Ellipse Profiles – The next revolution in skate profiling?

[Paluce 24]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:35 PM, beedee said:

My skates were in the stock profile from the factory. I told them (Pure Hockey associate) I didnt care for the taller steel, particularly in the front. I would occasionally toe-pick during my beer league games (causing me to fall) and felt that the taller steel was the culprit.  He recommended a Zuperior S, my skates are a size 7, Bauer Vapor 3x. I used them a few times since I picked them up last weekend and didn’t care for how much it put me on my toes. 

Since I’m your average Joe Schmoe beer leaguer I just went along with his suggestion. PH is about 20 minutes away from me, not far but not too close, especially with SoCal traffic. I work full time, M-F and have two kids, extra time isn’t really in my side. My rink with three sheets of ice doesn’t have a pro shop, hard to believe, I know. So I don’t have the luxury of trying out various profiles and returning to the shop to provide feedback.  At this point due to my own ignorance I feel like it has just been a waste of time and money. I’ll pick up my steel tomorrow and be done with it. I asked them to try to get them back to the original factory profile as best they could. Who knows how it will be. Again, all I really wanted was to have some steel shaved off the toe so it was a smoother, more fluid curve. I’m done with driving back and forth to PH. Gas out here is still close to $5 per gallon and my 4Runner drinks it. So each round trip to PH is costing me $10 or so as well. 

Hey - been meaning to write you back on this because I feel your pain. I think it was a good call to move back to a standard stock single Radius as puckstopproshopjl said.  I wish you were in Canada, I’d profile your steel for free for you until you found some thing you like… as a small shop I just enjoy making players happy when they get on their wheels.  There is no better feeling than hearing “why didn’t I do this 10years ago!”  🙂

[Paluce 24]

23 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

Deke,  I appreciate your comments and I think we're getting to a core issue. When I was Army test flying helicopters, we always started balancing a rotor system by first hovering, putting grams of lead weights on or off the rotor first to "balance" it at a hover. Then we "track' the blades by fixing the "gap" bringing the together by adjusting the Pitch Control Links, before we even start to fly it. This could take a day but was an important step. Getting things to straighten out at a hover BEFORE even flying was an essential first step. If we didn't spend the time on the ground first, it would NEVER be corrected by flying it in the air. This brings me to my point, Blades in the air or blades on the ice, you have pro shops that are throwing you into the air before knowing anything about how you feel on the ice. I start with you standing on your skates with a single radius and tell me WHAT you feel. Where is your center of gravity (GC).  Then we slowly work through what you're saying by trying single or combination radius first.  Correct yourself first by going back to a single radius. Find your CG, then start adjustments by moving a pivot point, fore or aft.  Now, more acceleration, try a combo 10/13 with "YOUR" pivot point, we continue to work like this until the skater locks in something they like. We work simply and slowly at first, then go more complex and quicker downstream. If you're having problems with your blades, have the neutralize back to a simple profile and work outwards from there.  I work with D1 hockey players, juniors, high school et.  I use this method and give them a "testing" profile which is pre-profiled so costs for doing this are low. Once the skater is locked in, that's when they get charged for the profile. Same cost as if you sent them in the mail to me.  

 

Love the analogy! This is brilliant stuff. You are a real expert. As an Engineer first, I can completely relate to this. Anyone near you or in the US should trust his work.
 

Just to add to this, when I get steel in the mail or in person up here in Canada I always ask for an old blade to analyze/measure. I have the luxury of Laser measuring the current profile on the old blades so I can match the newly profiled steel to the old.  All my Profiles are in CAD and CNC cut so I can profile and set pitch precise to the 0.001deg while removing only a few thou of steel. New technology is nice 🙂  Now usually the old profile has changed after being sharpened a bunch of times, but It’s a very good starting point. Taking the persons feedback is critical too. Point is, bring your steel to someone knowledgeable and you will have a better experience once you step on the ice again. That’s the most important thing.

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

10 hours ago, Paluce said:

Love the analogy! This is brilliant stuff. You are a real expert. As an Engineer first, I can completely relate to this. Anyone near you or in the US should trust his work.
 

Just to add to this, when I get steel in the mail or in person up here in Canada I always ask for an old blade to analyze/measure. I have the luxury of Laser measuring the current profile on the old blades so I can match the newly profiled steel to the old.  All my Profiles are in CAD and CNC cut so I can profile and set pitch precise to the 0.001deg while removing only a few thou of steel. New technology is nice 🙂  Now usually the old profile has changed after being sharpened a bunch of times, but It’s a very good starting point. Taking the persons feedback is critical too. Point is, bring your steel to someone knowledgeable and you will have a better experience once you step on the ice again. That’s the most important thing.

Good advice, I couldn't agree more

[the_game 452]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:49 AM, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

Deke,  I appreciate your comments and I think we're getting to a core issue. When I was Army test flying helicopters, we always started balancing a rotor system by first hovering, putting grams of lead weights on or off the rotor first to "balance" it at a hover. Then we "track' the blades by fixing the "gap" bringing the together by adjusting the Pitch Control Links, before we even start to fly it. This could take a day but was an important step. Getting things to straighten out at a hover BEFORE even flying was an essential first step. If we didn't spend the time on the ground first, it would NEVER be corrected by flying it in the air. This brings me to my point, Blades in the air or blades on the ice, you have pro shops that are throwing you into the air before knowing anything about how you feel on the ice. I start with you standing on your skates with a single radius and tell me WHAT you feel. Where is your center of gravity (GC).  Then we slowly work through what you're saying by trying single or combination radius first.  Correct yourself first by going back to a single radius. Find your CG, then start adjustments by moving a pivot point, fore or aft.  Now, more acceleration, try a combo 10/13 with "YOUR" pivot point, we continue to work like this until the skater locks in something they like. We work simply and slowly at first, then go more complex and quicker downstream. If you're having problems with your blades, have the neutralize back to a simple profile and work outwards from there.  I work with D1 hockey players, juniors, high school et.  I use this method and give them a "testing" profile which is pre-profiled so costs for doing this are low. Once the skater is locked in, that's when they get charged for the profile. Same cost as if you sent them in the mail to me.  

 

I’m lucky enough to have this guy as my local skate sharpener!

[kvm 0]

Hi
I am looking for recommendations for profiling. My local shop hasn't been very helpful simply because they only have one option (dual radius 9.5/10.5 with a 1.5mm forward drop).

A few months ago I bought new skates, True TF7, size 9.5, shift holder 280. Coming from Bauer Nexus 6000, 9.5, 280 holders. My old skates had a maximum edge profile that I loved, lots of control in cornering, and decent speed. 

Stock profile I felt stuck going in a straight line, going into and coming out of tight turns.  Went to the 9.5/10.5 with a 1.5mm forward drop, I find it like skating in quick sand in corners (hard to snap out of corners, the speed doesn't carry), and top speed isn't there.
I'd gladly do maximum edge again but the local shop has stopped doing maximum edge sharpening. Any recommendations what I should try first?  From the little bit of research I feel like the ellipse 0 or 1 is a good start. Thoughts?

[Paluce 24]

On 12/14/2022 at 2:45 PM, kvm said:

Hi
I am looking for recommendations for profiling. My local shop hasn't been very helpful simply because they only have one option (dual radius 9.5/10.5 with a 1.5mm forward drop).

A few months ago I bought new skates, True TF7, size 9.5, shift holder 280. Coming from Bauer Nexus 6000, 9.5, 280 holders. My old skates had a maximum edge profile that I loved, lots of control in cornering, and decent speed. 

Stock profile I felt stuck going in a straight line, going into and coming out of tight turns.  Went to the 9.5/10.5 with a 1.5mm forward drop, I find it like skating in quick sand in corners (hard to snap out of corners, the speed doesn't carry), and top speed isn't there.
I'd gladly do maximum edge again but the local shop has stopped doing maximum edge sharpening. Any recommendations what I should try first?  From the little bit of research I feel like the ellipse 0 or 1 is a good start. Thoughts?

Hey, the Elipse 0 or Elipse 1 will not give you the speed or glide that the Max Edge 981 had. That profile has a nice flat spot in the middle of the blade. Hence why that style profile is popular in the NHL. Speed!  If you want a profile like an elipse 0 or 1 that is agile and has less steel at the toe, I have an Elipse-Maximum Edge 981 hybrid that is becoming super popular with some high level players. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Paluce

[kvm 0]

26 minutes ago, Paluce said:

Hey, the Elipse 0 or Elipse 1 will not give you the speed or glide that the Max Edge 981 had. That profile has a nice flat spot in the middle of the blade. Hence why that style profile is popular in the NHL. Speed!  If you want a profile like an elipse 0 or 1 that is agile and has less steel at the toe, I have an Elipse-Maximum Edge 981 hybrid that is becoming super popular with some high level players. 
 

I morphed two profiles in CAD to give the continuously variable Elipse toe and heal but with a Center glide section for that speed.  It’s unreal. 

That makes sense why I've been missing the top end speed. Probably some stability as well. 

That's profile sounds really interesting. I'd definitely give it a try. 

[218hockey 50]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:36 PM, the_game said:

I’m lucky enough to have this guy as my local skate sharpener!

Yes you are but that's like .1% of players. Most of just have to pick something and then that's what we have. We're on what ever came with the Ultrasonics, Quad 1 I believe so that's what we had our new runners ground to as well.

[vp1304 3]

On 9/27/2022 at 11:15 PM, hockeydad3 said:

Ellipse Zero with a 7/8 ROH is Prosharps recommendation for your skate size. If you are coming from a deeper hollow I would suggest to try it with a 3/4 ROH. Or try a Quad Zero (also recommendated from Prosharp for your skate size) with a 3/4 ROH, which has a more traditional feeling.

where do you find ROH recommendation linked with profile ? thanks

[hockeydad3 51]

13 hours ago, vp1304 said:

where do you find ROH recommendation linked with profile ? thanks

The information is from a Prosharp promotional flyer (a type of cardboard dial).

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:56 PM, Paluce said:

Hey, the Elipse 0 or Elipse 1 will not give you the speed or glide that the Max Edge 981 had. That profile has a nice flat spot in the middle of the blade. Hence why that style profile is popular in the NHL. Speed!  If you want a profile like an elipse 0 or 1 that is agile and has less steel at the toe, I have an Elipse-Maximum Edge 981 hybrid that is becoming super popular with some high level players. 
 

I morphed two profiles in CAD to give the continuously variable Elipse toe and heal but with a Center glide section for that speed.  It’s unreal. 

Does this also adjust the pivot point, or do you do that manually if the customer requests such? 

[Paluce 24]

1 hour ago, VegasHockey said:

Does this also adjust the pivot point, or do you do that manually if the customer requests such? 

Because of the glide surface on this profile, I don’t move the pivot point back,,, that would put the glide surface behind the Center of the blade. You want it in the middle. I will pitch the blade a certain amount of degree’s. 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 degrees.   If a customer wants the Center glide surface a few mm forwards, sure no problem, but I’m talking 5mm or less.

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 12/17/2022 at 7:51 PM, Paluce said:

Because of the glide surface on this profile, I don’t move the pivot point back,,, that would put the glide surface behind the Center of the blade. You want it in the middle. I will pitch the blade a certain amount of degree’s. 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 degrees.   If a customer wants the Center glide surface a few mm forwards, sure no problem, but I’m talking 5mm or less.

Interesting. I personally have never liked skating on a CAG, but a glide area mixed with a gradual increase of radii might feel good. 

[RiseNGrind 0]

I'm on 272 w/ Ellipse 0 @ 11/16 and for the most part I've been happy but share some of the frustrations mentioned on this thread - too much steel under toe, long feeling and heavy feet with certain maneuvers.   I'm considering trying a Quad profile to help with some agility but I don't want too far of a foward lean and something not too off where I am now.   Perhaps Ellipse XS may be the ticket but I don't have the time and money to be playing this game for long.  

From what I've heard thus far, everyone feels that by going with an Ellipse profile you should go down 1, if not 2 steps from where you are with Quad.  I'm trying these in reverse and while following ProSharps recommended based off size/runner and based off what I mentioned above, should I start with a Quad 1 or a Quad 0?   I feel like Prosharps recommended sizes are off for the Ellipse but not for the Quad.  Not sure....

I'm kicking myself for not trying the Pulse Ti that came with my Ultrasonics in Quad as we immediately profiled them to match my previous skates.  I just found some Step Steel for LS Edge holders new as I miss the step steel from my CCM's but I'm not sure how to profile them at this point.   I expect I'll need to go down to 3/4 though....

Thanks 

 

 

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

2 hours ago, RiseNGrind said:

I'm on 272 w/ Ellipse 0 @ 11/16 and for the most part I've been happy but share some of the frustrations mentioned on this thread - too much steel under toe, long feeling and heavy feet with certain maneuvers.   I'm considering trying a Quad profile to help with some agility, but I don't want too far of a forward lean and something not too off where I am now.   Perhaps Ellipse XS may be the ticket but I don't have the time and money to be playing this game for long.  

From what I've heard thus far, everyone feels that by going with an Ellipse profile you should go down 1, if not 2 steps from where you are with Quad.  I'm trying these in reverse and while following ProSharps recommended based off size/runner and based off what I mentioned above, should I start with a Quad 1 or a Quad 0?   I feel like Prosharps recommended sizes are off for the Ellipse but not for the Quad.  Not sure....

I'm kicking myself for not trying the Pulse Ti that came with my Ultrasonics in Quad as we immediately profiled them to match my previous skates.  I just found some Step Steel for LS Edge holders new as I miss the step steel from my CCM's but I'm not sure how to profile them at this point.   I expect I'll need to go down to 3/4 though....

Thanks 

 

 

I read this a few times. Unfortunately, there's a lot going on here and it's difficult to give an opinion without having more information. What were you skating on before you? What type of skater are you?  

 The only thing I can offer is this, the QUAD I will feel long on a 272 holder. I find its best for 280 to 288.  For a 272 holder,  Zuperior S, Quad Zero or Ellipse Zero are the best. Once you fine the profile line, adjust up or down depending on whether your looking for agility or stability. Quad .5 isn't talked about much here, but my experience as a pro shop owner is Quad .5 work really well with Defensemen from 5" 10" or taller and about 180lbs and above. I have 5 elite dmen skating on Quad .5.  Definitely fills a gap between Quad Zero and Quad I.  My defensemen on Quad .5 (Holder size 272 and 280) skate in the NESCAC, NCDC, ACHA, EHL and high school. No forwards currently skate on Quad.5. Hope this helps. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL

[Paluce 24]

3 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

If you go in reverse, from more aggressive to less aggressive, I'm afraid you won't have much steel left 😞

The overall change in rocker between a Quad 1 and a Quad 0 is less than 0.4mm. That is all you have to take off. On my Blackstone, I can do this with ease. 
 

So this is another example of my issue with the Elipse series. You don’t know what you are skating on… you don’t know the radio at any specific points. And I know it is constantly changing, and it is an A radius and B radius equation.. but they should tell you what the local radius is at given points along the profile.  
 

RiseandGrind - what I do for cases like yours is I bring in a side view image into CAD, extract the bottom edge and analyze the profile to see exactly what you have. Then we can work together and make recommendations. 
 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Paluce

[RiseNGrind 0]

4 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

I read this a few times. Unfortunately, there's a lot going on here and it's difficult to give an opinion without having more information. What were you skating on before you? What type of skater are you?  

I was skating on the stock profile that came with a few skates and always felt too much of a rocker with those until someone suggested I speak to someone to get them profiled.  I'm in my mid 40's getting back into this from a long time off and playing 2-3 times per week now for a few years.  I would say I'm more of a power forward and I was recommended the Elllipse Zero which is what I'm still skating on.

 

1 hour ago, Paluce said:

RiseandGrind - what I do for cases like yours is I bring in a side view image into CAD, extract the bottom edge and analyze the profile to see exactly what you have. Then we can work together and make recommendations. 

So first, thanks everyone for the replies.  To clarify I am likely not gong to profile my current Pulse Ti that has Ellipse Zero, but start fresh with the new step steel I just purchased so it's a clean slate.  I'm just trying to determine if I should try something new with Quad and if so how it would compare to my current Ellise 0.   Will the Quad Zero lean me more forward compared to the Ellipse Zero?   With what I'm using now, I guess I would be open to a little less blade to ice contact for agility unless it's drastic which it doesn't seem like it would be based off feedback.   I'd just hate to profile some fresh steel only to do it again.

[beedee 227]

Is there a profile out there to best mimic the out of the box Vapor profile for a brand new Mach? I love how the Machs feel on my feet, but after being in Vapors for so long, it felt really awkward to skate on them. I have two public sessions on my Machs and still don't feel as confident and solid on them as I do in my Vapors. I know they have a more neutral feel than Vapors, but I still feel like I'm on my heels.

[raganblink 82]

17 minutes ago, beedee said:

Is there a profile out there to best mimic the out of the box Vapor profile for a brand new Mach? I love how the Machs feel on my feet, but after being in Vapors for so long, it felt really awkward to skate on them. I have two public sessions on my Machs and still don't feel as confident and solid on them as I do in my Vapors. I know they have a more neutral feel than Vapors, but I still feel like I'm on my heels.

I'd either install a 3mm heel lift in each skate (if you're someone who has multiple sets of steel) or do a stock 9' or 10' (depending on preference) with a forward lean to it if it is the only set of steel you use.

 

 

[AnimalFear 18]

1 hour ago, raganblink said:

I'd either install a 3mm heel lift in each skate (if you're someone who has multiple sets of steel) or do a stock 9' or 10' (depending on preference) with a forward lean to it if it is the only set of steel you use.

 

 

Wouldn't switching from the Quad profile standard on the Mach to a Zuperior have a similar effect? I think I read that the Zuperior has a more forward pitch.

[mojo122 535]

24 minutes ago, AnimalFear said:

Wouldn't switching from the Quad profile standard on the Mach to a Zuperior have a similar effect? I think I read that the Zuperior has a more forward pitch.

Quad profiles came standard on the Ultrasonic.  Mach comes without steel.  Aftermarket Bauer runners come with a 10' profile.

[Paluce 24]

2 hours ago, beedee said:

Is there a profile out there to best mimic the out of the box Vapor profile for a brand new Mach? I love how the Machs feel on my feet, but after being in Vapors for so long, it felt really awkward to skate on them. I have two public sessions on my Machs and still don't feel as confident and solid on them as I do in my Vapors. I know they have a more neutral feel than Vapors, but I still feel like I'm on my heels.

What Vapor skate did you have?  

[beedee 227]

2 hours ago, Paluce said:

What Vapor skate did you have?  

Vapor 3x, and I only had one set of steel. Machs have one set, Pulse TI.

Edited February 3, 2023 by beedee

[PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL 6]

3 hours ago, raganblink said:

I'd either install a 3mm heel lift in each skate (if you're someone who has multiple sets of steel) or do a stock 9' or 10' (depending on preference) with a forward lean to it if it is the only set of steel you use.

 

 

Do you know what was on the Vapor for a Profile ?

[AnimalFear 18]

2 hours ago, mojo122 said:

Quad profiles came standard on the Ultrasonic.  Mach comes without steel.  Aftermarket Bauer runners come with a 10' profile.

My point would remain, though, right? If they switch from a single 10' profile, wouldn't the Zuperior give them a little more forward pitch without having to have a lift installed?