Ellipse Profiles – The next revolution in skate profiling?

[Ric_Flair 4]

4 hours ago, PBH said:

You want opinions based on what?

The Quad XS and 0.5 are both slightly similar, but the Ellipse XS is nothing like either of those.

Great. I’d like to know what each offers in terms of speed, acceleration, maneuverability etc. 
 

Slightly similar, does that mean more different then? 
and which of these do you prefer and why?

Thanks! I appreciate your insight 

[Ric_Flair 4]

@kkskate, @PBH, @mojo122

I've switched back n forth between 263 and 254 recently, tho only a few times yet. Hard to discern a big diff. I think the main thing I want to eliminate was the extra space in the toe box of my size 7 skates (now fit into 6s easily enough). I did that with some sponge foam, but still can feel the extra boot length.

I'll continue to experiment with both before I decide to put 263s on my size 6s or not. 

If I skate on an Ellipse 0 on the 263s (which is the recommended ellipse for the 263 size 7-8 skates) and really liked it, when dropping down a blade size to 254 would you recommend the Ellipse XS (recommended for the 254, sizes 5-6) or would I be better served going with the Ellipse 0 on them as well; anyone have experience with this? 

Thanks
 

[Ric_Flair 4]

On 3/11/2021 at 4:37 PM, kkskate said:

That's interesting and likely why people need to try things for themselves.  I've recently skated an all 3 (Quads, Ellipse, and Zuperior) and the found the Zuperior to be much different than the Quad and Ellipse. 

This I can agree with. Found Zup much diff, too far forward, less agility... much diff. 
Quad and Ellipse are quite similar IMHO. Can almost agree with how some people describe the "smooth, natural" feeling of the Ellipse. 

Now to figure out whether to use a Ellipse 0 or XS on my 254s. Have used the Ellipse 0 recently on a 263 and it felt great. What's yer thoughts there @kkskate?

[kkskate 12]

9 minutes ago, Ric_Flair said:

This I can agree with. Found Zup much diff, too far forward, less agility... much diff. 
Quad and Ellipse are quite similar IMHO. Can almost agree with how some people describe the "smooth, natural" feeling of the Ellipse. 

Now to figure out whether to use a Ellipse 0 or XS on my 254s. Have used the Ellipse 0 recently on a 263 and it felt great. What's yer thoughts there @kkskate?

I personally found the Ellipse XS to "short" for my taste on a 254 mm blade.  I felt like I gained a lot of quickness though lost some power and stability.  For me I'd likely go with the Ellipse Zero, the Quad Zero, or the Quad 1.  There is my preference not necessarily advice for others to follow.  I see skaters who like the Ellipse XS on longer blades.  The other thing to consider is when you drop to the XS you loose the senior pitch offset.  It goes from 20 mm to 17 mm.  Not a huge difference though just be aware.

[Ric_Flair 4]

37 minutes ago, kkskate said:

I personally found the Ellipse XS to "short" for my taste on a 254 mm blade.  I felt like I gained a lot of quickness though lost some power and stability.  For me I'd likely go with the Ellipse Zero, the Quad Zero, or the Quad 1.  There is my preference not necessarily advice for others to follow.  I see skaters who like the Ellipse XS on longer blades.  The other thing to consider is when you drop to the XS you loose the senior pitch offset.  It goes from 20 mm to 17 mm.  Not a huge difference though just be aware.

OK. I am playing in Sweden, bigger ice so like my straight-line speed; I'm good enough skater that I can negate the quickness differential (or, what do you mean when you say you gained a lot of quickness?).
Understand these are your preferences, but from following your threads and based on yer comments I think you're the closest to "my findings" thus far, so I'll use you're opinions/findings as my benchmark 😉

What do you mean about loosing the senior pitch offset? I don't like much being pitched forward... do you mean I'd be pitched further forward on the XS?

Many thanks in advance @kkskate

//BM 

[Ric_Flair 4]

1 minute ago, Ric_Flair said:

OK. I am playing in Sweden, bigger ice so like my straight-line speed; I'm good enough skater that I can negate the quickness differential (or, what do you mean when you say you gained a lot of quickness?).
Understand these are your preferences, but from following your threads and based on yer comments I think you're the closest to "my findings" thus far, so I'll use you're opinions/findings as my benchmark 😉

What do you mean about loosing the senior pitch offset? I don't like much being pitched forward... do you mean I'd be pitched further forward on the XS?

Many thanks in advance @kkskate

//BM 

I'll add, I was recently informed by the shop I borrowed the quads I was on (and also liked) is a Quad 2... 
I want to avoid the unstable feeling and not having a lot of blade down where I can pick up straight-line speed. 

TIA

[hockeydad3 51]

I´m fine-tuning my skate-setup by trying some profiles, cuts, lacing techniques and insoles with my TF7 254mm. I compared Stock profile (9/10') vs. ellipse zero, ellipse zero vs. ellipse xs, ellipse xs vs. quad zero with only 10mm pivot-shift, and my blades just arrived with a quad xs to compare with the quad zero. In my opinion it´s not easy to compare the profiles because I need several hours to get used to a new profile and take full advantage of it.

The ellipse xs has a e better agility, stability and speed compared to the quad zero with 10mm pivot shift, but skating is way easier for me with the quad. Other people have the opinion that the Quad zero has the same agility than the ellipse xs. What can you learn from this information? You have to try it yourself!

Two days ago, I was trying a thin and stiff orthopedic custom insole, which didn´t work in other skates, with my TF7. And wow, more agility, better edge control, better energy transfer, less comfort, but the quad profile feels completely different than with the more cushioned stock insole. Maybe the insole moved my balance point? And now? Stay with the custom insole and start a new profile comparison?

I don´t think that a 263mm runner makes a big difference compared to a 254mm runner as long as the holder is mounted on the same balance point and the pivot point of the profile is centered to the same point towards your balance point as with the 254mm runner. The 263mm runner is only 3,5% longer.

If you are switching from a perfect sized skate to a skate which is too long, you are changing the pivot point of the runner towards your toes, if your heel is locked in and the profile has a standard pivot point on the longer skate.

If you are putting a multi radius profile on a longer or shorter runner than it was designed for, it will change the proportions of the different radii and the pivot point. This means it is a different design than it was originally developped. Even so, of course, this can work for you.

Of course you can correct my theoretical considerations if they should be wrong.

[Ric_Flair 4]

A lot of what you wrote, I am doing/finding the same, tho I am less structured as I have access to only limited amount of profiles across the sizes with just about all the profiles I've tried thus far are on the 263. 

Without too much of your effort (as you've been pretty generous thus far to describe to me your experiments and findings), in your humble opinion, If I am wearing a size 7 (263) now, heel locked and have about 10-11 mm of "extra space" left in the toe cap (which is why I am moving to size 6 which gives me very snug fit), what ellipse would/should give me the same skating experience? Just off the ice now using 263s with an Ellipse 0... I love it.

And is it easier on the blades (re: which takes more steel away) to first try the 0 and if I don't like go to the advised XS, or the other way around; start with the XS and if I don't like go to 0? 

Many, many thanks @kkskate, come to one of these turbo-beer league tournaments in Europe one day and I'll owe you one! 
 

[hockeydad3 51]

I think it will be try and error. It could be that you have to experiment with your pivot point. But Its a complete different setup. A new, unused and shorter Skate itself makes a big difference. If I would be you I`d put on an Ellipse Zero and give the Skate 20h for breaking in. Than reevaluate. Going from Zero to XS should take away less steel. If your new Skates have the Bauer Power Profile, I just would use this Profile for breaking in.

[Ric_Flair 4]

3 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

I think it will be try and error. It could be that you have to experiment with your pivot point. But Its a complete different setup. A new, unused and shorter Skate itself makes a big difference. If I would be you I`d put on an Ellipse Zero and give the Skate 20h for breaking in. Than reevaluate. Going from Zero to XS should take away less steel. If your new Skates have the Bauer Power Profile, I just would use this Profile for breaking in.

Hi @hockeydad3, and thanks for weighing in. I have a few sets of blades, so yes I certainly will be leaving the "power profile" alone and trying it. It's the other sets that I am curious as to what to profile them at. But OK, I'll try the route as you mentioned, going from 0 to XS if need be.

And regarding the skates, well... they are both 'kinda' new to me. Just started playing again back in the spring and picked up a sparsely used pair of 2X Pros; now I'll have glove-like fitting True Customs (also not brand new, but formfit very well to my foot), and a brand new pair of Hyperlites which I plan to bake of course. Also plan to use Speed Plates 2.0 in both skates.
 

@kkskate, you mentioned above about using diff insoles. Have you tried the Speed Plates and if so do I need to order 1-size up. Have read several places that is the case. 

Thanks to all for your input.

[hockeydad3 51]

For the beginning I would concentrate on one skate and change the profile or the insole. And give the change at least five hours on the ice. Don´t change too many parameters at once. 😉

[Ric_Flair 4]

Thanks, will do. Tho I'm currently using Speed Plates, so I don't see that as a parameter change, so will be going ahead with that. 
Yer the best fellas.
 

[Larry54 243]

FWIW, I've tried Speedplates with my VH skates and the arch/instep really got in the way since the boot itself had enough arch/instep for my feet. I guess the Speedplates might be good if your feet have a higher arch/instep than what's built into the boot. But my reason for trying Speedplates was to get a bit of metatarsal arch support that Graf/SIDAS molded footbeds provided on my previous pairs of skates. I just ended up using Specialized Body Geometry cycling footbeds for their metatarsal button, and they come in 3 different instep heights of which I chose the lowest.

[Ric_Flair 4]

@PBH, @kkskate. Hey guys. I've noticed a pretty big difference in the "components" if-you-will, of the Hyperlites size 5.5 and size 6. It seems to be a border where Bauer uses bigger components (tendon guard and tongue very obvious, and overall boot size when you look at them). In addition, the inside/insole of the skate. If you take out the stock liners, or whatever we call them, and actually compare at the foot beds, the 5.5 has a white almost wooly-type appearance, while the 6 has a silver-colored 'graphite' look. Can't figure out how to post the pics here...

Either of you folks know what happens regarding the construction and hence the differences of these two half-size-differentiated skates? I'm asking because I am caught in between buying size 6 fit 2, or size 5.5 fit 3 (both have 254mm runners which I want to stay at)? I'm about 5'9", 175-180 and would consider myself an advanced skater; would one hold up better that the other, one softer than the other, etc.?

Again, many thanks in advance folks.
 

[hockeydad3 51]

Both boots have the same length, 25,1 cm. If Fit 2 fits you best, you should tkake Fit 2, and vice versa. 

[Ric_Flair 4]

11 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Both boots have the same length, 25,1 cm. If Fit 2 fits you best, you should tkake Fit 2, and vice versa. 

Hi @hockeydad3. You think both size 5.5, fit 3, and size 6, fit 2 have the same length boot? I've been measuring them several times and they are very close, perhaps millimeters in diff, but have noticed some diff. nonetheless. And of course can feel slight differences. 
When I look at the outsole as well, there is an evident difference in length there as can been seen by where the blade holder sits in relevance to the lip at the front and back; again millimeters. Do you know if there is a diff in flex of the boot, materials or overall construction as mentioned in my previous post?

Thanks.

[Ric_Flair 4]

.1

Edited October 23, 2021 by Ric_Flair

[hockeydad3 51]

I don't know about the other differences. But Bauer EE  and Fit 3 size skate boots are a half size longer than D or Fit 1+2. You can see this in the sizing charts for the runners and for the Bauer speedplate insoles. 

[HockeyTactics 0]

Hi guys,

I am looking for a profile recommendation.

Backstory: I recently upgraded from a x800 vapor to a 3x pro vapor (size 9.5).
Straight line speed feels good but having trouble with smooth turns and especially braking (really having trouble with my left foot). I found out that i went from a 9ft single radius profile to a 10ft radius, judging by Bauers description.
Another thought is that my old Blade is max 2/3 of the heigth of the new one, so i am bit afraid that the different sharpeners grinded a bit of a custom profile into the steel. I really liked something around 1/2 inch RoH for an strong grip for tight turns and general agility.

Any recommendations (looking at quad or ellipse profiles)?

Thanks in advance!

[Ric_Flair 4]

1 hour ago, HockeyTactics said:

Hi guys,

I am looking for a profile recommendation.

Backstory: I recently upgraded from a x800 vapor to a 3x pro vapor (size 9.5).
Straight line speed feels good but having trouble with smooth turns and especially braking (really having trouble with my left foot). I found out that i went from a 9ft single radius profile to a 10ft radius, judging by Bauers description.
Another thought is that my old Blade is max 2/3 of the heigth of the new one, so i am bit afraid that the different sharpeners grinded a bit of a custom profile into the steel. I really liked something around 1/2 inch RoH for an strong grip for tight turns and general agility.

Any recommendations (looking at quad or ellipse profiles)?

Thanks in advance!

Hi @HockeyTactics, I’ve been asking a lot of questions here also. I like both the profiles you’ve mentioned; starting to sway towards the ellipse now, just feels really good for me in all scenarios. I’m on a 263 runner at the moment and I THINK it’s an ellipse 0 (the guy I borrowed from doesn’t know, just had his equipment guy do it), I also don’t know if there is any pitch added to it (standard prosharp ellipse 0 would have 20mm forward pitch). This is what I’m in the process of finding out now. 
 

in all, I like both, but prefer the ellipse. 

[hockeydad3 51]

1 hour ago, HockeyTactics said:

Hi guys,

I am looking for a profile recommendation.

Backstory: I recently upgraded from a x800 vapor to a 3x pro vapor (size 9.5).
Straight line speed feels good but having trouble with smooth turns and especially braking (really having trouble with my left foot). I found out that i went from a 9ft single radius profile to a 10ft radius, judging by Bauers description.
Another thought is that my old Blade is max 2/3 of the heigth of the new one, so i am bit afraid that the different sharpeners grinded a bit of a custom profile into the steel. I really liked something around 1/2 inch RoH for an strong grip for tight turns and general agility.

Any recommendations (looking at quad or ellipse profiles)?

Thanks in advance!

If you are coming from a radius probably smaller than 9' you will have similar problems with an adequate Quad or Ellipse profile and a 1/2" hollow. Even if you go down one or two sizes. At first I would try a flatter hollow, maybe 5/8" or even 11/16" and adapt a bit to the new profile. After this a Quad Zero could be a good starting point to find a suiting multiradius profile for you. 

[mojo122 535]

7 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

I don't know about the other differences. But Bauer EE  and Fit 3 size skate boots are a half size longer than D or Fit 1+2. You can see this in the sizing charts for the runners and for the Bauer speedplate insoles. 

1/2 sizes in EE and Fit 3 use a holder one size up from D and Fit 1 and 2.  Doesn't mean the skate is a 1/2 size bigger.  Bauer skates in EE and Fit 3 are 1/4 size bigger.  

[hockeydad3 51]

5 hours ago, mojo122 said:

1/2 sizes in EE and Fit 3 use a holder one size up from D and Fit 1 and 2.  Doesn't mean the skate is a 1/2 size bigger.  Bauer skates in EE and Fit 3 are 1/4 size bigger.  

Bigger or longer?

And what about the sizing chart for the speedplate insoles?

https://www.hockeyunlimited.fi/epages/hockeyunlimited.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/2014061601/Categories/Bauer_Speed_Plate_20_kokotaulukko

[HockeyTactics 0]

13 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

If you are coming from a radius probably smaller than 9' you will have similar problems with an adequate Quad or Ellipse profile and a 1/2" hollow. Even if you go down one or two sizes. At first I would try a flatter hollow, maybe 5/8" or even 11/16" and adapt a bit to the new profile. After this a Quad Zero could be a good starting point to find a suiting multiradius profile for you. 

ok yeah makes sense that my current hollow might be a bit too aggressive for these profiles to shine.

I understood i get the agility for turning of a smaller single radius profile and for the long strides i get a bigger radius profile.

Seems like you guys don't really recommend the ellipse. The shared experiences also seems very mixed to me. Pro Sharp Marketing always talks about it being a Zuperior/ Quad profile with steady/continous transitions rather then instant radii changes. This kinda implies to me that they think the ellipse is the next development stage of the fixed radii profiles.

[Ric_Flair 4]

20 hours ago, HockeyTactics said:

ok yeah makes sense that my current hollow might be a bit too aggressive for these profiles to shine.

I understood i get the agility for turning of a smaller single radius profile and for the long strides i get a bigger radius profile.

Seems like you guys don't really recommend the ellipse. The shared experiences also seems very mixed to me. Pro Sharp Marketing always talks about it being a Zuperior/ Quad profile with steady/continous transitions rather then instant radii changes. This kinda implies to me that they think the ellipse is the next development stage of the fixed radii profiles.

FWIW I love the ellipse.