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malcb33

55 Flex- Improves skate flex

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Show me one player in todays skates that could not use some additional forward flex? Not many.....K being funny but yes any and everyone could benefit if if just a slight bit.

Cogliano and Gaborik.

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I still don't understand why people need skates that are way too stiff for them when they are playing at a level where they likely won't benefit from them. That's the only reason why the 55 flex will sell.

Don't get me wrong, it looks like a great concept and clearly based on feed back users are noticing a change, but couldn't this all be avoided if a) you made sure your skates fit correctly. And b) you didn't buy the stiffest skate on the market when they aren't going to benefit you to the same extent as a pro?

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I still don't understand why people need skates that are way too stiff for them when they are playing at a level where they likely won't benefit from them. That's the only reason why the 55 flex will sell.

Don't get me wrong, it looks like a great concept and clearly based on feed back users are noticing a change, but couldn't this all be avoided if a) you made sure your skates fit correctly. And b) you didn't buy the stiffest skate on the market when they aren't going to benefit you to the same extent as a pro?

Yes and no.

If you did as suggested and purchased the best fit for your foot. The set up of the boot may still not offer the best forward flex without alterations such as lifts and pitch forward. This helps eliminate doing both and allows less alterations.

Cogliano and Gaborik.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Cogliano+skating&es_sm=119&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Ob5-U-2WB4O38AHO7oHIDw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=628#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=exrB5F1YakCM5M%253A%3BwEnTig9VD1kSzM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F3.bp.blogspot.com%252F_CcVh5in4icU%252FTIrf0uBoh9I%252FAAAAAAAAAP8%252F_nQug95uzSM%252Fs1600%252Fcogliano%252Bat%252Ball%252Bstars.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F2sidesofthefemalehockeyfan.blogspot.com%252F2010_09_01_archive.html%3B666%3B498

sorry dont know how to add links...

Although both amazing skaters I work with Cogs in the summer. If I was to use what I have learned from all of this i would say both would benefit because both bend at the waist and the knees. If you added even more forward at the knees they could keep their upper body even straighter and produce the same power per stride.

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Is bending at the waist back bad when you also bend at the knees? It gets the core involved in the push (@2:30). I just mentioned those two because both skate knee over toe even though they're in Bauers.

The "don't bend at the waist" thing is such a mantra. I see how it develops from telling kids they have to bend their knees to get stride, not their backs, but a curved back is part of a full push, otherwise those muscles are idle. Gaborik is much better at this. When he's carrying the puck in traffic, he sits up, but he's still fast enough skating at 70% to navigate through traffic and keep the play moving forward, but in full-stride, he curls his back. MacKinnon also does this.

I know this got split off into a different thread before, so I don't want to go down that whole detour again, but instead I'm asking in all sincerity: how is 55-flex different than Graf's 707/G7?

Edited by flip12

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Is bending at the waist back bad when you also bend at the knees? It gets the core involved in the push (@2:30). I just mentioned those two because both skate knee over toe even though they're in Bauers.

The "don't bend at the waist" thing is such a mantra. I see how it develops from telling kids they have to bend their knees to get stride, not their backs, but a curved back is part of a full push, otherwise those muscles are idle. Gaborik is much better at this. When he's carrying the puck in traffic, he sits up, but he's still fast enough skating at 70% to navigate through traffic and keep the play moving forward, but in full-stride, he curls his back. MacKinnon also does this.

I know this got split off into a different thread before, so I don't want to go down that whole detour again, but instead I'm asking in all sincerity: how is 55-flex different than Graf's 707/G7?

In that video, you're talking about speed skating technique. Bending at the waist and back does not contribute to a more powerful push, at least, not to the extent you see in the video. The reason speed skaters practice bending like that is for aerodynamics and they need to hold that position because power output is exponentially related to velocity over sustained efforts once a constant speed is attained. Once they become fatigued, they have difficulty holding that position and slow down as a result of aerodynamics (in addition to fatigue of the muscles directly involved in propulsion). For hockey, constant speed is almost never sustained and so an aerodynamic position is only useful when racing full ice to get to a puck or maybe as a defenseman to catch somebody from behind. Still, the accelerations are vastly more important and therefore, the hunched over back is going to compromise acceleration and hence speed, rather than enhance it. Some bend at the waist is certainly desirable and warranted, but not like that in the example and probably more in line with the desired ankle bend. In other words a parallel shank and torso is probably the most desirable bend and probably something along the lines that 55 flex can provide at the ankle.

As far as your other point about Grafs, I know you weren't addressing me, but for many who have a skate that fits and they like, the Grafs are not an option. Myself, I have Makos and I"m likely not going to another brand any time soon. So, the 55flex is a relatively inexpensive way to get additional flex at the ankle and keep the fit I like.

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I'd venture a guess that bending forward at the waist helps with balance when accelerating to a high speed, so I can see why it'll be useful in hockey as well. Not to that extreme though, I'd say.

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In that video, you're talking about speed skating technique. Bending at the waist and back does not contribute to a more powerful push, at least, not to the extent you see in the video. The reason speed skaters practice bending like that is for aerodynamics and they need to hold that position because power output is exponentially related to velocity over sustained efforts once a constant speed is attained. Once they become fatigued, they have difficulty holding that position and slow down as a result of aerodynamics (in addition to fatigue of the muscles directly involved in propulsion). For hockey, constant speed is almost never sustained and so an aerodynamic position is only useful when racing full ice to get to a puck or maybe as a defenseman to catch somebody from behind. Still, the accelerations are vastly more important and therefore, the hunched over back is going to compromise acceleration and hence speed, rather than enhance it. Some bend at the waist is certainly desirable and warranted, but not like that in the example and probably more in line with the desired ankle bend. In other words a parallel shank and torso is probably the most desirable bend and probably something along the lines that 55 flex can provide at the ankle.

As far as your other point about Grafs, I know you weren't addressing me, but for many who have a skate that fits and they like, the Grafs are not an option. Myself, I have Makos and I"m likely not going to another brand any time soon. So, the 55flex is a relatively inexpensive way to get additional flex at the ankle and keep the fit I like.

I agree, it's not a factor to the same degree and for the reasons you give. But even in the speed development phases up to constant velocity, there is back curl. See this video of Lee Kong-Seok's world record 500, on slow motion for even better analysis. In his first stride, his back is pretty much straight, but then every stride after that he curls a little bit more, until eventually he's in that full tuck.

I'd venture a guess that bending forward at the waist helps with balance when accelerating to a high speed, so I can see why it'll be useful in hockey as well. Not to that extreme though, I'd say.

I agree with this, I think this may be the effect I'm trying to describe more than actually using your core to push with your legs, but if your balance is centered over those muscles, you get a stronger, fuller push (longer stride length?), so it's hard to separate one from the other.

A lot of the best skaters in the league exhibit this: Raymond, Grabner, Hagelin, Samsonov, Fedorov. I would be surprised if this were just a coincidentally lingering effect of bad form that never got corrected in all of these anecdotals because these were always the fastest kids on their teams growing up. Even if that were the case, there should be some who got to be the fastest by focusing on "perfect" upright technique. But who among the elite skates like that?

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I agree, it's not a factor to the same degree and for the reasons you give. But even in the speed development phases up to constant velocity, there is back curl. See this video of Lee Kong-Seok's world record 500, on slow motion for even better analysis. In his first stride, his back is pretty much straight, but then every stride after that he curls a little bit more, until eventually he's in that full tuck.

I agree with this, I think this may be the effect I'm trying to describe more than actually using your core to push with your legs, but if your balance is centered over those muscles, you get a stronger, fuller push (longer stride length?), so it's hard to separate one from the other.

A lot of the best skaters in the league exhibit this: Raymond, Grabner, Hagelin, Samsonov, Fedorov. I would be surprised if this were just a coincidentally lingering effect of bad form that never got corrected in all of these anecdotals because these were always the fastest kids on their teams growing up. Even if that were the case, there should be some who got to be the fastest by focusing on "perfect" upright technique. But who among the elite skates like that?

Not to be argumentative... ;) , but I think you just proved my point. In the early acceleration phases of the 500, he has a fairly upright posture, probably moreso than most, if not all of your NHL examples. In your "a little bit more" clip, that is right about on par with what it would look like for a good hockey acceleration. Again, when he is in the full tuck, that's all about aerodynamics and definitely not about powerful push. It's a compromise on two accounts as he is 1) already fatiguing and producing much less power than in the first few strides/seconds and 2) at roughly constant speed, so, the economics of air resistance are balanced with relatively lower power to maintain speed. Maybe we're talking past ourselves and actually agreeing, but I guess I don't see your point. Most if not all accomplished power skating coaches argue for an ankle flex and torso flex that are roughly equivalent. I don't think anybody would argue for skating straight up or with a completely straight back.

Your NHL clips are difficult to put a whole lot of stock in because they are mostly 1) static, so, may not be indicative of the full stride and 2) mostly involving a puck, which changes the optimal stride position.

At this point, I'll assume we both agree and are simply affirming each other's points.

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I disagree with the notion that there is one perfect mechanical stride that applies to everyone. Our bodies are not machines built to exact specifications. There are variances in limb and torso length in proportion to the rest of the body. Centre of gravity varies, etc.

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Not to be argumentative... ;) , but I think you just proved my point.

At this point, I'll assume we both agree and are simply affirming each other's points.

Yes. That's why I began my reply above with, "I agree..."

Can a world class speed skater actually be significantly fatiguing less 9-seconds into a race? I think he's tucking just because he's peaking, speed-wise, which you mention at one point, but I doubt fatigue is significantly at play in his posture in the first 100m.

Your NHL clips are difficult to put a whole lot of stock in because they are mostly 1) static, so, may not be indicative of the full stride and 2) mostly involving a puck, which changes the optimal stride position.

I'm confused by what you mean with "static." Most photos are time-slices so small as to look like an instantaneous moment, but even so, I can read what they're doing with their bodies there. Raymond is not casually pursuing the puck, Samsonov and Fedorov show players accelerating, with an awareness needed quickness due to time pressure. About (2), the only photo involving the puck is Fedorov (maybe Samsonov too, but I think he's just getting open for a pass). Grabner and Hagelin are participating in fastest skater races. Even with the Fedorov shot, he has the puck, but he's in getaway mode, and very similar in posture to those acceleration strides from the 500 clip.

I disagree with the notion that there is one perfect mechanical stride that applies to everyone. Our bodies are not machines built to exact specifications. There are variances in limb and torso length in proportion to the rest of the body. Centre of gravity varies, etc.

Indeed, such a notion would be absurd. There are general guidelines for what's good to do with things like knees, ankles, backs and arms. The actual implementation varies of course.

My point with regards to 55-flex (I really think it's a great idea and product, but ultimately one that is a critique of skate overstructuring more than anything) is this,

Although both amazing skaters I work with Cogs in the summer. If I was to use what I have learned from all of this i would say both would benefit because both bend at the waist and the knees. If you added even more forward at the knees they could keep their upper body even straighter and produce the same power per stride.

That attempt to correct bending at the back. That's a classic point of hockey skating technique, but is it a bad thing? I don't think so, and even though the extremes of back form seen is speed skating don't apply to hockey, the general idea does, and the form observed in both world class speed skaters and world-class hockey players points to more similarity here than difference, correcting for similar skating phases, i.e., most hockey players don't spend much time in 5th-gear, full speed stride mode, especially in games.

Edited by flip12

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For what it's worth, as an 18 year old, I was considered an elite skater, (faster than several friends that went on to professional careers). I skated with a curl in my back and waist bend. When trying to achieve top end straight away speed, I got as low as possible to the ice and generated most of my power from the quads. I know its not the supposed perfect technique, but it worked for me.

I think the 55 flex is a good product because it solves the problem with modern skates, which is that they are all too stiff. We've been brainwashed with the stiffer is better fallacy. Players like Bure, Coffey and Gartner were faster than almost all current NHLers and they wore softer skates.

Just my 2 cents.

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For what it's worth, as an 18 year old, I was considered an elite skater, (faster than several friends that went on to professional careers). I skated with a curl in my back and waist bend. When trying to achieve top end straight away speed, I got as low as possible to the ice and generated most of my power from the quads. I know its not the supposed perfect technique, but it worked for me.

I think the 55 flex is a good product because it solves the problem with modern skates, which is that they are all too stiff. We've been brainwashed with the stiffer is better fallacy. Players like Bure, Coffey and Gartner were faster than almost all current NHLers and they wore softer skates.

Just my 2 cents.

Another reason besides not gaining as much power as you could from using the core and using just your quads by bending over is if your head is down you are less likely to see some hits that are coming. Carolina Hurricanes jeff skinner was doing this when he was hit and suffered his concussion. if he had been less bent in the replay the head contact may not have happened. He has since worked on doing this and is skating more upright now. Top end skater.....Figure Skating Champion and fantastic Ice Hockey Skater!

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Another reason besides not gaining as much power as you could from using the core and using just your quads by bending over is if your head is down you are less likely to see some hits that are coming. Carolina Hurricanes jeff skinner was doing this when he was hit and suffered his concussion. if he had been less bent in the replay the head contact may not have happened. He has since worked on doing this and is skating more upright now. Top end skater.....Figure Skating Champion and fantastic Ice Hockey Skater!

If your head is down you definitely are less likely to see hits coming. Didn't Patrik Stefan also have a problem with that? He skated about as upright as anyone I've ever seen. Seems like it's more of a vision and awareness issue than a posture issue.

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Aarron Ekblad (projected top 2 pick) wears them, interesting, the guy has an amazing stride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rSs-u5ZU5E

it must all be in the 55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxQm7yawyNs

on the fence still for my 11yr old, the top skating CHL player wearing them gives me a bit more confidence in buying, would love to see some more reviews.

Edited by tro

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The difference is how thick your leg is and how much you are coming out of the boot. I had a 9 year old be able to use Large. He was a very thick young man and weighed 95lbs. He really liked them and is loving the flex he has with out the sideways flexion.

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The difference is how thick your leg is and how much you are coming out of the boot. I had a 9 year old be able to use Large. He was a very thick young man and weighed 95lbs. He really liked them and is loving the flex he has with out the sideways flexion.

So most men would probably go for the large then?

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So most men would probably go for the large then?

Not necessarily. It's not simply a matter of leg thickness - it's leg thickness relative to boot depth.

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Exactly. If your boot depth is shallow and an average leg then probably large if your in a Supreme and you have a narrow leg then small. It is a combination correct. Or simply put if your foot is sitting close to if not outside the lacing at the top go large. If it is sitting ok in the boot go small.

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Has anyone had the plastic break around one of the lace holes? If so, how have you fixed it? Super glue?

I can't imagine superglue holding that.

On a somewhat related note, any ideas on securing the pads underneath the plastic? (not to you specifically)

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Aarron Ekblad (projected top 2 pick) wears them, interesting, the guy has an amazing stride.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rSs-u5ZU5E

it must all be in the 55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxQm7yawyNs

on the fence still for my 11yr old, the top skating CHL player wearing them gives me a bit more confidence in buying, would love to see some more reviews.

No he doesn't. He looks like he's actually trying to kick himself in the ass w/ every follow through. He may be fast, but it sure ain't efficient or pretty.

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