Stiffness of skates

[Vet88 674]

1 hour ago, Sniper9 said:

I get the benefit of skating with no laces and I already feel the benefits of my edges from recently dropping my top eyelet, but the thing i would be concerned about is my skates falling off lol.

And I'm assuming this is more of a training technique? Couldn't imagine playing a game like that and not risking skates flying off the feet. 

Yes, it's a training technique, not a game situation. Putting aside the safety risk, IIHF rules state you must have laces but you can tie them in any manner you want (this includes how many eyelets you may want to lace up, I only do the bottom 4 now for games). When you first start you may feel like your skates are going to come off, especially when you try to accelerate (heel is lifting out of the pocket). However over time your body learns to readjust and stop doing "walking / running" motions with the feet and do ice skating specific motions. Your skating becomes much more smoother. I often train with skates 2 sizes too big for me (no heel lock, very sloppy fit) and no laces, specifically for proprioception training, it's all in the stride. 

[Vet88 674]

2 hours ago, caveman27 said:

Well, ice skating involves fundamentals like bending your knees and keeping your posture up. But I've never seen completely new skaters being told to keep their laces loose while learning to skate. My children go to Learn To Skate classes, which is a US Figure Skating Association program for children learning to skate and figure skate. In every case where a student is seen with loose skates, an instructor ties them to be tight.

 

And I had this discussion a while ago with other coaches at a seminar. It's not in US LTP programme, we have never heard about it, that's not what I was taught etc etc are the excuses. Me - Why are you telling the to tie their laces tight? Reply - Oh, because it makes them more stable. Me - Yes - but it doesn't fix the problem.....

Yet ask them about a skater who drops 1 eyelet. this is perfectly acceptable. What about a skater who drops 2? Or 3? Or 4? When does this become "I've never heard of that"? Tell that to the young elite NHL skaters coming thru atm and are dropping eyelets.

Bottom line is you either give it a go or not, I'm not trying to sell anyone snake oil here or ask you to sign up for a service or training programme or try to take your money. It's free advice based on hard experience and been involved in a (so far) 3 year long varsity research project looking into specifically this issue. And this is the consistent thing, the deniers are those who have NEVER tried it yet everyone who I have had try it (from beginner to experienced) has never said it didn't help..The degrees of improvement are based on your bio mechanics..

[Sniper9 530]

58 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Yes, it's a training technique, not a game situation. Putting aside the safety risk, IIHF rules state you must have laces but you can tie them in any manner you want (this includes how many eyelets you may want to lace up, I only do the bottom 4 now for games). When you first start you may feel like your skates are going to come off, especially when you try to accelerate (heel is lifting out of the pocket). However over time your body learns to readjust and stop doing "walking / running" motions with the feet and do ice skating specific motions. Your skating becomes much more smoother. I often train with skates 2 sizes too big for me (no heel lock, very sloppy fit) and no laces, specifically for proprioception training, it's all in the stride. 

Because you're so used to it and trained so much this way is heel lock even an issue or something you even think about during games with only four eyelets done? For the avg person I'm guessing there's no way it would provide any kind of heel lock, but for you, because of your technique, is it even apparent?

[Leif 161]

8 hours ago, stick9 said:

Look, biomechanics, off ice training, no laces...all that stuff is great. It's definitely something I would steer my young son or daughter to. However, those learning the game at an older age don't have time for that. Frankly, it's all a bit extreme for an older player who just want to lace em up and go for a rip.

For a player in the OP's position, a proper fitting skate that won't hinder his stride should be priority #1.

And while I don't wish to go into here. To say that skate fit and all that is irrelevant is pretty short sighted. Correct your form on crap skates is like racing slicks on a Pirus...

I’m an older player, 56, and I skate roughly 7 hours a week, 3-4 hours of hockey scrimmage/training. Are you saying I don’t have time for skating without laces? IMO someone will learn quicker with lessons, most of us learn and then reinforce bad habits through practice. 

[Leif 161]

Vet88: How long per session do you skate without laces, and how many sessions before you get benefit? I can imagine my skates wobbling about, I can’t see how you place the foot down on an edge when the skate is wobbly. Is this useful for all skaters? 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Leif

[Vet88 674]

13 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

Because you're so used to it and trained so much this way is heel lock even an issue or something you even think about during games with only four eyelets done? For the avg person I'm guessing there's no way it would provide any kind of heel lock, but for you, because of your technique, is it even apparent?

When I started I was slow as hell, any attempt to stride out caused my heel to lift. I used to lace all the way up for games. Over time the way my feet worked in the boot changed and my push became much smoother, harder and flatter and my heel stopped lifting. I now prefer to skate laces untied over laced up, as others have commented it becomes about as natural as walking. Performance wise it's been bloody hard, pushing hard and feeling your ankles collapse under you is really really frustrating but over time my ankle has got stronger and my control of the blade has improved to the point I can now go flat out with no laces and no thoughts about heel lock etc The 4 eyelets lock my forefoot into place, provides a little more stability and is game compliant (once I managed to get the national head ref controller to approve it). But I do wear skate fenders, the space where the tongue lifts out of the boot and leaves the foot exposed is not something I will risk in a game..

[Vet88 674]

1 minute ago, Leif said:

Vet88: How long per session do you skate without laces, and how many sessions before you get benefit? I can imagine my skates wobbling about, I can’t see how you place the foot down on an edge when the skate is wobbly. Is this useful for all skaters? 

Try this - lace up and go for a skate and concentrate on what your feet are telling you. My bet is it is bugger all, you aren't getting any feedback from the blade and the way it is working under your foot. Now go for a skate with your laces undone, every little twist, edge, catch in the ice is felt. We are genetically designed to do anything as energy efficient as we possibly can BUT... the brain has to know what is going on so it can work out how to be energy efficient. Laced up and you are still skating so the brain thinks this is ok, the only thing it's got to compare with is how you walk and run, it knows no different. Unlaced and now your muscles are having to work to not only control your balance over the blade but also how you put power INTO the blade - this part is really important. Maximum transfer of energy without the crutch of the boot. Your foot can't fold, you will feel it immediately. Your alignment straightens up, it has to as your brain demands it because it now knows what it is costing you to skate unbalanced over the blade.

I skate every day, 1 - 2 hours a day (and always with no laces) so it's hard for me to give a figure for someone who skates once or twice a week. But skaters I have coached show literally immediate results during a single lesson. Yes, you are skating slow but the way you start balancing over the blade is immediately noticeable. That wobble is important, your brain is now working out how to use your muscles in the most efficient manner to control the edge. Every time you skate you are improving. Video yourself, especially from front or behind so you can see how your blade starts to straighten up under your foot. For those who are fortunate to have skating dna then this will be just a tune up but for the other 95% of the population out there (that is the number who pronate / supinate / have alignment issues) then this becomes a revelation. there is always something in the way you skate that needs improving and skating with laces undone brutally exposes it. For me one of the key things about this is it isn't dependent on the skate you are in, a coach who is training you or even how long you have skated. It's all about you, your body alignment and how well you can control the skate blade. Teach yourself with built in auto correction (your brain). 

[BenBreeg 493]

1 hour ago, Leif said:

Vet88: How long per session do you skate without laces, and how many sessions before you get benefit? I can imagine my skates wobbling about, I can’t see how you place the foot down on an edge when the skate is wobbly. Is this useful for all skaters? 

From my perspective from someone who does this periodically, you are going to learn something that first lap out.  You will get feedback on how you are placing you weight on each skate (good chance it isn’t perfectly equal).  You will start to understand better how the different muscles of the foot contribute to controlling the skate and applying pressure within.  If you have a specific issue, like turning one way or the other or a certain edge, it will make it worse but you will get magnified feedback on where things are going wrong.

[BenBreeg 493]

9 hours ago, stick9 said:

Look, biomechanics, off ice training, no laces...all that stuff is great. It's definitely something I would steer my young son or daughter to. However, those learning the game at an older age don't have time for that. Frankly, it's all a bit extreme for an older player who just want to lace em up and go for a rip.

For a player in the OP's position, a proper fitting skate that won't hinder his stride should be priority #1.

And while I don't wish to go into here. To say that skate fit and all that is irrelevant is pretty short sighted. Correct your form on crap skates is like racing slicks on a Pirus...

I would say this about the analogy, nobody said crap skates, but the relative minutiae between one good enough pair of skates and another good enough pair of skates isn’t going to matter much to a beginner.

i think the better analogy may be, given a basic vehicle that is good enough, the better driver is going to win the race.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

On 9/21/2019 at 11:27 PM, caveman27 said:

I'd have to disagree with this thought. No one who is learning to skate does so with the laces undone. That makes things worse. I've never heard of any ice skating teacher, hockey, figure skating or speed skating, telling all the students to undo their laces so as not to use it as a crutch.

You need to go to LA. Daryl Evan's I believe his name is skates with no laces at all.  Great teacher and awesome gentlemen.  I personally disagree but after talking for hours with him we came to a mutual understanding of the bio mechanics and his theory.  

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

5 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Try this - lace up and go for a skate and concentrate on what your feet are telling you. My bet is it is bugger all, you aren't getting any feedback from the blade and the way it is working under your foot. Now go for a skate with your laces undone, every little twist, edge, catch in the ice is felt. We are genetically designed to do anything as energy efficient as we possibly can BUT... the brain has to know what is going on so it can work out how to be energy efficient. Laced up and you are still skating so the brain thinks this is ok, the only thing it's got to compare with is how you walk and run, it knows no different. Unlaced and now your muscles are having to work to not only control your balance over the blade but also how you put power INTO the blade - this part is really important. Maximum transfer of energy without the crutch of the boot. Your foot can't fold, you will feel it immediately. Your alignment straightens up, it has to as your brain demands it because it now knows what it is costing you to skate unbalanced over the blade.

I skate every day, 1 - 2 hours a day (and always with no laces) so it's hard for me to give a figure for someone who skates once or twice a week. But skaters I have coached show literally immediate results during a single lesson. Yes, you are skating slow but the way you start balancing over the blade is immediately noticeable. That wobble is important, your brain is now working out how to use your muscles in the most efficient manner to control the edge. Every time you skate you are improving. Video yourself, especially from front or behind so you can see how your blade starts to straighten up under your foot. For those who are fortunate to have skating dna then this will be just a tune up but for the other 95% of the population out there (that is the number who pronate / supinate / have alignment issues) then this becomes a revelation. there is always something in the way you skate that needs improving and skating with laces undone brutally exposes it. For me one of the key things about this is it isn't dependent on the skate you are in, a coach who is training you or even how long you have skated. It's all about you, your body alignment and how well you can control the skate blade. Teach yourself with built in auto correction (your brain). 

But shouldn't the blades be realigned properly to do this? Doing this on skates with bad alignment makes zero sense? Aligned yes.... 

[stick9 891]

5 hours ago, Leif said:

I’m an older player, 56, and I skate roughly 7 hours a week, 3-4 hours of hockey scrimmage/training. Are you saying I don’t have time for skating without laces? IMO someone will learn quicker with lessons, most of us learn and then reinforce bad habits through practice. 

That's great, you'll have the best form in the senior home. 😉

Before barking at the OP about this that and the other, how about asking him what he's looking to get out of it. Not everyone is training to play the Soviets.

Again, it's the practicality of that route for a player his age. It's entirely possible to skip all that and just have fun. 

Great skater or not, we all end up in the same place, local beer leagues. Ask yourself, is all that really worth it.

Edited September 23, 2019 by stick9

[boo10 323]

Pretty interesting discussion.  When I was a teenager, I worked as an instructor at a hockey school run by a former NHL player.  The first thing he did when a new group of kids showed up was explain that they should not be tying their skates too tightly.  He then had the instructors unlace our skates and run through a couple of drills to demonstrate that the laces are really just there to keep your skates on.

The first time you do it is unnerving because you fear that you might break your ankle.  After a few minutes you relax and it gets easier.  I have no idea if there is any real benefit, but it does let me know if I'm not centred over the blade.

Edited September 23, 2019 by boo10

[BenBreeg 493]

55 minutes ago, stick9 said:

That's great, you'll have the best form in the senior home. 😉

Before barking at the OP about this that and the other, how about asking him what he's looking to get out of it. Not everyone is training to play the Soviets.

Again, it's the practicality of that route for a player his age. It's entirely possible to skip all that and just have fun. 

Great skater or not, we all end up in the same place, local beer leagues. Ask yourself, is all that really worth it.

Yeah, you are right, each has their own goals.  But the OP did inquire about the ideal stiffness of skates which I would assume implies that the ideal stiffness would lead to better skating.  So the response led to something along the lines of the dominant variable not being the skate but the path to quickest improvement would be concentrating on technique.

Like you said, to each his own.  I love breaking things down in anything I do and really getting into the details.  Others may not.

[flip12 715]

What I appreciate about this thread is its fundamental questioning of the current state of hockey skates. I’m in the camp with those that would say they’re overstructured. There’s a lot of nuance in all of the facets that go into skating so it’s a worthwhile discussion.

Regarding heel lock, I somewhat recall being taught at Laura Stamm Power Skating that you get more stride length if you get heel lift. That way you have even more toe flick. The instructors all skated 1-3 eyelets unlaced and this was back when O.G. Bauer Vapor 8s just came out.

[clarkiestooth 235]

19 minutes ago, flip12 said:

 

Regarding heel lock, I somewhat recall being taught at Laura Stamm Power Skating that you get more stride length if you get heel lift. That way you have even more toe flick. 

Heal lock helps with edge planting and edge feel. The flexible tendon guards on today's skates help do what you're talking about: allow easier full straightening of the pushing leg, thus facilitating the toe flick.

[caveman27 208]

10 hours ago, Vet88 said:

And I had this discussion a while ago with other coaches at a seminar. It's not in US LTP programme, we have never heard about it, that's not what I was taught etc etc are the excuses. Me - Why are you telling the to tie their laces tight? Reply - Oh, because it makes them more stable. Me - Yes - but it doesn't fix the problem.....

Yet ask them about a skater who drops 1 eyelet. this is perfectly acceptable. What about a skater who drops 2? Or 3? Or 4? When does this become "I've never heard of that"? Tell that to the young elite NHL skaters coming thru atm and are dropping eyelets.

Bottom line is you either give it a go or not, I'm not trying to sell anyone snake oil here or ask you to sign up for a service or training programme or try to take your money. It's free advice based on hard experience and been involved in a (so far) 3 year long varsity research project looking into specifically this issue. And this is the consistent thing, the deniers are those who have NEVER tried it yet everyone who I have had try it (from beginner to experienced) has never said it didn't help..The degrees of improvement are based on your bio mechanics..

Well, the concept of skating with laces undone to get a feel for the edges and developing better balance and having a stiff boot for game-time play seem to be two different things to me. You have a video of someone achieving better skating skills but running drills with laces tied loosely and he's not in a game. That seems okay as one is using more muscles to achieve balance to make up for less ankle support. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, would you or do you skate like that during a game. 

Dropping eyelets allows the ankle to flex forward, but that is different than going to a less stiffer boot where side-to-side flex is greater than a top-of-the-line skate. No young elite NHL skater is going from a Bauer 2S Pro to a S25.

I don't know of any NHL-level player who wears a skate with a less stiff boot than a pro-level boot, or an Olympic level figure skater who is wearing an intermediate or beginning level boot instead of an expert level boot. Are they all "crappy" skaters who are relying on stiff boots to adjust for poor fundamentals of ice skating? Actually, pro level skaters require stiffer boots, whether its ice hockey or figure skating, for the amount of stress they are putting on them. Intermediate level skates flex too much.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by caveman27

[VegasHockey 1280]

2 hours ago, boo10 said:

Pretty interesting discussion.  When I was a teenager, I worked as an instructor at a hockey school run by a former NHL player.  The first thing he did when a new group of kids showed up was explain that they should not be tying their skates too tightly.  He then had the instructors unlace our skates and run through a couple of drills to demonstrate that the laces are really just there to keep your skates on.

The first time you do it is unnerving because you fear that you might break your ankle.  After a few minutes you relax and it gets easier.  I have no idea if there is any real benefit, but it does let me know if I'm not centred over the blade.

Some players tend to rely on the stiffness of the skate boot to compensate for lack of skill or ankle strength. Too often I have parents wanting to buy their young kids top of the line youth/junior skates that are very stiff. I have to spend considerable time talking them out of spending money on something that may prevent their children from properly developing the correct muscles and edge control organically. In their mind, expensive means better and they want to get their kids the best tools available. Too foten I see them flexing the skate collar comparing a pair of AS1 vs a pair of Ribcor and they say the Ribcor is cheap without understanding specifically why the Ribcor is designed with flexibility. 

[flip12 715]

1 hour ago, caveman27 said:

Well, the concept of skating with laces undone to get a feel for the edges and developing better balance and having a stiff boot for game-time play seem to be two different things to me. You have a video of someone achieving better skating skills but running drills with laces tied loosely and he's not in a game. That seems okay as one is using more muscles to achieve balance to make up for less ankle support. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, would you or do you skate like that during a game. 

Dropping eyelets allows the ankle to flex forward, but that is different than going to a less stiffer boot where side-to-side flex is greater than a top-of-the-line skate. No young elite NHL skater is going from a Bauer 2S Pro to a S25.

I don't know of any NHL-level player who wears a skate with a less stiff boot than a pro-level boot, or an Olympic level figure skater who is wearing an intermediate or beginning level boot instead of an expert level boot. Are they all "crappy" skaters who are relying on stiff boots to adjust for poor fundamentals of ice skating? Actually, pro level skaters require stiffer boots, whether its ice hockey or figure skating, for the amount of stress they are putting on them. Intermediate level skates flex too much.

 

Both Marleau and McDavid compete on less stiff than current top-end stiffness.

Looking backwards in skate history there have always been skaters who exhibit remarkable speed and agility. Look at the dynamic skating of Valeri Kharlamov and it’s clear boots don’t have to be stiff for players to do what they need to do on the ice.

[flip12 715]

1 hour ago, clarkiestooth said:

Heal lock helps with edge planting and edge feel. The flexible tendon guards on today's skates help do what you're talking about: allow easier full straightening of the pushing leg, thus facilitating the toe flick.

Back then tendon guards started out stiff and broke in, allowing at least some of that toe flick, some brands more than others. My CCM 652 Pump Tacks felt pretty much the same in tendon guard ROM as my MLX do. Stamm’s instructor was out for maximum toe flick. With heel lock you can get some but with heel lift you can get even more.

Stamm’s teaching made a lot of sense for me getting a hockey boot to work more naturally before I made the jump to Graf. My 705s let me fly like I never knew I could. They had both heel lock and incredible range of motion.

[caveman27 208]

36 minutes ago, flip12 said:

Both Marleau and McDavid compete on less stiff than current top-end stiffness.

Looking backwards in skate history there have always been skaters who exhibit remarkable speed and agility. Look at the dynamic skating of Valeri Kharlamov and it’s clear boots don’t have to be stiff for players to do what they need to do on the ice.

You mean Connor McDavid? He's wears CCM JetSpeed. That's the top end, unless he's upgraded to FT2 or whatever it is now.

Marleau is in 9K. They are old. But when they were sold as new, the Reebok 9K was top-of-the-line. So, back in that time, late 2000s early 2010s, lower-end models were designed with a number lower than 9K.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by caveman27

[boo10 323]

7 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

You mean Connor McDavid? He's wears CCM JetSpeed. That's the top end, unless he's upgraded to FT2 or whatever it is now.

Unless he has changed this season, McDavid wears the OG Jetspeed which is not really very stiff.  He also skates with the top eyelet undone.

[caveman27 208]

2 minutes ago, boo10 said:

Unless he has changed this season, McDavid wears the OG Jetspeed which is not really very stiff.  He also skates with the top eyelet undone.

I wear the "OG" JetSpeed. I bought them on clearance after the FT1's had been introduced. It's their top-of-the-line, where CCM has intermediate and beginner versions of that skate. 

So, there's a difference between skating with all laces loose and not tying to the top eyelet. Not sure if you are equating that to be the same.

[boo10 323]

36 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

I wear the "OG" JetSpeed. I bought them on clearance after the FT1's had been introduced. It's their top-of-the-line, where CCM has intermediate and beginner versions of that skate. 

So, there's a difference between skating with all laces loose and not tying to the top eyelet. Not sure if you are equating that to be the same.

Not at all.  Just pointing out that "top of the line" is not synonymous with "super stiff".  In fact, the OG Jetspeed is probably closer in stiffness to the 3rd price point in the Bauer 1S and 1X lines.

[flip12 715]

46 minutes ago, caveman27 said:

You mean Connor McDavid? He's wears CCM JetSpeed. That's the top end, unless he's upgraded to FT2 or whatever it is now.

Marleau is in 9K. They are old. But when they were sold as new, the Reebok 9K was top-of-the-line. So, back in that time, late 2000s early 2010s, lower-end models were designed with a number lower than 9K.

 

Marleau’s 9K’s are still down-spec’d a bit from how a stock 9K was. He stuck with TPU outsoles like there were on his previous CCM skates. His eyelet pattern is also funky, omitting eyelets 2 and 4 from the top which also promotes forward flex. Fedorov and Bure also rocked TPU outsoled boots after composite was introduced: Bure on his early Vapor 8s and Fedorov on G3s. McDavid’s stiffness spec apparently matches the third tier offerring in the Tacks lineup: https://www.icewarehouse.com/CCM_Tacks_9080/descpage-CT8S.html

If he had wanted stiffer when JetSpeeds came out he almost certainly could have had that spec.