P28 Use Among NHL Defencemen

[boo10 323]

Stopped in at several GTA Hockey Shops yesterday, most of which had a large selection of prostock sticks.  I enjoy looking at the sticks to see what specs players are using (or have tried).  I was very surprised to see that most of the sticks (>80%) from NHL D were a P28 or slight variation.  On the other hand, most of the sticks from forwards were P92, (or a modified P92).

Just something I found interesting, as P28 is thought of as more of a "Shooter's curve", with passing being mostly an afterthought.

[flip12 715]

29 minutes ago, boo10 said:

Stopped in at several GTA Hockey Shops yesterday, most of which had a large selection of prostock sticks.  I enjoy looking at the sticks to see what specs players are using (or have tried).  I was very surprised to see that most of the sticks (>80%) from NHL D were a P28 or slight variation.  On the other hand, most of the sticks from forwards were P92, (or a modified P92).

Just something I found interesting, as P28 is thought of as more of a "Shooter's curve", with passing being mostly an afterthought.

P28 is a great passing curve, just like its predecessor, Easton Drury/E6. The toe modifications don’t take the Drury away; just add a little party to the tail end.

Edited December 28, 2023 by flip12
Correcting auto-correct.

[boo10 323]

24 minutes ago, flip12 said:

P28 is a great passing curve, just like its predecessor, Easton Drury/E6. The toe modifications don’t take the Drury away; just add a little party to the tail end.

Fair enough.  I've never used one, but I do currently use a P90TM and find the toe hook mostly just gets in my way.

I just found it interesting that so many defencemen are using the P28, while the P92 still seems to dominate among forwards.

[flip12 715]

1 hour ago, boo10 said:

Fair enough.  I've never used one, but I do currently use a P90TM and find the toe hook mostly just gets in my way.

I just found it interesting that so many defencemen are using the P28, while the P92 still seems to dominate among forwards.

There are plenty of forwards using P28 too. I don't know statisticks on it or anything, but I can think of a lot of notable players using P28. Then there's the Oates effect where he funnels a lot of players to Stamkos' P92 variant, or something close to it. Funnily enough, Stammer's actually gone the other way, using P28 the last few years.

When it comes down to it, P28 and P92 are more alike than they are different. Both 1) have a decent amount of loft without being obscenely open, 2) are compound heel-and-toe curves, 3) with a flat(ter) heel rocker and more aggressive toe rocker. The toe shapes are different of course, and the discontinuity of the heel-to-toe rocker is a bit more pronounced on P28, but to me, the main difference is the gravitational center of the compound curve pocket is at the heel of the P92 and at the toe of the P28. That's the thing I love about the P28 that I was missing until it came on the scene--the toe-dominant pocket. The aggressiveness of the standard heel curve that formed the basis of most of the patterns of yore threw me off. Sher-Wood Coffey and Montreal PC were some exceptions, P89 as well (when you could find it), with a few other short-lived Warriors like the Smyth and Gionta were some notable exceptions.

If only Bjugstad had made the P46 a blend of the E4 blade face with the P28 curve instead of the P92, I could call it a day and never have to think about curves ever again. As it is, the P28 works about as well as anything I've ever had my hands on when the balance is right.

Edited December 28, 2023 by flip12
Readability

[iceman8310 106]

2 hours ago, boo10 said:

Stopped in at several GTA Hockey Shops yesterday, most of which had a large selection of prostock sticks.  I enjoy looking at the sticks to see what specs players are using (or have tried).  I was very surprised to see that most of the sticks (>80%) from NHL D were a P28 or slight variation.  On the other hand, most of the sticks from forwards were P92, (or a modified P92).

Just something I found interesting, as P28 is thought of as more of a "Shooter's curve", with passing being mostly an afterthought.

That's really an old school mindset.  The Kreps "p28" really isn't that big of a curve considering how widely used its is now.  Brett burns for example uses a variant of the p28.  A lot of players in europe use a kovalchuk or semin curve.  I think its more of a factor of the european influence on the north american game.  

51 minutes ago, flip12 said:

There are plenty of forwards using P28 too. I don't know statisticks on it or anything, but I can think of a lot of notable players using P28. Then there's the Oates effect where he funnels a lot of players to Stamkos' P92 variant, or something close to it. Funnily enough, Stammer's actually gone the other way, using P28 the last few years.

When it comes down to it, P28 and P92 are more alike than they are different. Both 1) have a decent amount of loft without being obscenely open, 2) are compound heel-and-toe curves, 3) with a flat(ter) heel rocker and more aggressive toe rocker. The toe shapes are different of course, and the discontinuity of the heel-to-toe rocker is a bit more pronounced on P28, but to me, the main difference is the gravitational center of the compound curve pocket is at the heel of the P92 and at the toe of the P28. That's the thing I love about the P28 that I was missing until it came on the scene--the toe-dominant pocket. The aggressiveness of the standard heel curve that formed the basis of most of the patterns of yore threw me off. Sher-Wood Coffey and Montreal PC were some exceptions, P89 as well (when you could find it), with a few other short-lived Warriors like the Smyth and Gionta were some notable exceptions.

If only Bjugstad had made the P46 a blend of the E4 blade face with the P28 curve instead of the P92, I could call it a day and never have to think about curves ever again. As it is, the P28 works about as well as anything I've ever had my hands on when the balance is right.

The p28 comes from the player kamil kreps who used the number 28.  You probably already know that.
 

I use a Kovalchuk/new Kovalchuk/Zherdev curve mixed that I had personally made.  Lie 4

Edited December 28, 2023 by iceman8310

[flip12 715]

2 hours ago, iceman8310 said:

That's really an old school mindset.  The Kreps "p28" really isn't that big of a curve considering how widely used its is now.  Brett burns for example uses a variant of the p28.  A lot of players in europe use a kovalchuk or semin curve.  I think its more of a factor of the european influence on the north american game.  

The p28 comes from the player kamil kreps who used the number 28.  You probably already know that.

I use a Kovalchuk/new Kovalchuk/Zherdev curve mixed that I had personally made.  Lie 4

I'm thinking autocorrect put Brett instead of Brent Burns. BB still looks to be using the Gionta that he's sworn by for years now, which was also Big Mac's go to before going to the P92 he's on now. Barzal used it for a couple of years as well.

I've wondered about the P28 origin. Bjugstad also claims to have invented it, of course. Some say it was Kreps, some say it was Ovechkin or Fisher. We need a proper oral history of this thing because as usual there are conflicting claims, as there are with the Sakic. Sakic said he created it but H. Ghassemi claims to have introduced it to Easton because he couldn't shoot with any of the curves they had in the era of making the T-Flex into the Synergy (he was a product guy there and the original he says the original retail Sakic was his custom curve he had on some Sher-Woods).

I've looked through the images of Kreps on Getty and it looks like he went back and forth between Kovalchuk and Ovechkin patterns before settling on the E28. Those two actually make sense as potential inputs to making the E28. Ovechkin's basically got the E6 with a slightly more mid-focused second pocket. Kovalchuk had the E4 with the toe curve closer to the location of the E28 pocket and a focused toe shave for puck-ice-blade contact. E28 is kind of a blend of those two.

Fisher started using the E28 around the same time though, IIRC. It could be Kreps switched to that after having tried something to either side of it and never looked back. If that were the case, it would seem weird Easton put his number on it, since Fisher was an even more dedicated Easton stick user. They need to get Fisher on one of the hockey podcasts and open up for audience questions so we can some inside perspective.

[iceman8310 106]

16 hours ago, flip12 said:

I'm thinking autocorrect put Brett instead of Brent Burns. BB still looks to be using the Gionta that he's sworn by for years now, which was also Big Mac's go to before going to the P92 he's on now. Barzal used it for a couple of years as well.

I've wondered about the P28 origin. Bjugstad also claims to have invented it, of course. Some say it was Kreps, some say it was Ovechkin or Fisher. We need a proper oral history of this thing because as usual there are conflicting claims, as there are with the Sakic. Sakic said he created it but H. Ghassemi claims to have introduced it to Easton because he couldn't shoot with any of the curves they had in the era of making the T-Flex into the Synergy (he was a product guy there and the original he says the original retail Sakic was his custom curve he had on some Sher-Woods).

I've looked through the images of Kreps on Getty and it looks like he went back and forth between Kovalchuk and Ovechkin patterns before settling on the E28. Those two actually make sense as potential inputs to making the E28. Ovechkin's basically got the E6 with a slightly more mid-focused second pocket. Kovalchuk had the E4 with the toe curve closer to the location of the E28 pocket and a focused toe shave for puck-ice-blade contact. E28 is kind of a blend of those two.

Fisher started using the E28 around the same time though, IIRC. It could be Kreps switched to that after having tried something to either side of it and never looked back. If that were the case, it would seem weird Easton put his number on it, since Fisher was an even more dedicated Easton stick user. They need to get Fisher on one of the hockey podcasts and open up for audience questions so we can some inside perspective.

I think it’s always interesting on the school of thought and particularly where you play on your shooting style.  I was taught at a very young age to always shoot off my toe and I’m 40 now.  Some places said shoot off the curve elsewhere.   I was an early adapter of the Easton euro curve and later the euro tip.  I always would do a pull in curl snapshot/wrist shot probably in 1997 or 1998 and still do to this day.

Edited December 29, 2023 by iceman8310

[start_today 770]

For the history of who developed given curves, don’t we assume it’s like Leibniz and Newton both developing calculus independently at the same time through different routes? 

If there’s enough guys tinkering with curves, eventually two people are gonna get to them same idea. 

[flip12 715]

3 hours ago, start_today said:

For the history of who developed given curves, don’t we assume it’s like Leibniz and Newton both developing calculus independently at the same time through different routes? 

If there’s enough guys tinkering with curves, eventually two people are gonna get to them same idea. 

That's also a possibility. But one that I consider sometimes, not assume.

However, from the anecdotes I've picked up, it seems like those experiments used to branch out in an idiosyncratic evolution. Once in a while, others would hop onto what they saw their buddies using: Yzerman going for Sakic's curve even though Yzerman's own was probably the most used in the NHL at the time, for example. Grant Marshall (I think it was) using Brett Hull's spec, Malkin picking up various patterns from teammates, from Pouliot's stock P88 to Galchenyuk's family's secret sauce pattern. Sometimes you see players start with something and then do pretty much the same thing to it, like Ryan Smyth almost ending up with a mirrored Kovalchuk at the end of his career--except that Smyth was still using wood blades and didn't add the toe shave to his (if not exact, very close to) E4 he was curving. The potential permutation space is vast, yet it's still likely there have been several instances of two players recreating the same thing separately, but in any case, anecdotes I've heard of usually involve one player completely abandoning his stick design evolution branch for another.

[tvuollo 23]

Old video but immediately came to my mind after reading this thread, here's Drew Doughty explaining his curve and why he switched to a toe curve many years back: 

 

[218hockey 50]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:47 PM, boo10 said:

Stopped in at several GTA Hockey Shops yesterday, most of which had a large selection of prostock sticks.  I enjoy looking at the sticks to see what specs players are using (or have tried).  I was very surprised to see that most of the sticks (>80%) from NHL D were a P28 or slight variation.  On the other hand, most of the sticks from forwards were P92, (or a modified P92).

Just something I found interesting, as P28 is thought of as more of a "Shooter's curve", with passing being mostly an afterthought.

I thought that too. How can it be a better passing curve than a 88 or 92?

[StinkyPinky 11]

Personally I was a PP77 player. I loved the curve and the square toe.

Typically I play C/RW, but for ~4 seasons switched to RD and did find the P28 a bit difficult. Slap shots and passes can be too high. You have to adapt your play, but the curve can perform.

As I've been playing RW this season I fell out of practice on point shots somewhat and, for example, stepped into a tee'd up rebound from up top this season and blew it 2" over the crossbar 🥲...I blame the P28 for not scoring.

[flip12 715]

12 hours ago, 218hockey said:

I thought that too. How can it be a better passing curve than a 88 or 92?

The curve doesn’t pass the puck, the player using it does, so whether a curve is good or bad for passing or any other particular facet of stick skills is entirely dependent on how well it correlates with what the preferences of the one who’s wielding it.

I personally like P28 for passing because of the toe-heavy pocket as well as the heel curve and loft combo which makes heel-to-mid-blade saucers very easy. P28’s definitely not for everyone though. While it’s not my favorite passing pattern of all time it’s easily my favorite of what’s readily available these days.

[krisdrum 233]

Just like folks who loved their heel and mid-curves back in the day not understanding the love of the P92, things continue to evolve.  The 28 has been readily available and a popular option for what?  10?  15? 20 years now?  That whole generation of players have grown up with it as a stock retail option.  They've logged thousands of hours with it.  They know it inside and out, like the back of their hand - they've adapted to it.  And due to the popularity of "combo" blades like the P90TM, many more are moving in the same direction.    

[Neo5370 132]

Not surprised it's popular among defenseman.  Letang, Doughty, Eriksson, and OEM adopted it pretty early on.  Younger guys must've just followed suit. 

[flip12 715]

3 hours ago, krisdrum said:

Just like folks who loved their heel and mid-curves back in the day not understanding the love of the P92, things continue to evolve.  The 28 has been readily available and a popular option for what?  10?  15? 20 years now?  That whole generation of players have grown up with it as a stock retail option.  They've logged thousands of hours with it.  They know it inside and out, like the back of their hand - they've adapted to it.  And due to the popularity of "combo" blades like the P90TM, many more are moving in the same direction.    

2012 I think Easton released the E28, with the others following up with it more or less reluctantly due to demand. So yeah, going on 10 years of widespread availability.

What’s a combo blade?

[krisdrum 233]

56 minutes ago, flip12 said:

What’s a combo blade?

I'm no expert, but I see stuff like the P90TM as a combination of many of the attributes of a P92 and a P28, taking aspects from both and creating a "combo" or "hybrid" of the two.  

[218hockey 50]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:30 AM, flip12 said:

The curve doesn’t pass the puck, the player using it does, so whether a curve is good or bad for passing or any other particular facet of stick skills is entirely dependent on how well it correlates with what the preferences of the one who’s wielding it.

I personally like P28 for passing because of the toe-heavy pocket as well as the heel curve and loft combo which makes heel-to-mid-blade saucers very easy. P28’s definitely not for everyone though. While it’s not my favorite passing pattern of all time it’s easily my favorite of what’s readily available these days.

Kind of. The player has to utilize, adapt to, or even overcome the curve.

And a grain of salt with the Doughty character. It's not like he's really explaining anything in that video, he's just kind of talking.

[stick9 892]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:30 AM, flip12 said:

The curve doesn’t pass the puck, the player using it does, so whether a curve is good or bad for passing or any other particular facet of stick skills is entirely dependent on how well it correlates with what the preferences of the one who’s wielding it.

Boom, there it is. And who are we to say what's good or bad for passing. We're a bunch of hacks with day jobs.

[start_today 770]

3 hours ago, 218hockey said:

Kind of. The player has to utilize, adapt to, or even overcome the curve.

And a grain of salt with the Doughty character. It's not like he's really explaining anything in that video, he's just kind of talking.

And just kind of talking as part of an ADVERTISEMENT…..

It’s not a video reporting piece about how players adopted their curves, it’s Easton marketing material. 

[krisdrum 233]

46 minutes ago, start_today said:

And just kind of talking as part of an ADVERTISEMENT…..

It’s not a video reporting piece about how players adopted their curves, it’s Easton marketing material. 

And he even mentions how he uses a different lie than many.  I have a feeling a side by side of his curve vs. the retail version would be eye-opening and not very similar.  

[flip12 715]

5 hours ago, start_today said:

And just kind of talking as part of an ADVERTISEMENT…..

It’s not a video reporting piece about how players adopted their curves, it’s Easton marketing material. 

Speaking of, that reminded me of this gem: 

 

[Yardelm 4]

Love this topic. Recently start switching back and forth between p28 variants and p92/p90/p90tm/benn curves. Variety is the spice of life!
 

My question is, has anyone used the Pastrnak or Kucherov Bauer custom curves? Can’t seem to find much info on these but really want to try them but don’t want to buy both just to try them haha. 
 

From what I can gather, despite being similar they play different. 
 

Also for those interested, I’m pretty sure that Sher-Wood’s p28 is actually the Fisher variant (which is what the Kuch is I think?). It has a smoother and more gradual curve, definitely less of a flat spot and is noticeably shorter. Check out the images below.

Based on Bauers old marketing from Insta, the Sher-Wood looks identical to what Bauer claims is the Fisher. 

Similarity is remarkable isn’t it?

Bauer’s Insta p28 (left) vs Fisher (right): https://ibb.co/F80Pmbq

Sher-Wood p28 (right) vs Bauer p28 (left): https://ibb.co/7Gz19PG

Does anyone have experience playing with the Kuch or Pasta variants? How do they compare to the p28 in terms of shooting, puck handling etc?

Ie) if the Sher-Wood is in fact a Fisher, I notice my accuracy for some reason is not as pin point, perhaps because of the shorter blade, not sure. That said, the gradual curve removes that dead spot of the p28 and getting a shot off that doesn’t flub is substantially better (I used to play high level across the pond and fully admit this sometimes still happens to me with a p28! - also where my obsession with trying different curves started. Loved it when reps came with all their different sticks and curves to try!). Plus puck control is better, again possibly because of the shorter blade. Passing is almost the same but sauce is easier with the Sher-Wood p28 Fisher like curve. Trade offs right?

 

What do you guys think? Would love to hear from some Pasts/Kuch or Fisher users? Thoughts on the Sher-Wood Fisher p28 vs Bauer p28 analysis?

[218hockey 50]

The new McDavid curve? Wasn't the P28 the Hall curve?

[Sniper9 530]

On 4/11/2024 at 4:13 AM, Yardelm said:

Love this topic. Recently start switching back and forth between p28 variants and p92/p90/p90tm/benn curves. Variety is the spice of life!
 

My question is, has anyone used the Pastrnak or Kucherov Bauer custom curves? Can’t seem to find much info on these but really want to try them but don’t want to buy both just to try them haha. 
 

From what I can gather, despite being similar they play different. 
 

Also for those interested, I’m pretty sure that Sher-Wood’s p28 is actually the Fisher variant (which is what the Kuch is I think?). It has a smoother and more gradual curve, definitely less of a flat spot and is noticeably shorter. Check out the images below.

Based on Bauers old marketing from Insta, the Sher-Wood looks identical to what Bauer claims is the Fisher. 

Similarity is remarkable isn’t it?

Bauer’s Insta p28 (left) vs Fisher (right): https://ibb.co/F80Pmbq

Sher-Wood p28 (right) vs Bauer p28 (left): https://ibb.co/7Gz19PG

Does anyone have experience playing with the Kuch or Pasta variants? How do they compare to the p28 in terms of shooting, puck handling etc?

Ie) if the Sher-Wood is in fact a Fisher, I notice my accuracy for some reason is not as pin point, perhaps because of the shorter blade, not sure. That said, the gradual curve removes that dead spot of the p28 and getting a shot off that doesn’t flub is substantially better (I used to play high level across the pond and fully admit this sometimes still happens to me with a p28! - also where my obsession with trying different curves started. Loved it when reps came with all their different sticks and curves to try!). Plus puck control is better, again possibly because of the shorter blade. Passing is almost the same but sauce is easier with the Sher-Wood p28 Fisher like curve. Trade offs right?

 

What do you guys think? Would love to hear from some Pasts/Kuch or Fisher users? Thoughts on the Sher-Wood Fisher p28 vs Bauer p28 analysis?

Bauer, ccm,  true, warrior, sher wood all have very subtle differences in their iteration of the p28. So you might be on to something with ones being based off certain pro curves.