Anyone know if the LS EDGE rentention system broke or was it the blade

[jimmy 194]

No problems on the retail front that I've seen so far. Like JR said, no reason to panic.

As an aside, I hate how people think that there's a problem with a stick's durability if a couple people start to complain about it. Maybe such simple irrationality is what irks me lol

No problems on the retail side either. I think it is designed well. As with any product, there will be failures, anything mechanical will fail. One has to take what they read on boards with a grain of salt as anecdotal problems tend to get posted and skew opinions on products. If there were real issues, they would show all over the retail spectrum.

[Stewie 721]

The "we sent a man to the moon" analogy doesn't work. After we sent a man to the moon, Columbia happened.

In this case, it seems like failure is rarely an issue anyways

[SCOMPL 14]

JR was the stamkos incident from Pittsburg on the 12th a different holder?

Sorry, I'm not JR, but I can prove it was not a LightSpeed Edge holder. If you look closely at the video, you'll notice Stamkos' holders have the "Tuuk" offset in front of the "swoosh" and the letters parallel to the boot heel. On the new LightSpeed Edge holder, the "Tuuk" is centered above a different "swoosh" and is not parallel to the heel of the boot. What you see on the inside of his right skate is a puck mark.

Here is a still image from the video: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/75086194/Stamkos%20Blade%20Incident.jpg

Here is a picture of my Total One NXG with LightSpeed Edge 2 holder, with a LightSpeed Edge holder beneath it: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/75086194/IMG_1217.JPG

[SCOMPL 14]

Also, here is another still image from the video, clearly showing 5 holes in the mid-portion of the holder: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/75086194/Stamkos%20Blade%20Incident%202.jpg

The LightSpeed Edge only has 4.

Lastly, if anyone wants to question the durability of LightSpeed Edge vs LightSpeed 2, here are just a few of the videos showing NHL players losing a blade in LightSpeed 2's:

Daniel Alfredsson (Ottawa Senators) 2013 Stanley Cup Playoffs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS5xDpZp24 (Bauer APX 2 skate, but LightSpeed 2 holders)

Mike Rupp (Minnesota Wild) 2013 Stanely Cup Playoffs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7wRxibIWIs

Tom Wilson (Washington Capitals) 2013 Stanley Cup Playoffs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4odQQb-Wr8

Stephane Robidas (Dallas Stars) 2011-2012 Regular Season: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07B7UMlU8gU

[Stewie 721]

I think if you got 4 skates out of 5 with this issue, others who run shops etc would've seen it by now

[DarkStar50 679]

I'm old enough to remember taking the CCM Prolite tubular steel blades off my Super Tacks in 1977 and switching to the first black Tuuks. I then worked in a shop when the first clear Tuuk was brought to market. This was done after a lot of black Tuuks cracked and they thought removing the die might help. R D & D was known then as put it in a game setting and see what happens. Well, a lot of clear Tuuks cracked too. I learned quickly how to work a riveting machine back then with all the black and clear Tuuks I replaced and later returned to Crow Smith in Massena, NY for credit. Now if the internet was around in 1977, I guess no one would ever have switched to Tuuks and players today would still be in CCM Prolite tubular steel blades.

[mojo122 538]

My shop got so fed up with my broken Tuuks that they gave me a choice between ICM or Perfecta's!

[DarkStar50 679]

Perfecta's were a bitch to sharpen.

[bunnyman666 445]

If anything, NHL-ers are the ultimate test bed for new stuff. Problems comes and go, and usually the manufacturer takes notes from the failed products and makes it better for the end user. When I as a sponsored athlete (not in hockey, btw), we were a test bed for everything new. If we like the new stuff, we'd use it in a tune-up event. If they got it right from the start, we used it in bigger events. Anything that was broken was returned for R&D.

You probably won't see quite so many steels falling from holders much by the time the play-offs come around.

[mojo122 538]

Perfecta's were a bitch to sharpen.

Being no Gretzky I went the ICM route.

[Chadd 916]

If anything, NHL-ers are the ultimate test bed for new stuff.

I disagree. Their product needs are vastly different from those of most players. Products designed for pro level use will not usually be all that beneficial to amateur players. Golf is an excellent example, there are not many players with pro level swing speeds, yet I know a ton of people using XX-stiff shafts on their drivers.

[bunnyman666 445]

I disagree. Their product needs are vastly different from those of most players. Products designed for pro level use will not usually be all that beneficial to amateur players. Golf is an excellent example, there are not many players with pro level swing speeds, yet I know a ton of people using XX-stiff shafts on their drivers.

I even agree with you on most pro products not benefitting consumers in their current form; however, the stuff the pros use trickle down to us. And of course when we find out that (fictitious name coming) Stuarto Pidasso uses a 195 flex shaft cut down nine inches, we want to see if that would benefit us, 'cos Stu is so great.

Not every single part of the innovation gets to Joe Consumer, but things like short cuffs, full-length hockey pants, two piece aluminium and composite (and ultimately one-piece sticks) and many other things end up tried on the consumer.

When I was on a factory sponsored bike team,I had a pair of prototype glasses that were not ever released to the public. I also had a prototype chainwheel on my crankset that ended up being a product, albeit dumbed down considerably for the public. 9/10 sport riders could never turn it over as my version had 58 teeth!!! But down the ramp in a TT, it was awesome!!!! But it was also heavier than anyone would accept. But it had great advertising (as it was solid and big enough for logos). My (and several others' ) version would have been a flop.

Pros in any sport have stuff that isn't suitable for the consumer, but parts of it end up in consumer products. So I do stand by my statement that the pros are the ultimate test bed for any new product.

[boo10 323]

I find it somewhat amusing that the guys on this forum who work in retail seem to have the attitude that "If I haven't seen it in my store, it's not an issue". I'm inclined to give some consideration to the opinion of the guy working in the GTA where the sample size dwarfs any other market, particularly in the US. Without trying to sound like a complete ass, do any of you really understand the size of the Toronto hockey market? Michigan and Minnesota might be large US hockey markets, but they are tiny by Toronto standards. If there are issues with a particular piece of equipment, it will more than likely show up in the GTA just because of the number of people playing the sport in that market.

[Stewie 721]

i believe products are developed for mass sales first and foremost. The NHL guys often use modified versions of everything to their specific tastes, so that its way different than anything we end up with on a retail market. It would be very bad for Companies to tailor product needs on the very specific tastes of their NHL pros. In the end, the ones that test the products, more often than not, I believe are R and D style people, your not going to test a new holder system on a guy making 6 mill a year going full blast into a corner.

In the end, product names in the NHL are mostly advertizing, each player is going to go with what they are comfortble with, and what they feels gives them a competitive edge, not what Reebok/ccm/bauer thinks should be tested on them.

to the end of wether or not this is an issue, I am going to bow out. I dont know anything really about Bauer or Tuuk Holders, as i havent used one regularly since 2000. What I do know, is that JR is very anayltical whenever he sharpens my skates, or anyone elses I have seen him do, so irregardless on wether or not Michigan is an inferior hockey market, ill trust his judgement on this one.

But here this, just because a market is larger, doesnt mean the volumes seen by individual shops/owners/etc are necessarily larger, as i bet there are also more people sharpening skates in the GTA

[althoma1 575]

I believe oldtrainerguy28 would see issues sooner than the average retailer because he's working with a lot of adult players that are on the ice daily and push equipment hard. The Junior and Pro players would deal with equipment managers when they have issues so the LHS doesn't see those. The LHS would deal with plenty of competitive players that are on the ice often, but most of them would be younger players that don't stress the products as much as a full size adult would. The full sized adults that the LHS deals with are often beer league players like most of us that are only on the ice a couple times a week.

Equipment issues will be evident in a few months of use for high level, heavy players who are constantly on the ice, but it may take a couple years for those same issues to appear for the average beer league player or a child playing competitive hockey.

I don't have any experience with the Edge holders myself, but oldtrainerguy's comments do carry weight in my opinion and if the product isn't changed then the average consumer may have issues in a year or two.

[AIREAYE 248]

I find it somewhat amusing that the guys on this forum who work in retail seem to have the attitude that "If I haven't seen it in my store, it's not an issue". I'm inclined to give some consideration to the opinion of the guy working in the GTA where the sample size dwarfs any other market, particularly in the US. Without trying to sound like a complete ass, do any of you really understand the size of the Toronto hockey market? Michigan and Minnesota might be large US hockey markets, but they are tiny by Toronto standards. If there are issues with a particular piece of equipment, it will more than likely show up in the GTA just because of the number of people playing the sport in that market.

Don't know if you were talking about me, but in case you were, I never expressed that attitude, but simply communicated what I've seen. JR never expressed that attitude either.

oldtrainerguy and I are on the retail side in the GTA and we have expressed different observations on the issue. I believe he deals with more of the sharpening/tech work (feel free to correct me Jeff if I've dumbed down your business too much lol) while I'm in a place that deals with head-to-toe gear, with a large emphasis and sales of Bauer, particularly Vapor this year since it's a Vapor year.

[boo10 323]

to the end of wether or not this is an issue, I am going to bow out. I dont know anything really about Bauer or Tuuk Holders, as i havent used one regularly since 2000. What I do know, is that JR is very anayltical whenever he sharpens my skates, or anyone elses I have seen him do, so irregardless on wether or not Michigan is an inferior hockey market, ill trust his judgement on this one.

But here this, just because a market is larger, doesnt mean the volumes seen by individual shops/owners/etc are necessarily larger, as i bet there are also more people sharpening skates in the GTA

Please do not misconstrue my statement about market size. I in no way implied that any market is "Inferior" to the GTA. What I am saying is that the number of active hockey players in that market is significantly larger than any other hockey market in the world.

Also, my comment was not intended to be "A shot" at anyone on this board, although I can see how it would be taken as such, so I apologize to anyone who has taken offense. The retail people here are much more knowledgeable than I in these matters. My intent was to offer support to Oldtrainerguy, as some other members are dismissing his opinion as anecdotal.

Aireaye, I've read many of your posts on this board and others and have the utmost respect for you. You're always helpful and insightful, and have helped me personally make my latest skate purchase decision. Cheers!

[Stewie 721]

im sorry, it may have been lost in translation, the point i meant was I dont think you can easily dismiss one persons opinion based solely on market. Oldtrainerguy knows more than me about this, and could very well be correct, but i dont know him personally, so in that, i trust JR a little more.

I meant nothing more or less than that =)

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

When did this turn into a pissing contest? Oh, I know when...when Jeff said "Hey, what do I know?" And somehow now me and him are being scrutinized - Jeff - I appreciate your opinion, but by making that comment, you shit on everyone else's observation by drawing a line on "who knows more." I respect what you have to say, but that comment definitely derailed this thread.

To recap my thoughts:

I merely said I haven't seen them in my store.

Nor have I seen anyone on this website mention that they had one drop.

Nor have I heard from another retailer, product manager, competitor product manager, equipment manager that they have seen this.

Now, if when the LS Edge came to market, there were a ton of dropped blades, I may be inclined to think there's a problem. However, in the 7 months that it has been out on the market, we have ONE incident to report at the NHL level, and we aren't even sure if the blade broke (like I said, apparently he never went back to the locker room) and one thought from a skate technician that he's seen loose blades.

[McDugan 89]

A couple thoughts, from my layman's perspective:

1. This is the kind of thing that has a high potential for expectation bias - i.e. with knowledge of how the holder mechanism works, and the idea in mind that it could be prone to failure, is one more likely to blame the holder for a problem that may or may not actually exist as a direct result of a design flaw?

2. There is catastrophic failure (a blade pops out during a game because of one specific impact) and there is non-catastrophic failure (the mechanism weakens over time or has flaws that prevent optimum performance). Perhaps the Edge holder is, to some degree, more prone to one or both types of failure than the LS2 but does the benefit of the steel-swapping system outweigh the added risk, if there is any? I would imagine that for many situations, it does.

[Cosmic 178]

JR its pretty simple solution and one I should have done from the beginning. I will send you the video so you can validate what I have found and then we can go from there.

I believe it to be an issue. That being said I may have gone a little over board after the first comment however I do not appreciate the silly jokes when in my mind its a very serious issue. Not so much the product itself but the possibly problems it may cause. And to be honest it's not so much the ones falling out but the ones moving in the holder. On push off the flex from large player the bend is greatly increased over time. I am not going to sit here and say I do this with so and so and all that crap but I have moved on from retail and am working with many more Pro's both inside and outside of my little shop. I am in dressing rooms all the time now and I am just saying this is what I am hearing and seeing. Are the trainers going to make a big deal.....No..they all are at this time worried about jobs. So they are doing what they can and not making big stinks.

So lets just leave it at this. I personally have found an issue with the edge holder. I would ask that others check the skates they do and see if this is an up and coming issue or just a issue with a small segment of maybe some early production products!

The problems that you are seeing- Does it make a difference as to the steel that the players are using? It seems the Fusion steel is a bit more flexible than the LS2 or LS3 steel or BlackEdge, etc. I am a bigger player (6'2, 215 lbs), not a great or particularly hard skater, but I am a strong guy I suppose who will generate some torque on my skates. I am about to install the LS Edge Holder with LS3 steel onto a pair of Mission Axiom T9 skates and just curious if you think I might get into trouble with these problems that you have been seeing. Time will tell, if there is anything I can do as I am making the installation (or conversion of whatever one calls it), then I am all ears.

I intentionally stayed away from the Fusion steel for the simple reason that I read about all the problems that people were anticipating, or how all the pros were all swapping out the Fusion steel because they generate so much torque that they would snap it. Not sure if this is true, just saying, this is what I have read, so I just played it safe and went with the LS3 steel for its apparently higher durability factor.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Yes I have found less torque in LS 3 then Fusion but yes down the road there is still more play then a LS2 holder and say the Blackedge. I am actually starting to like the BE runners over say the RZR however still a fair amount of work to profile how ever I like the amount of skates you get out of sharpening.

I personally am not sold at all on the Edge holder simply for the reason of play. Nevermind the fact of blades coming out from shots etc.

[DarkStar50 679]

JR its pretty simple solution and one I should have done from the beginning. I will send you the video so you can validate what I have found and then we can go from there.

I believe it to be an issue. That being said I may have gone a little over board after the first comment however I do not appreciate the silly jokes when in my mind its a very serious issue. Not so much the product itself but the possibly problems it may cause. And to be honest it's not so much the ones falling out but the ones moving in the holder. On push off the flex from large player the bend is greatly increased over time. I am not going to sit here and say I do this with so and so and all that crap but I have moved on from retail and am working with many more Pro's both inside and outside of my little shop. I am in dressing rooms all the time now and I am just saying this is what I am hearing and seeing. Are the trainers going to make a big deal.....No..they all are at this time worried about jobs. So they are doing what they can and not making big stinks.

So lets just leave it at this. I personally have found an issue with the edge holder. I would ask that others check the skates they do and see if this is an up and coming issue or just a issue with a small segment of maybe some early production products!

I respect your opinion, your knowledge, and the level of players you are working with that comes with the territory. I highlighted that comment only because I'm confused by it. I understand trainers being worried about their jobs but who do they answer to? The players, the team, team management or Bauer? Why would a trainer risk putting a player on ice in an inferior product(if he believes it to be), compromising performance, player safety, and team success? Just curious about this with your level of experience dealing with pro team equipment guys daily. Thanks.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I respect your opinion, your knowledge, and the level of players you are working with that comes with the territory. I highlighted that comment only because I'm confused by it. I understand trainers being worried about their jobs but who do they answer to? The players, the team, team management or Bauer? Why would a trainer risk putting a player on ice in an inferior product(if he believes it to be), compromising performance, player safety, and team success? Just curious about this with your level of experience dealing with pro team equipment guys daily. Thanks.

Not dragging this out pm'ed. Will not be posting anymore on this topic. If you have another question or think I am wrong please PM to discuss thanks!

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

At the end of the day, it's going to be the EQM who decides what is on the boot. That is why you've seen adoption in teams like WSH and LA and none in CHI.

The problems that you are seeing- Does it make a difference as to the steel that the players are using? It seems the Fusion steel is a bit more flexible than the LS2 or LS3 steel or BlackEdge, etc. I am a bigger player (6'2, 215 lbs), not a great or particularly hard skater, but I am a strong guy I suppose who will generate some torque on my skates. I am about to install the LS Edge Holder with LS3 steel onto a pair of Mission Axiom T9 skates and just curious if you think I might get into trouble with these problems that you have been seeing. Time will tell, if there is anything I can do as I am making the installation (or conversion of whatever one calls it), then I am all ears.

I intentionally stayed away from the Fusion steel for the simple reason that I read about all the problems that people were anticipating, or how all the pros were all swapping out the Fusion steel because they generate so much torque that they would snap it. Not sure if this is true, just saying, this is what I have read, so I just played it safe and went with the LS3 steel for its apparently higher durability factor.

I skate LS Edge/Fusion and I weigh more than you, and my skates are completely fine.