Pitch or just me? APX/MX3

[Zorlac 22]

Total NOOB when it comes to profiling, which I THINK is the issue of the topic...

Skated in APX 1s for over 2 years, and got very used to the explosiveness and aggressive feel of being in them. Although they were too shallow, and began to "break down" earlier than expected, I loved the way I skated in them.

Now... Got some new MX3's that are a better fit for my wide forefoot, and rather thick ankles. They, however, make me feel like I'm "on my heels" and aren't as aggressive feeling as my APXs are. I kinda feel flat footed, and slower in them.

There is a pretty good pro shop in the TAMPA area that I'm considering taking the supremes to, and explaining this dilemma.

Can they change the pitch of the blades? Maybe shave some steel off them, so less blade touches the ice? OR... is it just me, and I need to adjust my skating style?

I'm lost as to how to explain it to an expert. any advice would be helpful. I've had 5 games in them now, still too early for an adjustment?

TY..

[Chadd 916]

Yes, they can put you more on your toes with the MX3. You don't want less steel on the ice, you just want more forward pitch. Go in and tell them exactly what your problems are and they should be able to help you.

There are two options, heel lifts or profiling the steel. Most shops prefer to do one over the other.

[z1ggy 81]

If they are a good shop, like Chadd says, you walk in and tell them your problem and they should give you what you need to help. I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out for yourself what type of pitch "angle" or radius, etc, unless you are experienced in it.

When I was younger and got my first profiling, I just walked into the pro shop, told the guy my height and weight and that I wanted to be on my toes a bit more. I'm not really sure what he did, but it worked.

[Zorlac 22]

excellent! sounds easy enough.. I have NO experience in this at all, as a matter of fact "radius" made me go look it up...

curious as to whether or not the Supreme line has caused this to others coming from the VAPOR line...

THX fellas..

[JSK81 400]

I had 3mm heel lifts installed on my APX2s after wearing Makos, that way I don't have to worry about the runner profile changing due to sharpenings. Can't skate on stock Supremes at all anymore, feels very awkward.

[stick9 896]

Tougher to experiment with shims though, but seems to be the preferred path by many. If you have the Edge holders you could get some extra steel and try a few different profiles to find what suits you the best.

[Zorlac 22]

Heel lifts? So that would mean that the BOOT itself has LESS of a forward aggressive stance than APX? I just looked up MX3 stock radius and it's 9', APX is ALSO 9'... This means that it's the BOOT correct?

To sum it up, BOTH the MX3 and APX are the exact same size, with the exact same steel and radius, yet I feel flat footed in supremes. It almost feels like they are too big. I can HEAR the toe of my blades grabbing the ice when I take off.. WEIRD!

[JSK81 400]

Yeah, Supreme boot feels like it has less forward lean than Vapor.

[Zorlac 22]

It sure does... Makes for one weird transition going from VAPOR to SUPREME line. On the bright side, I can finally lace up the skate all the way, although I barley tighten it.

One major difference I've noticed that doesn't seem to be discussed is that the APK 1 skate has 9 eyelets, while the new MX3 injected lace holes features 10. It gives more of a custom tightening option having more lace holes

and the addition of the T-shaped locking feature.

[ChitownPuck91 0]

Heel lifts? So that would mean that the BOOT itself has LESS of a forward aggressive stance than APX? I just looked up MX3 stock radius and it's 9', APX is ALSO 9'... This means that it's the BOOT correct?

To sum it up, BOTH the MX3 and APX are the exact same size, with the exact same steel and radius, yet I feel flat footed in supremes. It almost feels like they are too big. I can HEAR the toe of my blades grabbing the ice when I take off.. WEIRD!

Theres a few things that you need to know here. 1) Yes, The pitch is different between the Vapor and Supreme line. 2) The pitch on the Supremes (MX3) can be elevated using shims (pieces of thin plastic) inserted between the holder and the boot once the rivets are removed. This will place you more on your toes like the APX skates you love. 3) The radius on the steel that comes from the factory is not always set to the skate size. Many times I have had skates that are size 9, but come with a 13' radius. This can also be adjusted, but should not be changed until the issue with the pitch is fixed.

[jimmy 194]

I had 3mm heel lifts installed on my APX2s after wearing Makos, that way I don't have to worry about the runner profile changing due to sharpenings. Can't skate on stock Supremes at all anymore, feels very awkward.

What do you mean profile not changing due to sharpenings? One bad sharpening could offset the forward effect of the lifts.

[chippa13 1844]

Heel lifts? So that would mean that the BOOT itself has LESS of a forward aggressive stance than APX? I just looked up MX3 stock radius and it's 9', APX is ALSO 9'... This means that it's the BOOT correct?

To sum it up, BOTH the MX3 and APX are the exact same size, with the exact same steel and radius, yet I feel flat footed in supremes. It almost feels like they are too big. I can HEAR the toe of my blades grabbing the ice when I take off.. WEIRD!

Just because the steel is "supposed" to be identical does not mean that it will be. I always have a radius put on new steel. It guarantees that left and right match and that I will be on the same radius as what I was riding on my old steel.

[Zorlac 22]

WOW, good info here... So just because Bauer syas my steel is 9', does NOT guarantee that it is? And even so, I can get the blades radius changed?

[ChitownPuck91 0]

WOW, good info here... So just because Bauer syas my steel is 9', does NOT guarantee that it is? And even so, I can get the blades radius changed?

Absolutely.

[psulion22 402]

I noticed this exact thing on the MX3's when I tried them for the first time at the Bauer Expo. Even coming from NXG's, I felt like I was back on my heels. One of my other coaches said the same.

My new steel always goes directly to Jimmy when it comes in, before I even skate on it. This way I know that the steel is profiled correctly and the way I like, and both runners are the same. When the MX3's came in, I opened the box, baked the skates, then popped out the runners and they were in an envelope off to NH the next day. I usually get a minor forward pitch added when they do it. For the MX3's I got a medium forward pitch to compensate for the backward stock pitch.

[jimmy 194]

WOW, good info here... So just because Bauer syas my steel is 9', does NOT guarantee that it is? And even so, I can get the blades radius changed?

Very rarely do factory runners match exactly. Even if you don't change the specs from say a stock 9' radius, think of getting the radius as the same as getting a front wheel alignment on your car. Just ensures left and right are equal. Factory radius can vary from specs quite a bit. Imaging having a 8.5 radius on the left skate, and a 9.5 on the right. Pivot points, heights, toe and heel radius, all those can all be off too. I have 40+ pairs of stock replacement runners from one company where every single right runner is off from the left, by quite a bit. Must have made them in 2 different batches as lefts and rights. They are off so much that it takes me 1 hr of grinding to match them, and this is before I even radius them. Imagine those runners on your new skates without getting them balanced. This is why I prefer radiusing pitch in over lifts. If you're going to get a radius anyway, just get the pitch with it and that way you're sure you have pitch on the skate. If for some reason your stock steel is off balance way to the heel, getting lifts only would bring it to neutral for example.

[Zorlac 22]

Off to NH? Who is Jimmy? I'm interested in getting this done...

[Chadd 916]

Tougher to experiment with shims though, but seems to be the preferred path by many. If you have the Edge holders you could get some extra steel and try a few different profiles to find what suits you the best.

Personally, I prefer shims. It's easy to go back and forth and doesn't result in much steel lost. The change also carries over to new steel.

[ChitownPuck91 0]

Personally, I prefer shims. It's easy to go back and forth and doesn't result in much steel lost. The change also carries over to new steel.

I feel the same way. Shaving the steel down to alter the pitch seems like a waste of steel to me. Not to mention its not always done right on the first try, but to each his own.

[MThockeydad 469]

Off to NH? Who is Jimmy? I'm interested in getting this done...

http://www.noicingsports.com

No affiliation here, just a happy customer.

[boo10 323]

I'd really like to know if Bauer officially states that Vapor has a different pitch than Supreme. Since they have the same runner and holder, the only possible way to achieve a different pitch would be to give Vapors a thicker outsole under the heel, (effectively a built in shim).

If the only difference is the angle of the back of the boot and tendon guard, then that is not a different pitch, it just forces a deeper knee bend. A true pitch difference can only be achieved by altering something below the bottom of the foot.

[malcb33 99]

If the only difference is the angle of the back of the boot and tendon guard, then that is not a different pitch, it just forces a deeper knee bend.

In my experience (vapor to Supreme) the issue is the angle of the boot.

Exactly like you said it forces you to have a deeper knee bend, which puts your weight more over over your toes. No the pitch of the holder isn't any higher, but the boot angle does change things.

[skleiner 0]

A nice progressive profile will take care of this issue, depending on your skate size something like a 7-12 or 7-13

No steel, especially Bauer, are the same. Remember steel is massed produced over seas, not only are they almost all the time not even but most of the time pitched backwards. It is always recommend to get a profile to just level them out if anything, it's just good blade maintenence. It's a one time thing (depending on how often you get your skates done) and can only really be taken off if someone is going crazy on the cross grinder. If you're getting your skates sharpened it won't change the profile (or it shouldn't but all depends who's sharpening). Whoever is sharpening will just be following what you already have on there.

Edit: it's not the outsole that's changing your pitch but the boot :)

[boo10 323]

A nice progressive profile will take care of this issue, depending on your skate size something like a 7-12 or 7-13

Edit: it's not the outsole that's changing your pitch but the boot :)

With all due respect, it's comments like this that confuse people. Nothing about the boot that isn't below your foot can change "pitch". True pitch is the difference in height above the ice between your forefoot and heel. Boot cut can never create this difference in height, other than thickness of material below different sections of the foot.

I realize I may be nitpicking, but hey that's me.

[skleiner 0]

With all due respect, it's comments like this that confuse people. Nothing about the boot that isn't below your foot can change "pitch". True pitch is the difference in height above the ice between your forefoot and heel. Boot cut can never create this difference in height, other than thickness of material below different sections of the foot.

I realize I may be nitpicking, but hey that's me.

I think it's how you interpret it. The boot angle is what changes what you feel (he/she stated that they were feeling on their heels and wondered why). I was adding onto above saying they were correct with the knee bend. Sorry I didn't specify, I figure people would read above me and realize. I also do this for a living so might not have brought it down to someone who doesn't understand etc, totally get what you're saying.

Sorry!

Go with the progressive though.