Graf video with Mr. Graf

[helmet91 15]

15 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

If Graf started using more modern tech and materials, that would likely have to redesign their boots. You can't just replace the leather with carbon fiber and expect it to fit and feel the same but lighter and more durable. There's more too that than swapping materials. I don't see graf ever evolving to the level of technology as Bauer true and ccm. They have a market in Europe and it'll probably just stay that way.  I'm assuming they also don't have the size and money for the R/D as well. 

I've been over here four years... granted I'm not in an ice hockey hotbed, but the only time I've seen Graf skates was the rental skate selection at an outdoor rink in the Duesseldorf Christmas Market.  The vast majority of skates/gear I see in this area (BeNeLux) would be Bauer with CCM bringing up the rear.  I see German kids with Warrior here and there (thanks Draisaitl?) but not very often.

Even all the old beer league guys are wearing newer offerings from Bauer and a few CCM...  I never see Graf.  Pretty disappointing.  We were even down in Zuerich a few summers ago at a camp (Ivanov... LOL) and none of the kids were wearing Graf.

 

/anecdotal evidence

Edited February 26 by helmet91

[Leif 161]

11 hours ago, mojo122 said:

There's a lot of misconception here:

1) Scott Van Horne was part of the MLX team so he did have previous production experience prior to launching VH and then having been acquired by True.

2) Supplying non sponsored NHL players comes at the expense of the team so that is very profitable to both Bauer and CCM.

3) CCM also has one-piece boots and thermoformability.

I think you misread some of my remarks: 

2) I referred to non-sponsored players to indicate that their skates were not free. I also used the phrase “I wonder if” to indicate that I don’t know if it is genuinely profitable. When you say it is very profitable, where does that information come from? 

3) I know CCM has one piece boots and high thermoformability, and did not say otherwise. (I’ve only read about it on this forum, never having worn CCM boots.) 

1) Fair enough, I read a biography of him which didn’t mention MLX. That said, he started out in a small company, and I know from experience of working in many small companies that it’s hard to scale up. Cash flow is your enemy, invest huge amounts without the sales and you’re finished. I guess that’s why he went custom first, you build on demand. You don’t need to tool up a large factory and build large quantities. Shops are loathe to stock inventory of expensive products that are unproven. I was chatting to an owner of a local shop, he said they hate top end stock boots. When the new range comes out, they have to sell off old stock on discount, and margins are low, hence they will lose money.

[Leif 161]

14 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

Graf has carbon fibre skates, the Peakspeed line.

https://grafhockey.com/skates/ice/player/peakspeed-pk7900/

The issue is that their overall technology is still lacking significantly compared to TRUE, Bauer, and CCM. 

In regards to how Bauer spends their capital and the overall profitability of that company, understand that none of the big brands are good generating significant revenue. CCM and Bauer are riddled with acquisitions and financial failure; look at their histories. The main reason is that there is not enough market penetration and not enough players. 

• Hockey in the USA: <1M players  
• Basketball in the USA: <23M players
• Baseball in the USA: <15M players
• Football: <7M players

As someone who has owned multiple retail hockey stores of various sizes, a large hockey store would be any retail location that does more than $1M in gross sales annually. A friend who owns a similarly sized retail store (store square footage and addressable population density) makes about $5M. Its also significantly easier to sell baseball, football, soccer, and basketball equipment as compared to ice hockey. 

Thanks, very informative. I always assumed hockey was very big in north america. 

When you say Graf’s overall technology is still lacking, are you referring to holders, steel, thermoformability? 

[stick9 891]

3 hours ago, Leif said:

Thanks, very informative. I always assumed hockey was very big in north america. 

When you say Graf’s overall technology is still lacking, are you referring to holders, steel, thermoformability? 

In certain pockets of the US it is like the North East and upper Midwest. Other regions not so much. Canada is a different story. It's not so much supporting a pro team. That can happen anywhere. It's things like access to ice, youth, adult rec and school teams. 

Edited February 26 by stick9

[flip12 715]

22 hours ago, Leif said:

I’m sure that’s mostly, or maybe completely, true. 

The True skate was pretty much developed by one man and his dog in a shed, and they had no previous production experience. Bauer buy in tech such as CarbonCurv. The advanced hard foam in my Bauer 2S Pro shin pads is polystyrene. The soft squishy foam is bought in tech. They also seem to spend a lot of time designing somewhat dubious features such as CarbonLite blades. In addition Bauer spends a fortune on advertising and sponsoring players. And I do wonder if supplying non sponsored NHL players is genuinely profitable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Graf had the nous to figure out how to produce carbon fibre skates, they understand production on a smallish commercial scale. But they would be expensive. And they would need a decent selling point. True has thermoformability and one piece. True outsource their stock TF7 and TF9 skates to China, I assume they do the same for stock Catalyst and Hzrdus skates too. 

True has their own production facilities in China, if I’m not mistaken, so they’re offshoring it not outsourcing it.

[Leif 161]

9 minutes ago, flip12 said:

True has their own production facilities in China, if I’m not mistaken, so they’re offshoring it not outsourcing it.

They do:

https://www.truetempersports.com/en-us/hockey/hockey/about-us/hockey-technology.html

[Sniper9 530]

22 hours ago, iceman8310 said:

Never heard of the the g75 and pk7900?  Those are skates with modern tech 

When were they released? Exactly. "modern". Carbon fiber isn't modern. How you integrate it with the boot with other materials etc is what puts you apart. CCM and true has a great thermoformable recipe. True also has superior comfort. Bauer has their trustee curv composite that gets tweaks every so years. 

Edited February 26 by Sniper9

[VegasHockey 1280]

15 hours ago, Leif said:

I think you misread some of my remarks: 

2) I referred to non-sponsored players to indicate that their skates were not free. I also used the phrase “I wonder if” to indicate that I don’t know if it is genuinely profitable. When you say it is very profitable, where does that information come from? 

3) I know CCM has one piece boots and high thermoformability, and did not say otherwise. (I’ve only read about it on this forum, never having worn CCM boots.) 

1) Fair enough, I read a biography of him which didn’t mention MLX. That said, he started out in a small company, and I know from experience of working in many small companies that it’s hard to scale up. Cash flow is your enemy, invest huge amounts without the sales and you’re finished. I guess that’s why he went custom first, you build on demand. You don’t need to tool up a large factory and build large quantities. Shops are loathe to stock inventory of expensive products that are unproven. I was chatting to an owner of a local shop, he said they hate top end stock boots. When the new range comes out, they have to sell off old stock on discount, and margins are low, hence they will lose money.

Scott started by initially building custom skates to establish himself in the market and provide players with an option for a better fitting and performing skate. Not saying that other skates didn't offer high performance, but some players were skating in significant pain, even in the custom skates, and many of them considered hanging up their skates due to constant foot problems. Once he built up the brand enough, he sold it to TRUE Temper, as they were looking to expand into the hockey skate market and had extensive access to research, development, engineering, materials, and distribution. He is a very smart individual and has a bachelor of Science Degree and a Masters in Biomechanics. What I find most fascinating about Scott is that, while other brands are constantly duplicating similar efforts in design, and getting similar results, he likes to think outside the box. 

[Sniper9 530]

1 hour ago, VegasHockey said:

Scott started by initially building custom skates to establish himself in the market and provide players with an option for a better fitting and performing skate. Not saying that other skates didn't offer high performance, but some players were skating in significant pain, even in the custom skates, and many of them considered hanging up their skates due to constant foot problems. Once he built up the brand enough, he sold it to TRUE Temper, as they were looking to expand into the hockey skate market and had extensive access to research, development, engineering, materials, and distribution. He is a very smart individual and has a bachelor of Science Degree and a Masters in Biomechanics. What I find most fascinating about Scott is that, while other brands are constantly duplicating similar efforts in design, and getting similar results, he likes to think outside the box. 

Good for Svh... But True is making a name for themselves as the brand that doesn't last... They really need to smarten up with durability with all their "extensive access to r/d"

[VegasHockey 1280]

14 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

Good for Svh... But True is making a name for themselves as the brand that doesn't last... They really need to smarten up with durability with all their "extensive access to r/d"

I know plenty of players that use their products and have had no issues, from recreational to professional levels. Historically, TRUE has had some bumps in the road, as all companies do when they are growing, and I understand that you and others have likely experienced some product defects. However, the vast majority of players have not had that same experience. I don't think its fair to use such a small sample size to determine if a product is or is not durable.

An interesting story. I have some TRUE prototype sticks that have no logos on them. One person I skate with who played NCAA D1 dislikes TRUE as a company. There was no specific reason; he just said he had tried their sticks before and didn't care for them. In a recent game, he broke his primary and backup sticks and asked to use one of my extras. After the game was done, he told me that the stick was one of the best he had ever used and asked me if I could order him a few. You should have seen his face when I told him it was TRUE. It was TRUEly priceless 😜

 

[Sniper9 530]

34 minutes ago, VegasHockey said:

I know plenty of players that use their products and have had no issues, from recreational to professional levels. Historically, TRUE has had some bumps in the road, as all companies do when they are growing, and I understand that you and others have likely experienced some product defects. However, the vast majority of players have not had that same experience. I don't think its fair to use such a small sample size to determine if a product is or is not durable.

An interesting story. I have some TRUE prototype sticks that have no logos on them. One person I skate with who played NCAA D1 dislikes TRUE as a company. There was no specific reason; he just said he had tried their sticks before and didn't care for them. In a recent game, he broke his primary and backup sticks and asked to use one of my extras. After the game was done, he told me that the stick was one of the best he had ever used and asked me if I could order him a few. You should have seen his face when I told him it was TRUE. It was TRUEly priceless 😜

 

I don't deny true sticks and skates perform well. But I stand by durability issues. It's well known a documented with their sticks and also their catalyst skates. To the point where at one point every cat pro skate had additional cf fibre wrapped on the stock shell... The skate issue seemed somewhat hit or miss ill give you that. But their sticks don't last. At all. Unless your definitely of durability is completely different than mine. A stick should last more than two weeks.  And I'm talking at the retail level, not pro stock as I have no experience with their pro stock. 

Edited February 27 by Sniper9

[Leif 161]

17 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

Scott started by initially building custom skates to establish himself in the market and provide players with an option for a better fitting and performing skate. Not saying that other skates didn't offer high performance, but some players were skating in significant pain, even in the custom skates, and many of them considered hanging up their skates due to constant foot problems. Once he built up the brand enough, he sold it to TRUE Temper, as they were looking to expand into the hockey skate market and had extensive access to research, development, engineering, materials, and distribution. He is a very smart individual and has a bachelor of Science Degree and a Masters in Biomechanics. What I find most fascinating about Scott is that, while other brands are constantly duplicating similar efforts in design, and getting similar results, he likes to think outside the box. 

His family were big in speed skating, and he got to national level. The first skates he made were speed skates, so perhaps some of the ideas he has brought to hockey skates came from the speed skating world, as well as his later involvement in MLX. And as you mention, perhaps his biomechanics background helped. I can’t help thinking that the popularity of Bauer in the UK, compared to CCM and True, is due in large part to availability. 

[Sniper9 530]

5 minutes ago, Leif said:

His family were big in speed skating, and he got to national level. The first skates he made were speed skates, so perhaps some of the ideas he has brought to hockey skates came from the speed skating world, as well as his later involvement in MLX. And as you mention, perhaps his biomechanics background helped. I can’t help thinking that the popularity of Bauer in the UK, compared to CCM and True, is due in large part to availability. 

I think @VegasHockeyknows all about the history of svh and true....

[Leif 161]

18 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

I think @VegasHockeyknows all about the history of svh and true....

Don’t doubt it. There a lot of people here who know more than me about hockey etc. However, if you ever need to know about the quantum theory of solids, and mycology, just ask …

[VegasHockey 1280]

45 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

I don't deny true sticks and skates perform well. But I stand by durability issues. It's well known a documented with their sticks and also their catalyst skates. To the point where at one point every cat pro skate had additional cf fibre wrapped on the stock shell... The skate issue seemed somewhat hit or miss ill give you that. But their sticks don't last. At all. Unless your definitely of durability is completely different than mine. A stick should last more than two weeks.  And I'm talking at the retail level, not pro stock as I have no experience with their pro stock. 

In my experience, TRUE sticks break about as often as CCM, Bauer, and Sherwood. There are a lot of variables that account for stick breakage. Its not just the level of play, but the position, size of the player, etc.

For example, it is not uncommon for Centers in the NHL to use a beefier and heavier stick as compared to someone who plays Wing. 

As for the Catalyst skate issues, I think TRUE went too thin on the shell in an attempt to play the "weight savings game" and it blew up in their face. The 2024 Catalyst skates are very impressive, and I don't think you are going to see any of the same issues. I have been testing a pair for a while now, and the durability is very good. 

[mojo122 535]

20 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

In my experience, TRUE sticks break about as often as CCM, Bauer, and Sherwood. There are a lot of variables that account for stick breakage. Its not just the level of play, but the position, size of the player, etc.

So true...only thing I would add to that is technique.

[acura9927 4]

20 hours ago, VegasHockey said:

In my experience, TRUE sticks break about as often as CCM, Bauer, and Sherwood. There are a lot of variables that account for stick breakage. Its not just the level of play, but the position, size of the player, etc.

For example, it is not uncommon for Centers in the NHL to use a beefier and heavier stick as compared to someone who plays Wing. 

As for the Catalyst skate issues, I think TRUE went too thin on the shell in an attempt to play the "weight savings game" and it blew up in their face. The 2024 Catalyst skates are very impressive, and I don't think you are going to see any of the same issues. I have been testing a pair for a while now, and the durability is very good. 

How long did it take for you to get used to the tall height of the skate? I tried it and the skate just threw me off and the 1st few times I could do nothing on the ice, felt like I was learning all over again. Maybe it was the foward feel of the skate too. I just bought Vapor x3.7 the other day , tighter fit for sure over my Graf PK4700. Never had a Vapor line of skate, pretty excited to try it out.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

23 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

I think @VegasHockeyknows all about the history of svh and true....

SVH was involved with KOR, so his hockey skate experience precedes DASC/VH/TRUE.

[VegasHockey 1280]

16 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

SVH was involved with KOR, so his hockey skate experience precedes DASC/VH/TRUE.

I actually skated with someone recently that had KOR Gear Carbon skates. lol

[iceman8310 105]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:58 AM, VegasHockey said:

I know plenty of players that use their products and have had no issues, from recreational to professional levels. Historically, TRUE has had some bumps in the road, as all companies do when they are growing, and I understand that you and others have likely experienced some product defects. However, the vast majority of players have not had that same experience. I don't think its fair to use such a small sample size to determine if a product is or is not durable.

An interesting story. I have some TRUE prototype sticks that have no logos on them. One person I skate with who played NCAA D1 dislikes TRUE as a company. There was no specific reason; he just said he had tried their sticks before and didn't care for them. In a recent game, he broke his primary and backup sticks and asked to use one of my extras. After the game was done, he told me that the stick was one of the best he had ever used and asked me if I could order him a few. You should have seen his face when I told him it was TRUE. It was TRUEly priceless 😜

 

True skates do not last.  I have had 5 pairs from VH - true time line 

[IPv6Freely 2092]

No issue with durability on either VH or retail True. Next pair will be custom True. 

[akravetz 29]

I still love my Graf Ultra G5s. Had them for about 13 to 14 years or so. Yeah, they are heavy. I don't care. Yeah, they are all cut up and battered and bruised but I truly do love those skates. I am so worried that when I do need a new pair, I'll never find that "perfect" fit like my Grafs. 

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

On 2/28/2024 at 12:33 PM, VegasHockey said:

I actually skated with someone recently that had KOR Gear Carbon skates. lol

One of my best friends - @joshy207 - who passed away in November, wore KOR Shift2.  He rotated 3 pair.