helped immensely. Also changed the radius to 10' which also helped me.

[smcgreg 81]

Has anybody had their stock ES4 steel profiled to more of a neutral pitch? I've been on these now for... almost 3 months, and while I love them, I just can't quite adjust to the very aggressive pitch. I'd rather not switch the holders out for Tuuks, so I figure a profiling from the +1 on the blade to 0 would bring my balance over my mid foot just a touch.

Edit: I'd been on Tuuks for the better part of 10 years, so I guess it may take more than just 3 months to adjust..? However, I've been playing 3-4 times per week.

Coincidentally, I did just that. I've been in Makos for abour 2 years, since the week they came out. I love them, and thought I had adjusted to the pitch, but kept feeling that when I stopped, battling for pucks or coasting and doing fakes, I was falling forward. So, two weeks ago, I had my local guy go to a neutral pitch on the runner (from the stock +1). Holy Cow!!!! It was amazing. Night and day difference in my skating. I felt like I was on rails in turns as opposed to blowing out the heel all the time. Definitely more stable when standing, battling and skating backwards. Every aspect of my game has been better. I think I was so unbalanced, that I was playing with my head down all the time, because now, I am seeing more things at speed and definitely more stable when stopped. A couple guys have commented that I am playing like a different player,.. better hockey IQ. I wouldn't have quessed the difference would have been so substantial with just that small change when the Mako is (+3) with runner and holder.

This is a very odd thing, but I will make note for those who may have a similar issue. My right foot/skate is much different in the way it interacts with the ice than the left. One manifestation of this is that I always felt I was in "high heels" on my right skate. Even after the neutral profile, I felt this in the right skate. So, after neutralizing the pitch made such a dramatic difference in my skating, I asked the guy to go (-1) on my right skate. So, now I have a neutral left runner and -1 pitch on my right runner. Again, much better skating. As I write this, I just finished a drop in that was my 3rd skate on this unique set up and it was awesome. Right now, I'm skating dramatically better than at any time I've had the Makos and likely before that. My point is, foot/skate alignment is a very unique thing, so, don't assume what works for one person will work for you... even even one foot vs the other.

Some guys love the super aggressive pitch of the Makos, but I clearly never adapted even after 2 yr of skating 4-8 times/week. Of course, YMMV.

[z1ggy 81]

@ smcgreg- I just talked with a guy at hockey monkey just now who's been in the Makos a while. He suggested before I ever did a profile, I try to add more of a "shim" in the front of my skate, to make my foot more neutral. I won't go into detail because it's kind of irrelevant, but it's basically just adding some small padding under the ball of my feet.

He also noted that stock steel is not "profiled" ahead of time to some forward pitch. The entirety of the cant is based on the holder. So when people refer to taking the +1 pitch to 0, what you are really doing is giving your blade some negative pitch. He said he likes to avoid people messing with profiling a skate 99% of the time, unless they know exactly it is what they want. It almost makes me lean toward if this doesn't work out, just "giving up" and switching out the Easton holders for Tuuks and step steel.

Edited February 17, 2015 by z1ggy

[IPv6Freely 2084]

@ smcgreg- I just talked with a guy at hockey monkey just now who's been in the Makos a while. He suggested before I ever did a profile, I try to add more of a "shim" in the front of my skate, to make my foot more neutral. I won't go into detail because it's kind of irrelevant, but it's basically just adding some small padding under the ball of my feet.

He also noted that stock steel is not "profiled" ahead of time to some forward pitch. The entirety of the cant is based on the holder. So when people refer to taking the +1 pitch to 0, what you are really doing is giving your blade some negative pitch. He said he likes to avoid people messing with profiling a skate 99% of the time, unless they know exactly it is what they want. It almost makes me lean toward if this doesn't work out, just "giving up" and switching out the Easton holders for Tuuks and step steel.

Shims are the ideal solution, but that requires taking the holder off. For me personally, saying "hey profile these please" via mail-order sharpening was much easier. It's not like the profiling can't be fixed down the road if you desire.

[smcgreg 81]

@ smcgreg- I just talked with a guy at hockey monkey just now who's been in the Makos a while. He suggested before I ever did a profile, I try to add more of a "shim" in the front of my skate, to make my foot more neutral. I won't go into detail because it's kind of irrelevant, but it's basically just adding some small padding under the ball of my feet.

He also noted that stock steel is not "profiled" ahead of time to some forward pitch. The entirety of the cant is based on the holder. So when people refer to taking the +1 pitch to 0, what you are really doing is giving your blade some negative pitch. He said he likes to avoid people messing with profiling a skate 99% of the time, unless they know exactly it is what they want. It almost makes me lean toward if this doesn't work out, just "giving up" and switching out the Easton holders for Tuuks and step steel.

Well, I actually have shims in the one skate with the negative pitch... (long story).

Two things. 1) To me, the profile is the better way to go than the shim. If you have a good profiler, it's a straightforward process and less disturbance to the "hard good" of the boot. That being said, I've put T-nuts in mine so, I can add/remove shims at will without consequence to the boot. If the shim is due to anthropetric issues that will be permanent, then that's probably a better way to go, so, you can just use stock steel. Most guys get things profiled anyway, but often a profiler thinks he knows better than the skater and you don't get what you actually ask for. Lots of profilers have this secret approach that only they use that is the best thing since sliced bread for everybody no matter what the circumstance. Again, in that case, the shim would be the way to go.

2) The ES4 steel has a stock +1 pitch and the holder is +2. The result is a +3. This is well documented and discussed. I've seen it when a skate guy pulled my new steel out skeptical that the steel had a pitch and voila.... it did. So, not sure who you talked to, but he was wrong.

All the above being said, if you're comfy in the Tuuk, then yes, that may be the simplest way to go. The Easton steel is good, but the real value in the Mako is the boot, so, if you have a pitch/profile you like and are comfy with, maybe just stick with it. That being said, I came from Supremes, so, Tuuks, and in the current carnation, with a ~ (+2) pitch, I'm a pretty happy camper. I may still go back one notch to see what it's like though. Hard to imagine it would be any better.

[Larry54 243]

@ smcgreg- I just talked with a guy at hockey monkey just now who's been in the Makos a while. He suggested before I ever did a profile, I try to add more of a "shim" in the front of my skate, to make my foot more neutral. I won't go into detail because it's kind of irrelevant, but it's basically just adding some small padding under the ball of my feet.

He also noted that stock steel is not "profiled" ahead of time to some forward pitch. The entirety of the cant is based on the holder. So when people refer to taking the +1 pitch to 0, what you are really doing is giving your blade some negative pitch. He said he likes to avoid people messing with profiling a skate 99% of the time, unless they know exactly it is what they want. It almost makes me lean toward if this doesn't work out, just "giving up" and switching out the Easton holders for Tuuks and step steel.

I assume you're talking about "shimming" the insole? In my experience, that's never as effective as adding a shim between the holder and the boot, or changing the pitch of the blade. No matter what you do with the insole, the lean or angle of the ankle area of the boot doesn't change so you're lower leg stays at the same angle relative to the ice. But it's a cheap mod so you have nothing to lose in trying it.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Larry54

[AfftonDad 88]

He also noted that stock steel is not "profiled" ahead of time to some forward pitch. The entirety of the cant is based on the holder. So when people refer to taking the +1 pitch to 0, what you are really doing is giving your blade some negative pitch. He said he likes to avoid people messing with profiling a skate 99% of the time, unless they know exactly it is what they want. It almost makes me lean toward if this doesn't work out, just "giving up" and switching out the Easton holders for Tuuks and step steel.

I believe the monkey man is wrong... Although I believe it to be around +1.5 in the runner and +1.5 in the holder for a total of around +3 (not +1 and +2). I've had a set profiled to +1 (leaving a total of around +2.5) and a set profiled to 0 (leaving a total of around +1.5). I did +1 to give a previously torn MCL some relief from some pain I was getting due to the pitch. +1 noticeably reduced the pain. I then tried 0 to see if I could further reduce the pain. It felt so slow compared to what I was used to (having become accustomed to the extreme forward pitch) that I swapped them back out 30 minutes in to the pick up. I'm back to the full stock (total) +3 on my VH skates.

Edited February 17, 2015 by AfftonDad

[iammerson 19]

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping that someone can provide me with some insight as to what direction I should go? Pretty much just resigned to men's league for the rests of my days skating. I'm ready to buy what I'm thinking will be the last skates I ever buy, especially at current price points. As of this point in time, I'm between buying the Mako 2 or Bauer MX3's. Here's my dilemma, my favorite skates of all time are the Micron 10-90 Megas. I'm not sure wht it is, but it seems these skates almost forced you to skate properly. I feel that simple in terms of skating that I played my best hockey wearing that boot. Since the demise of Micron I've pretty much been in Bauer Supremes. They have always fit well, but I've always felt that my skating has been slightly off. I switched to Graf G35s about 4 years ago and I love the pitch, how the boot is designed, etc, but they do not fit me properly. The front part of my foot is squeezed, and the large ball towards the back of my big toe on the side just gets rubbed raw. Developed a big corn on both feet. Can't wear the skates without a corn cushion period. I've never loved a skat so much that fit so terribly. The kid who sold them to me swore that it was a 3d moldable boot, it's not.

Anyway, do I go for tried and true fit in Bauers, but what I consider to be just slightly off balance (for me) & performance in skating? Or do I give the Mako 2 a shot in what I hope is an innovative skate, hopefully comparable to Micron Megas or Daoust?

The main hangup I have is everything I've ever owned by Easton usually breaks down way too fast. I'd hate to spend roughly $800 and then regret it 6 - 12 months later!

I am currently in the Mako 2 and could not be happier. It is truly a one of a kind fit once you heat mold the skate. As someone who has worked the retail side of the business I can tell you for a fact the MAKO 2 skate has a real bad wrap because of a few defects from its previous version combined with a large price for a skate that will more likely then not feel absolutely horrible out of the box. I could not be happier with the skate the slight aggressive pitch and 360 custom fit is amazing.

Hope that helps.

[z1ggy 81]

Sorry I can't quote people, my browser is fussy:

@ smcgreg

1) I assume you did the T nut yourself? I feel like that a) I'm not confident enough nor do I want to drill into my boot to add custom T nut myself and b) I also doubt pure hockey, or hockey monkey would do that for me either. Obviously it's the preferred way, so I could add in shims, or even replace the holder at will.

2) How did he measure this? I really want to see pictures of just the steel alone, on whatever machine measures pitch. It's not that I don't believe people one way or another, but I just don't get how there can be guys in the industry telling me it's essentially neutral and all the pitch comes from the holder.

@ Larry54

Yes. I agree with you. I actually did this insole shim last night. I put in some Dr sholes "ball of the foot" type insert under my superfeet. Did not really feel all that great, nor do I think it would make much difference. hockey monkey guy suggested I use CCM custom insole, along with that Dr Shole gel pad under the ball of my foot, and that I could also add another thin insole in a layer with the insert, too. That might not feel good though because the skate is already pretty much at the limit of volume for me.

@AftfonDad

I think you and I had this convo a long time ago when I was deciding to go either VH or Mako. So it is your understanding and belief that if say, I sent my runners to NoIcing and asked for a +1 , that I'd get an overall total pitch of that skate of +2.5 (when measured)? Going along with the stuff I said above... I'd love to see pictures of the steel measured to show that it's actually that +1.5 (how is that possible btw if machines can only go in whole increments?).

I just don't want my skating to get completely screwed up. Right now, it's basically fine. It's causing me some pain in the Achilles and calve because I'm always on my toes. Not really a bad thing during the game. I do notice that when my wuads start getting tired, I tend to start "falling" over my toes a bit more. I don't fall, but I just get off balanced over my toes a bit more and it makes finishing up the shift tougher. I don't really trust people with my skates (have had bunch of bad sharpenings, etc) and if the blade actually is neutral, putting a +1 on it is going to be a disaster.

Edited February 18, 2015 by z1ggy

[AfftonDad 88]

@AftfonDad

I think you and I had this convo a long time ago when I was deciding to go either VH or Mako. So it is your understanding and belief that if say, I sent my runners to NoIcing and asked for a +1 , that I'd get an overall total pitch of that skate of +2.5 (when measured)? Going along with the stuff I said above... I'd love to see pictures of the steel measured to show that it's actually that +1.5 (how is that possible btw if machines can only go in whole increments?).

The guy that "measured" it is the guy who among other responsibilities is responsible for making sure that the constituent stores of a large national hockey store chain know how to sharpen, profile and perform all other skate and hockey equipment maintenance tasks. He used the blackstone profiling equipment to "measure" it. He placed the profiling bar on the machine and set up everything as though he was going to profile the brand new stock runners. He observed where/how the 0, +1, +2, and +3 settings touch the runner and where/how if he turned the machine on the grinding wheel would start cutting along the existing stock profile. He could tell that it was between +1 and +2, so we split the difference and called it +1.5. This method does not have the accuracy to measure 0.5 steps, but I do trust his position that it was between +1 and +2 (and his best guess was that it was around halfway between the two, so I'm going with +1.5)

I am 100% certain that your guy's statement that it is not "profiled ahead of time" is correct. No runner is profiled ahead of time (at least not on what we think of as profiling equipment). They are MANUFACTURED to the profile that they have. Which in almost all cases happens to be (at least intended to be) neutral. But I believe that ES4 runners are manufactured with forward pitch. I could be wrong though. Incidentally, I have seen several people on this thread mention that Step ES4 replacement steel is manufactured to a neutral pitch.

I can't quote either when I am using Internet Explorer. Quoting in Chrome works for me though. Have you tried Chrome?

Edited February 18, 2015 by AfftonDad

[smcgreg 81]

Sorry I can't quote people, my browser is fussy:

@ smcgreg

1) I assume you did the T nut yourself? I feel like that a) I'm not confident enough nor do I want to drill into my boot to add custom T nut myself and b) I also doubt pure hockey, or hockey monkey would do that for me either. Obviously it's the preferred way, so I could add in shims, or even replace the holder at will.

2) How did he measure this? I really want to see pictures of just the steel alone, on whatever machine measures pitch. It's not that I don't believe people one way or another, but I just don't get how there can be guys in the industry telling me it's essentially neutral and all the pitch comes from the holder.

I just don't want my skating to get completely screwed up. Right now, it's basically fine. It's causing me some pain in the Achilles and calve because I'm always on my toes. Not really a bad thing during the game. I do notice that when my wuads start getting tired, I tend to start "falling" over my toes a bit more. I don't fall, but I just get off balanced over my toes a bit more and it makes finishing up the shift tougher. I don't really trust people with my skates (have had bunch of bad sharpenings, etc) and if the blade actually is neutral, putting a +1 on it is going to be a disaster.

I did the T-nuts in collaboration with the guy who works on my skates at my local Total Hockey. I got the idea from various threads on this site that discuss the t-nut approach. The only thing I needed help with was pulling the rivets, once that was done, the t-nuts are cake. I picked mine up (the t-nuts and screws) from Home depot. After doing that, I use thin cutting board material (HDPE) for shims and can add/remove as desired. Ultimately, I want to move my holder in (medially) on one skate, but leaving that until the last and probably until Makos are on clearance, so, if I muck it up I can pick up a replacement cheap. For now, I'm close to the way I want things, but that holder needs to be moved on one skate.

How I measured it was by watching the two skate guys (one of whom you may "know" from this site ;) who are quite accomplished measuring the pitch with a micrometer while in the holder. Aftondad's approach may be a bit more accurate, but the bottom line is that we've both established, independently with accomplished skate tech guys that the ES4 is definitely pitched out of the box. To Aftondad's point, my ES4 replacement steel from Easton had a similar (~ +1) pitch out of the box.

To your final point, your observations are very much like my feelings. That being said, the Makos fit so well out of the box for me (with a caveat below), combined with the fact that I bought into the "hype" about it was a better approach to skating, that I ignored the "bad" feelings I had about skating and just thought I needed to adapt. I think I probably have adapted somewhat and who knows, it may have helped. But there is no doubt that even after skating a lot on the Makos for 2 years, after neutralizing the pitch of the runner, I am skating much, much better. Bear in mind that even with a neutral runner, it's still a pretty aggressive skate, with ~ +2 on the holder alone.

*one other thing I would note regarding your observation: I got some achilles pain initially from the Mako. I thought it was a normal break in pain, so, let it go. It got very bad though and I now have "scarred" achilles. (It got to the point I couldn't skate for a while). If you feel the achilles pain is from the boot rather than the pitch, you might want to try punching out that area where the tendon guard meets the boot. That was what caused the issue for me and once I punched it out it was much better. I left it too long though, so, you might want to address it.

[z1ggy 81]

@ AfftonDad

I'm at work and we can only use IE, unfortunately.

Okay your statement makes muuuuuuch more sense to me now. So technically, monkey guy is correct in a way, but probably hasn't worked with Mako's much. Even though he did wear them for a while, he probably never thought about or messed with profiling too much. Now that I think about it too, I remember watching some video of the MLX guy talking about Mako (the concept) right when the original was released. I actually remember him saying, and I paraphrase, "...Taking a little bit of steel off the front.." in regards to the aggressive nature of the skate and how it puts you in that "ready to go" stance. Sending my runners to NoIcing is kind of a no- go though, unless I am willing to wear my old Bauers for a game, or skip a game completely. I play so much these days that I assume the standard turn around time wouldn't be enough for me. I live about 45 mins away from Pure Hockey and 90 mins from Hockey Monkey. I really cringe at the thought of not knowing the person who touches my skates. Literally my entire life, I have known the person who sharpens my skates and I trust them. I'm a bit of a control freak (and perfectionist).

@smcgreg

I think for now, I will probably take the advice here and ask somebody to profile my blade to +1 @ 9'ft radius. If AfftonDad is correct in that the runner pitch is +1.5, I think that should do the trick for me. I do like the more aggressive stance compared to my Vapors. I have never skated better, both forward and backwards before (especially backwards) but I think +3 is just a bit too much. As far as the pain goes, it's not from any rubbing, it's from skating 3-4 times a week, with that constant tension on my calves, due to being up on the toes so much. I really need to take care to foam roll and stretch my calves out every single day. I'd prefer to not take the skate apart, but if I did, I'd probably just suck Tuuks on, and put a +1 on the runner for a bit more aggressive angle (so skate would be +2 overall). Also, if +1 is still too much, I'll have it put to +0 and I'm guessing that would be totally fine. When I went from +1 overall in Tuuks, to this, I honestly didn't feel like it was a crazy jump between the two.

Edited February 18, 2015 by z1ggy

[AfftonDad 88]

I think for now, I will probably take the advice here and ask somebody to profile my blade to +1 @ 9'ft radius.

Keep in mind that if the +1.5 value on the ES4 runner IS correct, profiling to +1 will be at most a slight change (a smaller change than the profiling equipment is able to do). So it may not be enough to put you where you want to be (and if smcgreg's number is correct, it would be NO change). I'd hate to have you waste $35 and some steel.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AfftonDad

[chippa13 1844]

Shims are the ideal solution, but that requires taking the holder off. For me personally, saying "hey profile these please" via mail-order sharpening was much easier. It's not like the profiling can't be fixed down the road if you desire.

I wouldn't say that shims are the ideal solution. Speaking for myself, I prefer not to add extra material between my foot and the ice as it takes away some of that feel.

[z1ggy 81]

@ AfftonDad

Good point. Maybe going to "+0" (is that even a thing?) would be better. Also, wouldn't I really ask for them to do a -1? I assume there is no bar for +0 on a profile, since it seems like every runner on the market comes neutral, and the pitch comes purely from the holder. So by putting on the -1 bar on my skate, he'd be taking the +1 to a "+0" overall.

I'm still hesitant because when I called pure hockey and asked if they could profile my runner to be more neutral (told them I had Mako II) and the kid was like, " uhhh yeah, we do radius'ing." *facepalm*. I better call and ask to speak to the guy who actually does the profiling to see if he's ever done this before. If not, I'll have to remove them and send them to NoIcing, as it sounds like they have most definitely dealt with this scenario before.

[AfftonDad 88]

Yes 0 is definitely a thing. I tried it and felt it reduced the pitch too much for me (although I like the full CXN/ES4 pitch). If you wanted to lessen the stock pitch by approximately +1 to +1.5 and leaving a total skate/runner pitch afterwards of approximately +2 to +1.5 (depending on who's number is correct), you would tell him to set the profiling equipment to 0.

In other words setting the profiling equipment to (depending on who's number is correct)...

+2 would result in a TOTAL pitch of +3.5 to +4

+1 would result in a TOTAL pitch of +2.5 to +3

0 would result in a TOTAL pitch of +1.5 to +2

-1 would result in a TOTAL pitch of +0.5 to +1... etc.

The bars have nothing to do with the pitch. They only have to do with the radius. The pitch is set by a knob that controls something you could think of sort of as a push rod that is offset from the center of the runner. The knob causes the runner/skate (toe if I recall correctly) to be translated by 1/32" increments for each click at some fixed distance from the center point of the skate (I don't recall what the distance is but I quickly/coarsely measured it once before and could find it if necessary). This causes an angular rotation about the center point of the runner/skate. Each click of the knob is what is referred to as +1, +2, +3, etc.

Once again, all just my understanding... I could be wrong.

EDIT:

The best way to get to where you want to be on pitch is going to always be trial and error. I remember seeing one of those behind the scenes shows on NHL Network and the equipment manager and the player were iteratively messing with the pitch of a runner in almost real time at a practice using feedback from the player to get to where he wanted to be. Now of course they have the luxury of not having to worry about using up the steel, paying $35, waiting for it to get done, finding another opportunity to skate to see if you like it and then repeating the process several times.

Edited February 18, 2015 by AfftonDad

[smcgreg 81]

I wouldn't say that shims are the ideal solution. Speaking for myself, I prefer not to add extra material between my foot and the ice as it takes away some of that feel.

I know you weren't replying to me, but I agree on this. As I indicated earlier, if profiling/sharpener consistency wasn't an issue/concern, profiling is probably the better approach. Some problems can't be fixed by profiling (e.g. pronation), though, so, sometimes shims are the only approach aside from boot surgery.