NHL.com today has a nice video of Edge runner being popped out by a shot

[Stewie 721]

mid game?

how often does that happen?

as often as these getting ejected from their holder I imagine.

way more often than that. there are a lot of times EQM's are scrambling to sharpen some skates during the course of a game, having runners to just pop in makes that a lot easier. if there wasn't a need, they probably wouldn't have developed the system. here is a blurb from a 2010 nhl.com article I found by an equipment manager

"Our guys are really good. I've had guys who wanted skates sharpened during the game and then put the right skate on first. So the player will give me his skates and I'm racing to get them done. So I happened to do the left skate first, not thinking. As soon as I get the first skate done I give it back to him so he can get ready. He says to me, 'What are you doing? I have to put the right skate on first?' So I finish the right one and give it to him and he's just sitting with his left skate off. Then you kick yourself because you're racing to get things done because you only have 15 minutes and if you end up doing two or three pair of skates between periods it gets a little tight. And it never fails that the coach will say, 'This guy's starting the period.'"

dude doesn't even need to take the skates off now. if he really wants, the EQM can pop in that right runner before the left.

[flip12 717]

Or if you nick an edge on a shift early in the period. I can't remember if it was the same shift, but I noticed Stamkos wipe out twice on turns in the same highlights video last week. If he gets back to the bench and they find he's lost an edge, he doesn't have to miss a shift to get back on good steel. Imagine the importance of that in a game 7 on an MVP. Sure, the blade could pop out on the same player's skate in this hypothetical game 7, but that's just the nature of the calculated risk, cost/benefit analysis.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

way more often than that. there are a lot of times EQM's are scrambling to sharpen some skates during the course of a game, having runners to just pop in makes that a lot easier. if there wasn't a need, they probably wouldn't have developed the system. here is a blurb from a 2010 nhl.com article I found by an equipment manager

"Our guys are really good. I've had guys who wanted skates sharpened during the game and then put the right skate on first. So the player will give me his skates and I'm racing to get them done. So I happened to do the left skate first, not thinking. As soon as I get the first skate done I give it back to him so he can get ready. He says to me, 'What are you doing? I have to put the right skate on first?' So I finish the right one and give it to him and he's just sitting with his left skate off. Then you kick yourself because you're racing to get things done because you only have 15 minutes and if you end up doing two or three pair of skates between periods it gets a little tight. And it never fails that the coach will say, 'This guy's starting the period.'"

dude doesn't even need to take the skates off now. if he really wants, the EQM can pop in that right runner before the left.

Yup it sure works well for that no doubt about it. BUT as an equipment manager myself without the CSW blade holder I was never getting the edges as good with the blade alone. That skate weight makes a difference. So I only use that now when doing a Trigger blade. We only have 1 set on our JR team all the rest are in Step the Midget team has a mix and the other team I do only has 2 with the trigger. The rest are actually mostly not Bauer. Graf and CCM mainly. And all 3 teams are in playoffs with a shot at winning it all in all 3 leagues so must be doing something right?

[Stewie 721]

Yup it sure works well for that no doubt about it. BUT as an equipment manager myself without the CSW blade holder I was never getting the edges as good with the blade alone. That skate weight makes a difference. So I only use that now when doing a Trigger blade. We only have 1 set on our JR team all the rest are in Step the Midget team has a mix and the other team I do only has 2 with the trigger. The rest are actually mostly not Bauer. Graf and CCM mainly. And all 3 teams are in playoffs with a shot at winning it all in all 3 leagues so must be doing something right?

seems like the best way to do it to me, would to be sharpening each runner as a part of the skate and just switching out runners as you go on any one players skate. that way you can kind of examine the boot in between as well, but I am just a mere peon. I was mostly just trying to point out the inaccuracies in saying that swapping out runners happens less often, or as often as runners flying from the holder as someone had claimed. I don't really know how much the system saves in effect of actual time, it just seems to me that its much more efficient then having to take boots off guys feet in between/in the middle of periods.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

seems like the best way to do it to me, would to be sharpening each runner as a part of the skate and just switching out runners as you go on any one players skate. that way you can kind of examine the boot in between as well, but I am just a mere peon. I was mostly just trying to point out the inaccuracies in saying that swapping out runners happens less often, or as often as runners flying from the holder as someone had claimed. I don't really know how much the system saves in effect of actual time, it just seems to me that its much more efficient then having to take boots off guys feet in between/in the middle of periods.

Well It was me that said they are coming off more than any other blade. That is just a fact. The amount it happens in every one else's opinion the frequency is fine. I personally would like to see a small change similar to the system used on the http://proskatebalance.com/news.htmlsystem. I think that is a better holder catching system. However I have seen this one in a pro room were the heel buckled from a shot.

[Stewie 721]

Well It was me that said they are coming off more than any other blade. That is just a fact. The amount it happens in every one else's opinion the frequency is fine. I personally would like to see a small change similar to the system used on the http://proskatebalance.com/news.htmlsystem. I think that is a better holder catching system. However I have seen this one in a pro room were the heel buckled from a shot.

well I would imagine the goal of any system would be to continuously improve over time. there are definitely people out there that think the benefits outweigh, and of course everyone on this and the 10 other threads its mentioned on can go around and around about it. I personally have no experience with it, but even for me as a beer leaguer, the ability to pop out blades would be very nice. one rink in particular that I skate at is notorious for exposed metals that can dull my blades, would be nice to just be able to swap out on the bench.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

well I would imagine the goal of any system would be to continuously improve over time. there are definitely people out there that think the benefits outweigh, and of course everyone on this and the 10 other threads its mentioned on can go around and around about it. I personally have no experience with it, but even for me as a beer leaguer, the ability to pop out blades would be very nice. one rink in particular that I skate at is notorious for exposed metals that can dull my blades, would be nice to just be able to swap out on the bench.

Exactly what I have been trying to say all along. Thank you!

[hb4167 6]

I actually would love for you to find broken blade videos from a 2 bolt system. In my research I found none.

It seems to me some are taking it personally as I am attacking Bauer and or Graf. I said in the beginning I had issues. It turns out from another thread I was right and bauer made a small running change.

Wally has his own blade and there are a lot of refs using that similar trigger system and the larger hook used I have yet to see one of those blades come out? And Refs get hit all the time on dump ins and clearings.

ALL I am saying is I personally feel I think it needs some more fine tuning!

http://bloguin.com/puckdrunklove/the-locker/gif-slap-shot-breaks-derek-dorsetts-skate-blade.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/25069018/watch-senators-curtis-lazar-loses-skate-blade-hops-to-bench

So with the above 2 and the other one originally posted thats 3 in a month!

I broke a teammates custom plus steel at 14 years old playing JV spring hockey with a slapshot. I remember it to this day because when I see the kid at our alumni skate every year, him and his dad always have a laugh with me about it. Much like equipment evolving, the attention to the equipment was less of a focus back then. People weren't as active in online communities on which pro was using what steel/holder. There is going to be little to no evidence, and the fact of the matter is, THINGS BREAK.

Frankly, I feel like you have made this personal many times over.

The only reason I remember who you are is because when this tech first came out, you were everywhere belittling the edge holder and pre-judging it before anyone had really gotten their hands on it. Yet now, you've regressed to this passive "I just want to see things get better" stance, because you are finally realizing that the majority believe in the Edge holder. I'm glad your junior teams are in the playoffs. Congratulations! But I'll trust the NHL equipment managers and players using Edge on a daily basis without fail, over your obviously biased opinion.

We get one video from the NHL of Edge steel popping out, and here you are lobbying against it. Again. Albeit, in a more passive manner this time.

I for one am so sick of hearing things the likes of:

"Edge holder/steel is unreliable compared to 'X' "

"The Tacks 1052 are the greatest skate"

"Wood sticks vs Composite"

"Back in my day a Hersheys bar cost a nickel"

When will people move past the archaic ways and start to appreciate the future, as opposed to critiquing it and reveling in the past all the time.

Asking for something to improve and get better with time is fair. But we don't need to lobby for it constantly. These companies are constantly trying to improve and advance their tech. IT IS HAPPENING WITH YOUR STATEMENTS OR WITHOUT THEM. But this circle jerk debate of old vs new, when does it end? I for one would be miserable if whatever was the most favored or popular equipment from the 80s or 90s was still the primary equipment made today.

TLDR; Steel popped out of holder. Happened to be Edge. Everything breaks. Please stop the old vs new debate. Edge is as proven as any other holder and Bauer is more than likely keeping an eye on it for advancement.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Its funny. I just had a long talk with another on the phone about this very thing.

It is pretty obvious you don't know me or my stance on new things. I am always up for new things. I always have the newest stuff either in my shop or when working at other places asked to get it in. Were some things flop's o yes they were. Some took off like crazy.

The only reason I have taken this a little personal (Frankly, I feel like you have made this personal many times over.) is because others who used to back me from back in the day even before this board started did not A. Back Me or B. Ask for the proof

So it is a little disheartening.

Also: (you were everywhere belittling the edge holder and pre-judging it before anyone had really gotten their hands on it) I do have access via Pros and Teams I work with so I had plenty of time with it before the general public.

As for changing my tune. Well I was actually pretty quiet about it to be honest I had videos pictures and the lot but I decided to contact Bauer through my sources and show them myself. And as mentioned they looked at it and noticed some mods could be made in production and did so. So I really can;t gripe as my main issue was looked at. With the trigger it self I see some adjustments to be made.

So here is a hint if you think I am posting BS ....don't read what I write?

[DarkStar50 679]

I find it interesting that as this discussion over the Edge holder, the trigger, it's on ice performance record and it's pros, cons and video evidence of failures continue, the Edge holder is held to this standard as being routinely unreliable game in and game out. Yet when compared with another product that has been in the NHL and retail marketplace for over 15 years with a failure rate in game situations that is quite simply a million times worse than the Edge holder, this other item's failure rate is deemed acceptable by everyone in the NHL and at the local level as acceptable. The item with the higher rate of failure: the OPS!!!! They break from slashes, they break in critical shots from the point, they break on possible game winning one timers from the slot, they break on deflections in front of the net!! They break all over the frkn rink!! But somehow we have come to accept it as part of the game. As part of the evolution of the equipment. As part of the acceptable norm of how we play the game today and going forward. Maybe, maybe just maybe, the Edge holder and whatever else is just around the corner in equipment could be given the latitude that the OPS has among us all. It's hockey, not rocket appliances.

[flip12 717]

I find it interesting that as this discussion over the Edge holder, the trigger, it's on ice performance record and it's pros, cons and video evidence of failures continue, the Edge holder is held to this standard as being routinely unreliable game in and game out. Yet when compared with another product that has been in the NHL and retail marketplace for over 15 years with a failure rate in game situations that is quite simply a million times worse than the Edge holder, this other item's failure rate is deemed acceptable by everyone in the NHL and at the local level as acceptable. The item with the higher rate of failure: the OPS!!!! They break from slashes, they break in critical shots from the point, they break on possible game winning one timers from the slot, they break on deflections in front of the net!! They break all over the frkn rink!! But somehow we have come to accept it as part of the game. As part of the evolution of the equipment. As part of the acceptable norm of how we play the game today and going forward. Maybe, maybe just maybe, the Edge holder and whatever else is just around the corner in equipment could be given the latitude that the OPS has among us all. It's hockey, not rocket appliances.

You said all over the rink, but you forgot, OPS break on passes. That's the best. When an isolated defenseman tries to make a pass from his blueline to someone to break into the other team's zone and then his stick breaks on a normal pass and the passive forechecker for the other team is suddenly handed either a breakaway or at least powerplay if the defenseman can manage to tackle him. I've seen that so many times. It's absurdly funny.

[DarkStar50 679]

^^^^ I'm a winger, I don't have a problem with that.

What goes around is all around, in the mid 70s when TUUK 2000 polycarbonate holders were first introduced, they also had a failure rate that was ridiculous. We repaired them daily in our shop and had to send back all the broken holders to Crow Smith in Massena, NY for credit. Rather than give up on the product and say that tubular steel Pro-Lite carbon blades were the best and could never be replaced by another product, the people at TUUK worked on their product with a few more failures(clear TUUKS) but eventually they got it right. I'd love to see all the skate weight whores of today try and skate in old CCM SuperTacks with tubular steel Pro-Lite carbon runners(that also didn't hold an edge very long). Sometimes you have to work with what you have, not with what you had.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

^^^^ I'm a winger, I don't have a problem with that.

What goes around is all around, in the mid 70s when TUUK 2000 polycarbonate holders were first introduced, they also had a failure rate that was ridiculous. We repaired them daily in our shop and had to send back all the broken holders to Crow Smith in Massena, NY for credit. Rather than give up on the product and say that tubular steel Pro-Lite carbon blades were the best and could never be replaced by another product, the people at TUUK worked on their product with a few more failures(clear TUUKS) but eventually they got it right. I'd love to see all the skate weight whores of today try and skate in old CCM SuperTacks with tubular steel Pro-Lite carbon runners(that also didn't hold an edge very long). Sometimes you have to work with what you have, not with what you had.

Well there was the CCM Pro-Lite older that broke on the daily? I think 92 was the worst year when they had a bad batch of plastic and we did one guy 3 times in 2 weeks!!! Then ended up sending all of them back in stock because of the issue.

And speaking of the tube skates they had the issue as well! When the white plastic piece came out you had to leave the ice because the refs were afraid of someone getting stabbed if you skated backwards into them. I remember clearly getting sent off in a game in my Sears Super Tacks because mine broke after a crashed the net and the heel hit the post. I was devastated....then again I think I was 8? LOL awww thanks for the memories DarkStar50

[Souldriver 64]

A lot of people speak about how its fast and easy to switch out the steel and not take the skate off. What makes it so much faster and secure than say two bolts/screws going through? Either way if you need a change you have to get off the ice, most likely need someone else if you dont want to take the skate off, and need tools. Unless you are a pro player or keep extra steel on the bench you also need to go get the extra steel in the lockeroom too.

I think what im getting at is that in the end it really is taking the same rough time. I think it improves on needing to get to a bolt inside the boot but compared to everything else its just a different way to achieve the same thing but is being boasted as a big new thing.

[Tyler Roy 86]

mid game?

how often does that happen?

as often as these getting ejected from their holder I imagine.

Was told Ovi has his blades changed 8 times during the course of a game...

A lot of people speak about how its fast and easy to switch out the steel and not take the skate off. What makes it so much faster and secure than say two bolts/screws going through? Either way if you need a change you have to get off the ice, most likely need someone else if you dont want to take the skate off, and need tools. Unless you are a pro player or keep extra steel on the bench you also need to go get the extra steel in the lockeroom too.

I think what im getting at is that in the end it really is taking the same rough time. I think it improves on needing to get to a bolt inside the boot but compared to everything else its just a different way to achieve the same thing but is being boasted as a big new thing.

What makes it more faster? Not having to take your skate off and get a tool(that not many players carry) into a wet boot to remove the steel and repeat the process then put the skates back on and get back out there. If we were in the same situation where we broke steel and had to change. I have the Edge holder and you have a LS2. I would get back on the rink before you had the chance to get the footbeds out of your skates.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Was told Ovi has his blades changed 8 times during the course of a game...

What makes it more faster? Not having to take your skate off and get a tool(that not many players carry) into a wet boot to remove the steel and repeat the process then put the skates back on and get back out there. If we were in the same situation where we broke steel and had to change. I have the Edge holder and you have a LS2. I would get back on the rink before you had the chance to get the footbeds out of your skates.

Tyler I think what is a more compelling argument on your part is that a player at a higher level would not have to untie a skate that feel comfortable at the time to change the blade.

That being said a good trainer would or could have a skate sharpened or blade replaced in less time than most think. Personally have done a set of blades and player missed one shift.

However the player still has to take the skates off and then due them up and some its a ritual they would rather not do during a game.

On a side note. In this thread and others I have taken a lot of heat for my stance on this product. I know others have similar stances on other products such as OPS and Helmets and so on. However if you feel I am wrong I am very open to discussing it one on one. Feel free to inbox me and I will discuss in a intelligent mature manor. What I find very disturbing is what is going on behind the keyboards here on this site and others, as I have found out today via FB. Being attacked online for your position on a product or a life style choice or what government you want to see in power is very immature and boarding on abuse. Now I have thicker skin than that but what was also was mentioned is I have a very poor reputation in the MSH Community and the hockey community in general. I find this very interesting. So please step forward and let me here it in a polite and mature manner. Thank you for your time.

[Souldriver 64]

Was told Ovi has his blades changed 8 times during the course of a game...

What makes it more faster? Not having to take your skate off and get a tool(that not many players carry) into a wet boot to remove the steel and repeat the process then put the skates back on and get back out there. If we were in the same situation where we broke steel and had to change. I have the Edge holder and you have a LS2. I would get back on the rink before you had the chance to get the footbeds out of your skates.

So it improves on the LS2, yes that is what i was saying. But there are other ways out there such as having the two bolts on the outside, like my easton skates where you didnt need to take off the skate to begin with. The only difference is a trigger vs turning two screws. What im saying is the edge trigger improves upon the ls2 but it is mearly catching up and slightly passing other holders, that is from an accesibilty and runner changing standpoint.

[chippa13 1844]

Sounds like OTG had a visit from an internet tough guy. Not sure why folks have to make things personal. It is just another discussion.

[Davetronz 109]

It is just another discussion.

This.

Its just a discussion (or should be). We're all passionate about hockey, these products, etc. Everyone has different viewpoints and perhaps different motivators.

I for one would like to think that our reviews, discussions, etc. make for a better product. As someone who uses the products, sells the products and has my elite players wearing them, I'm all for seeing problems out in the open, fixed and made better. That's what we're all here about.

It's not a personal attack by pointing out something is experiencing issues. Hell, if I was the manufacturer, I'd love to hear this so I could support my customers better. When I do my LTRs or product reviews, I'm honest about them and the problems I see. This honest feedback is what makes better products. Is it hard to dish out sometimes to a major manufacturer, yes, but I'd rather be known as someone who is truthful in their reviews, rather than reserved or afraid to say it how it is.

As someone in the industry, I love seeing and hearing all the different viewpoints to know that I'm not seeing isolated cases in my shop. I participate in this forum for the like-minded individuals who share a passion and in many cases, an industry. Keep the discussions civil, respectful and on point - we owe that to each other. There's such a wealth of information on this site, it would be a shame to have people leave because of a difference in opinion or a strong brand loyalty that fogs clear pros and cons...

[mnpucker 33]

So I have personally witnessed the steel falling out of the Edge runner after being hit by a puck. I coach Bantam Aged kids in MN (14-15 yrs old). 2 times this season I had players get hit on the foot by a shot on Edge Runners and the steel fell out. The contact came to the broadside of the steel on the instep. Additionally, I watched an opposing player lose his steel from the Edge holder from a similar shot. Then yesterday, watching the Univ of MN play Ohio State a player on the Buckeyes was hit on the blade while blocking a shot. The steel also fell out.

I assure you I have no vested interest in the business aspect of this product, these are just my first hand experiences.

As a side note, somewhere in this thread someone made mention to the fact we have more tolerance to breaking OPS' than the Edge holder. I think the difference is, when a stick breaks you can still participate in the play from a positional standpoint. Obviously without steel you are rendered into a floundering fish on ice. Specifically in the Defensive zone this becomes a very big problem.

So not having steel can be a bit more impactful than breaking a stick.

I have coached this age for 5 years, in previous years I have seen one blade/steel break from a shot one other time, I am really not sure how this product make sense in the youth hockey world. I am not aware of any kid that carries an extra set of steel. I can see how it makes sense at higher levels of play, High level High school, Junior, NCAA, Pro.

[DarkStar50 679]

FWIW, in my shop we have sold a lot of second sets of runners to AAA Peewees and up through our AAA18s. Word of mouth among the dads has driven a lot of sales of the second pair of runners. As compared to Minnesota, here in North Jersey and the Atlantic District, AAA players travel as far south on weekends as Washington, DC. Having the second set of runners when you are at an out-of-town rink that you may or may not trust the sharpener or if there is a long backup in skates sharpened while you wait(we have 4 rinks here and weekend sharpening wait can easily get to one hour), can be a game saver and lower the stress levels for travel players. Having the second set is also a bonus at week-end tournaments where multiple games are jammed into a 3 day event. Is Edge perfect? Not even close. Does it serve a viable purpose? Yes.

[chippa13 1844]

Well, I can say I've seen it now watching the Blues-Red Wings game.

[HDHockey 19]

Well, I can say I've seen it now watching the Blues-Red Wings game.

OT Goal also has a little bit of the questionable broken OPS part of this thread!

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

FWIW, in my shop we have sold a lot of second sets of runners to AAA Peewees and up through our AAA18s. Word of mouth among the dads has driven a lot of sales of the second pair of runners. As compared to Minnesota, here in North Jersey and the Atlantic District, AAA players travel as far south on weekends as Washington, DC. Having the second set of runners when you are at an out-of-town rink that you may or may not trust the sharpener or if there is a long backup in skates sharpened while you wait(we have 4 rinks here and weekend sharpening wait can easily get to one hour), can be a game saver and lower the stress levels for travel players. Having the second set is also a bonus at week-end tournaments where multiple games are jammed into a 3 day event. Is Edge perfect? Not even close. Does it serve a viable purpose? Yes.

Regardless of style I would agree sell lots of extra sets.

[ktang 34]

FWIW, in my shop we have sold a lot of second sets of runners to AAA Peewees and up through our AAA18s. Word of mouth among the dads has driven a lot of sales of the second pair of runners. As compared to Minnesota, here in North Jersey and the Atlantic District, AAA players travel as far south on weekends as Washington, DC. Having the second set of runners when you are at an out-of-town rink that you may or may not trust the sharpener or if there is a long backup in skates sharpened while you wait(we have 4 rinks here and weekend sharpening wait can easily get to one hour), can be a game saver and lower the stress levels for travel players. Having the second set is also a bonus at week-end tournaments where multiple games are jammed into a 3 day event. Is Edge perfect? Not even close. Does it serve a viable purpose? Yes.

Regardless of style I would agree sell lots of extra sets.

But, for not trusting out-of-town sharpening or for lineups, lightspeed would work just as well with 2 sets of steel and an 8mm socket.

Newer tech just needs to have the bleeding edge gremlins ironed out. I'm still interested to see if the Edge steel wobbliness is due to variance in the steel or the holder.