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Carbonlite runners from Hyperlite

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I prefer the explanation that it isn't a liquid layer but highly mobile ice molecules on the surface that have very weak bonds holding them together, think of a layer of ball bearings (individual ice molecules) sitting on the surface of the ice that are just hanging onto each other. Temperature, contact pressure and speed determine how these molecules act. There have been a number of research papers produced over the last few years that confirm this at a molecular level, here is a recent one.https://journals.aps.org/prx/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevX.11.011025. To quote from the conclusion "However, in the given temperature domain, we measure a continuous decrease of the friction, independent of the presence or thickness of a liquidlike water layer. Therefore, we interpret the measured Arrhenius behavior of the friction coefficient as a result of ice-surface diffusion."

Now if you want to debate that a single unbound ice molecule is really a water molecule - this is where I exit stage left....🥶

 

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1 hour ago, Vet88 said:

I prefer the explanation that it isn't a liquid layer but highly mobile ice molecules on the surface that have very weak bonds holding them together, think of a layer of ball bearings (individual ice molecules) sitting on the surface of the ice that are just hanging onto each other. Temperature, contact pressure and speed determine how these molecules act. There have been a number of research papers produced over the last few years that confirm this at a molecular level, here is a recent one.https://journals.aps.org/prx/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevX.11.011025. To quote from the conclusion "However, in the given temperature domain, we measure a continuous decrease of the friction, independent of the presence or thickness of a liquidlike water layer. Therefore, we interpret the measured Arrhenius behavior of the friction coefficient as a result of ice-surface diffusion."

Now if you want to debate that a single unbound ice molecule is really a water molecule - this is where I exit stage left....🥶

 

Yep, even that paper is seemingly using “ice” molecules and “water” molecules interchangeably 

“Ice friction is thus low due to the high mobility of the water molecules at the slider-on-ice interface at temper- atures close to the ice melting point. This slipperiness can be suppressed by increasing the local contact pressure towards the ice hardness. It is the exceptionally high hardness of ice, close to its melting point, that enables the slipperiness of ice and distinguishes ice from other solids.”

If this paper is accurate, then the lower mass of lighter steel runners doesn’t increase gliding due to higher surface melting. But does it lead to decreased contact force and therefore lower friction due to the decreased mass? 

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13 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Manufacturers have been trying to shave grams off of the runner weight for decades, just like they've been trying to do to all the equipment.  They switched the holders from metal to plastic.  Then they added holes to them.  Then they added holes to the steel runners.  T Blades made a runner that was a smaller piece of metal and a lrger plastic holder.  Bauer tried fusing aluminum to the steel.  Now they're trying that with carbon fiber.

If there was no tangible benefit, skate manufacturers wouldn't have been trying to cut weight essentially since they started making skates.  I agree that the redution of even 35% of the weight of a runner, which results in just a few grams, is likely not going to make anyone faster or better when taken as a weight savings.  However, there are two reasons I can think of that would actually make a difference and cause an improvement in performance.  

The first is overall weight distribution and balance.  These runners are being included on Bauer's flagship skates.  Those skates are incredibly light overall.  Changing the distribution of the weight by even a few grams could make a pretty big difference to how the skates feel to the player.  Reducing the amount of weight underneath the foot would likely improve the feeling the skater has with the ice.  CCM has gone to one piece boots, not just to cut overall weight, but to eliminate the midsole and the weight under the foot as a result.  As an example of this, forget the weight of composite vs wood sticks where the difference is huge, but look at how changing just a few grams here or there can result in a composite stick that feels too blade heavy, or not blade heavy enough to give good puck feel.  Look at how adding one or two grams of lead tape to a golf clubs changes the swing weight and performance.  

Second is playing off T Blades design, and goes along with the development of countless methods of reducing drag like blade profiles, FBV, Z Channel, Flare blades, and many others.  Skating creates friction between the metal blade and the ice.  That friction heats the metal and causes surface melting, that melting is what allows us to glide on the ice.  When skates are too sharp, the edges penetrate the surface melt and dig, reducing glide.  By reducing the amount of metal in the runner, you also reduce the mass of the blade.  Reducing the mass of the blade allows it to heat faster and higher, causing more surface melt, and increasing glide.  An increase in glide and a reduction of drag could increase overall speed, manueverability, efficiency, and endurance, far more than the simple reduction in weight of a few grams could.  Plus, less metal likely means less rigidity, and more flex on the blade.  That flex creates more energy return, acceleration, and stopping efficiency (part of the theory behind Bladetech runners).

so you do agree then that taking off your socks increases your performance and allows you to outcompete opponents.  you think you could measurably show a player with improved stamina and agility because they didnt wear socks?

 

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15 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Manufacturers have been trying to shave grams off of the runner weight for decades, just like they've been trying to do to all the equipment.  They switched the holders from metal to plastic.  Then they added holes to them.  Then they added holes to the steel runners.  T Blades made a runner that was a smaller piece of metal and a lrger plastic holder.  Bauer tried fusing aluminum to the steel.  Now they're trying that with carbon fiber.

If there was no tangible benefit, skate manufacturers wouldn't have been trying to cut weight essentially since they started making skates.  I agree that the redution of even 35% of the weight of a runner, which results in just a few grams, is likely not going to make anyone faster or better when taken as a weight savings.  However, there are two reasons I can think of that would actually make a difference and cause an improvement in performance.  

The first is overall weight distribution and balance.  These runners are being included on Bauer's flagship skates.  Those skates are incredibly light overall.  Changing the distribution of the weight by even a few grams could make a pretty big difference to how the skates feel to the player.  Reducing the amount of weight underneath the foot would likely improve the feeling the skater has with the ice.  CCM has gone to one piece boots, not just to cut overall weight, but to eliminate the midsole and the weight under the foot as a result.  As an example of this, forget the weight of composite vs wood sticks where the difference is huge, but look at how changing just a few grams here or there can result in a composite stick that feels too blade heavy, or not blade heavy enough to give good puck feel.  Look at how adding one or two grams of lead tape to a golf clubs changes the swing weight and performance.  

Second is playing off T Blades design, and goes along with the development of countless methods of reducing drag like blade profiles, FBV, Z Channel, Flare blades, and many others.  Skating creates friction between the metal blade and the ice.  That friction heats the metal and causes surface melting, that melting is what allows us to glide on the ice.  When skates are too sharp, the edges penetrate the surface melt and dig, reducing glide.  By reducing the amount of metal in the runner, you also reduce the mass of the blade.  Reducing the mass of the blade allows it to heat faster and higher, causing more surface melt, and increasing glide.  An increase in glide and a reduction of drag could increase overall speed, manueverability, efficiency, and endurance, far more than the simple reduction in weight of a few grams could.  Plus, less metal likely means less rigidity, and more flex on the blade.  That flex creates more energy return, acceleration, and stopping efficiency (part of the theory behind Bladetech runners).

Nailed it! 

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1 hour ago, stick9 said:

Nailed it! 

Not only does he not nail it he's completely wrong on the physics.  He's making all that up.  About the ice and the heat! That's ludicrous and fake science.

More metal in the blade will disperse that heat better.  Metal disperses heat very quickly.  Carbon fiber does not.  Carbon fiber would keep the blade warmer and insulate the top of the blade, trapping the heat.  A standard metal top half will pull that heat away from the blade and quickly dissipate that heat to the environment.

Not to mention that's total nonsense for performance but it's just horrible science too.

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4 hours ago, mhein22 said:

Not only does he not nail it he's completely wrong on the physics.  He's making all that up.  About the ice and the heat! That's ludicrous and fake science.

More metal in the blade will disperse that heat better.  Metal disperses heat very quickly.  Carbon fiber does not.  Carbon fiber would keep the blade warmer and insulate the top of the blade, trapping the heat.  A standard metal top half will pull that heat away from the blade and quickly dissipate that heat to the environment.

Not to mention that's total nonsense for performance but it's just horrible science too.

Stop It Get Some Help GIFs | Tenor

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2 hours ago, mhein22 said:

Not only does he not nail it he's completely wrong on the physics.  He's making all that up.  About the ice and the heat! That's ludicrous and fake science.

More metal in the blade will disperse that heat better.  Metal disperses heat very quickly.  Carbon fiber does not.  Carbon fiber would keep the blade warmer and insulate the top of the blade, trapping the heat.  A standard metal top half will pull that heat away from the blade and quickly dissipate that heat to the environment.

Not to mention that's total nonsense for performance but it's just horrible science too.

They've made huge strides in hockey helmet teach. You should try one.

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1 hour ago, Monty22 said:

Stop It Get Some Help GIFs | Tenor

Highly heat conductive materials transfer temperature more easily than materials with low heat conductivity.

Composite made from carbon fiber and epoxy resin is a material with heat conductivity x 40 times less than aluminum and 10 times less than steel.

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4 hours ago, stick9 said:

They've made huge strides in hockey helmet teach. You should try one.

ya huge strides from people who know science.  psulion22 does not know science. 

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3 hours ago, PBH said:

Highly heat conductive materials transfer temperature more easily than materials with low heat conductivity.

Composite made from carbon fiber and epoxy resin is a material with heat conductivity x 40 times less than aluminum and 10 times less than steel.

you have to spell it out for them, buddy.  so if we are trying to keep the metal edge on the ice cool, what will pull heat away from it faster?  metal or carbon fiber?

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21 hours ago, psulion22 said:

If this paper is accurate, then the lower mass of lighter steel runners doesn’t increase gliding due to higher surface melting. But does it lead to decreased contact force and therefore lower friction due to the decreased mass? 

A reduced ploughing force decreases the friction coefficient so yes a lighter steel runner should glide faster but the trade off is in acceleration and turns where an increase in ploughing force is important.

Lol I'm more concerned about the 30lbs of excess beer baggage I'm carrying around my middle than 30 grams in a skate blade!

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On 9/15/2021 at 6:35 PM, mojo122 said:

What would be nice to know is the number of runners actually sold and in use and the total number of failures.  Without hard data is hard to tell what the true durability is.  

Exactly. And how does that figure compare to traditional steel runners, which of course never break. (Irony alert.) 

I presume aluminium runners are a no go because they wouldn’t hold an edge.

Has anyone ever taken a traditional runner, and milled away a significant portion of the metal? I imagine a lattice structure would preserve a lot of the mechanical properties whilst reducing weight. Perhaps it is too hard to do economically, as stainless steel is not an easy material to machine, especially the hard kind used in runners. 

For higher end players these light runners might decide a game, but for average UK rec players (no idea about US and Canada) they’d be better off getting power skating lessons, learning more hockey technique, going to the gym, and losing weight, as suggested earlier.

Oh, and another point. I remember when Step steel became popular, in part due to the increased height. That of course meant more steel and more weight. People were saying Step was so much better than Bauer steel for example. Now it seems that weight is no longer good, it’s bad. I’m confused …

Maybe what we are seeing here is the applied placebo effect. 

Edited by Leif

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5 hours ago, Leif said:

.Has anyone ever taken a traditional runner, and milled away a significant portion of the metal? I imagine a lattice structure would preserve a lot of the mechanical properties whilst reducing weight. Perhaps it is too hard to do economically, as stainless steel is not an easy material to machine, especially the hard kind used in runners. 

 

Bauer has tried it on a few variations of Vapors, the 8/10 series and the XX come to mind. Maybe there’s a proper balance but it seemed the lost durability in the runner outweighed (no pun) any benefits from reduced weight. 

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5 hours ago, Leif said:

Exactly. And how does that figure compare to traditional steel runners, which of course never break. (Irony alert.) 

I presume aluminium runners are a no go because they wouldn’t hold an edge.

Has anyone ever taken a traditional runner, and milled away a significant portion of the metal? I imagine a lattice structure would preserve a lot of the mechanical properties whilst reducing weight. Perhaps it is too hard to do economically, as stainless steel is not an easy material to machine, especially the hard kind used in runners. 

For higher end players these light runners might decide a game, but for average UK rec players (no idea about US and Canada) they’d be better off getting power skating lessons, learning more hockey technique, going to the gym, and losing weight, as suggested earlier.

Oh, and another point. I remember when Step steel became popular, in part due to the increased height. That of course meant more steel and more weight. People were saying Step was so much better than Bauer steel for example. Now it seems that weight is no longer good, it’s bad. I’m confused …

Maybe what we are seeing here is the applied placebo effect. 

Both Bauer and CCM produced a perforated runner for a while.  Bauer's had small triangles cut out.  CCM used larger scoops.  As Buzz pointed out, durability was an issue, especially on the Bauer version.

Step Steel has always been considered superior because of the steel they are made from.  It's a better quality, more consistent, sharpened better, and held an edge longer.  The height and weight aren't as big of a factor.

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On 9/21/2021 at 10:13 PM, Vet88 said:

A reduced ploughing force decreases the friction coefficient so yes a lighter steel runner should glide faster but the trade off is in acceleration and turns where an increase in ploughing force is important.

Lol I'm more concerned about the 30lbs of excess beer baggage I'm carrying around my middle than 30 grams in a skate blade!

Though then a lighter runner would glide faster, but sharper edges could be used to counteract the loss of mass for ploughing force. 
Here’s a very basic article essentially stating that all, and none, of the explanations for the slipperiness of ice are completely accurate. 
https://www.insidescience.org/news/why-ice-slippery-its-not-simple-question

yeah, I don’t disagree with that at all. Even if friction melting is happening, most people are going to see more improvement by reducing weight in other places, mostly their midsections!

 

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35 minutes ago, psulion22 said:

Step Steel has always been considered superior because of the steel they are made from.  It's a better quality, more consistent, sharpened better, and held an edge longer.  The height and weight aren't as big of a factor.

Indeed. And then Bauer copied Step steel with higher runners, and improved steel. So back then noone noticed a difference going to heavier runners, and yet we are now told that weight is a significant factor. I’ll just stick to ordinary non carbon runners made from decent steel. 

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2 hours ago, psulion22 said:

Though then a lighter runner would glide faster, but sharper edges could be used to counteract the loss of mass for ploughing force. 
Here’s a very basic article essentially stating that all, and none, of the explanations for the slipperiness of ice are completely accurate. 
https://www.insidescience.org/news/why-ice-slippery-its-not-simple-question

yeah, I don’t disagree with that at all. Even if friction melting is happening, most people are going to see more improvement by reducing weight in other places, mostly their midsections!

 

again this produces a zero effect on the player.  its making the same argument as claiming that pulling threads from your jersey or cutting the tag out makes you faster or less fatigued.  it doesnt.  all the tens of thousands of pounds of force that a player, especially a pro, produces during a game are entirely unaffected by a 2 ounce lighter skate blade.

a blade on the ice creating ice melt has all the weight of the player on it, plus the compression force of the players leg accelerating that mass forward.  so its 185+ lbs plus whatever compression force from the leg muscle.  the weight of the skate blade is entirely negligible in that equation.  the arguments being made here are purely semantics and not at all practical.  its like talking about being faster by not wearing socks.  its ludicrous.  

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19 hours ago, mhein22 said:

again this produces a zero effect on the player.  its making the same argument as claiming that pulling threads from your jersey or cutting the tag out makes you faster or less fatigued.  it doesnt.  all the tens of thousands of pounds of force that a player, especially a pro, produces during a game are entirely unaffected by a 2 ounce lighter skate blade. 

Wait, you leave the tags and loose threads on your jerseys and socks?! Rookie 

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19 hours ago, Westside said:

Wait, you leave the tags and loose threads on your jerseys and socks?! Rookie 

I cut holes in my hockey socks and shirts to reduce weight. Of course Jewish and Muslim men have another weight advantage, but I won’t go into details here, let’s just say there are some weight reduction measures that I consider too extreme.

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On 9/25/2021 at 4:48 AM, Leif said:

I cut holes in my hockey socks and shirts to reduce weight. Of course Jewish and Muslim men have another weight advantage, but I won’t go into details here, let’s just say there are some weight reduction measures that I consider too extreme.

you know whats funny i was just watching a preseason game and they were showing them mic'cing guys up and its this mic and has this battery/transmitter pack that looks like it weighs as much as a cell phone or something, and these dudes are wearing them all the time to play in actual NHL games.  made me think of this thread and the "performance" enhancements 😂😂😂

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On 9/17/2021 at 8:15 AM, stick9 said:

Curious why Bauer choose to fuse the two parts. Why not make the carbon fiber part a spacer for a new lower height runner. That way the steel is replaceable after it's worn.

Also curious as to why they haven't tried titanium. Too brittle...too hard to sharpen? There has to be more to it than just cost.

Step tried a titanium/stainless steel hybrid similar to Fusion; was called TiSS - never made it to market.  

On 9/17/2021 at 9:02 AM, flip12 said:

Second paragraph, weren’t Ti runners used in the 90’s? What’s the story with those?

TiN coating - was gold plated.  Last company to do that was Tydan.

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