flip12
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Posts posted by flip12
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For those who want to keep their loops cut, what about adding some padding to the thumb pouch? It wouldn't help with the hyperextension risks, but it would minimize damage from impacts.
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13 hours ago, epstud74 said:P88 is more of a mid curve than a P92, which is more of a toe curve. I prefer the P40/P88 when shooting from the dots and back.
When I think of the P88, I’m more or less thinking of the old Easton Sakic, which I still use. HockeyMonkey says the Ovechkin P92 is the P88, but I disagree and the P92 is more of a toe kink/curve with the intention of lifting the puck more easily. I prefer to keep my shots a little lower but I can see why it’s so popular.
P92 is a heel/mid curve. It opens at the toe but the curve itself is at its slowest rate of change from the middle of the blade to the toe.
Which Easton Sakic are you thinking of because I can’t recall any that resemble a P88?
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4 hours ago, 2nhockey said:I had business on the other side of the state yesterday that brought me to within 30 minutes of the hockey shop so I stopped in and found some Graf PK1900 and 3900 to try on. The 1900’s felt absolutely terrible. The 3900’s felt kind of ok. Completely different skate than the 1900. I couldn’t even see how they were related.
The 3900’s just didn’t have enough volume. My feet felt like they were busting out of the skate. Pencil test failed from 2nd eyelet down all the way to about 3rd eyelet from the bottom. Second was arch pain immediately behind my arches.
Do 755’s have more volume?
will changing insoles solve the arch pain (burning)?
thanks!
I'm not entirely sure how the pricing compares, and I know price can be a sensitive issue, but for the amount of skating it sounds you do, you would be best to invest in a higher end boot. Definitely finding the right fit will help, whether it's Graf or another brand, but I would avoid the lower end Graf boots, as my experience is they have had issues with drastic quality drop off below the top of the line. As it sounds like your foot is a bit deeper than ideal for the PeakSpeed line, you might want to look elsewhere.
The RibCor line has similar plush fit qualities and even though they're represented as CCM's low profile boot a lot of people experience them to be very deep. That might be worth a shot. True TF9s (about the same price as Graf 755s from a quick online search) might not be deep enough, but with their wrap and support, you might be able to fit into them comfortably. Their toe box is very anatomical, which sounds like it could be a start in relieving some of the comfort issues you've had in the past. I'm not 100% sure about the new True TF shells, but the fully custom ones were moldable on the arch as well as the quarters, so if your arch is an issue, you could potentially address that.
The most important point here, I think, is how unique everyone's feet are. Just because I have a historical penchant for Graf and now True skates, doesn't mean they're necessarily right for you, or anyone at random for that matter. Grafs used to be go to skates for refs, but other companies have learned a lot of the tricks that put Graf ahead in the 90's and Graf hasn't done the same quick enough in keeping up with market trends. As much as you use your skates and you probably make some income even on your time spent on the ice, I would definitely prioritize a boot that's the right fit and going to withstand the intense use you're subjecting them to.
One way to get around being so far from many shops could be to get your feet scanned, so you have an idea of how they compare to what fits are offered at retail currently. Then maybe order several skates that best fit that description and return the ones that don't work. It's best to start fresh, with an open mind, as it sounds like you're still hunting for your go to skate make and model. Don't limit yourself by what you think you might need, as you might easily miss a much better solution if you're too keen on something before giving the search a proper go.
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3 hours ago, Cavs019 said:@flip12 I don’t think you’re wrong at all and I’m probably chopping my words/explanation a bit. I think it’s mostly due to the fact that I tend to carry the puck in the mid-heel ish part of the blade (my first composite sticks were Modano/PM9s for the most part before I switched to Drury - wood Leetch/Lidstrom blades before all of that). At the way back of the heel the P28 is safe - mid heel you start to get into that weird twist/wedge part of the blade where unpredictable stuff starts to happen. At least for me that is. I also feel like the P28 wants you to carry the puck up by the toe and I just have a hard time unlearning the muscle memory of keeping the puck in the heel pocket for ~20 years. The 92 let’s me maintain the mechanics im comfortable with.
I’m sure if I gave it enough time I’d adapt but it’s too late in the game/im too washed up to try to teach myself new tricks.
That weird twist wedge is exactly what can cause issues with that pattern. I agree with the relearning mechanics challenge too. Before posting that short story above I had a sentence or two about that in the section in the split personalities of the blade, but I tried to keep it down, as long as it already was.
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17 minutes ago, getthekidthepuck said:Can you please elaborate on this?
Absolutely.
I've already spilled the beans on that somewhat, and just realized that way of putting it after reading @Cavs019 description of his experiences with it as well as recalling what others have said about it, but I'll try to clarify it here.
Background: The P28 is a subtle curve, without even going into the depths of its half dozen relatively common variations: E28 and BC28 are kinkier than Bauer, CCM, or Warrior's P28, while True's TC4 is more of a cousin to those curves than a sibling...then of course, there's MAX variants that were starting to come out before Covid19 and the popular Fisher Pro used by Kucherov, Karlsson, maybe even Ekman-Larsson, among many others. It was introduced with a nod at this subtlety, the infamous "dual-lie" marketing campaign, which ended up being more of a tease than a fair representation of the blade's character.
What is all this subtlety then? Dual-lie is definitely one aspect, and potentially the trickiest. But it's also dual-curve. It's not a toe curve, but a heel curve with a toe curve added to it, and it can play like that: it can be a toe curve with the puck at the far end of the blade, or it can be a heel curve if you play as though the "dual" portion of the blade didn't exist. That is, you use it as a short blade with a heel curve and leave the toe curve and its sharp rocker out of the equation.
Practically speaking... All this means is, for pick and fling wrist shots, push the puck out to the toe, grab and release in one direct motion. But note! Here the inverse of the key to using it as a heel curve is true: to use it as a toe curve, ignore the heel curve portion of the blade, or about 2/3 of the surface you've got for handling the puck.
When it came time for me to try this out with the Leino the first time I used it, it felt really odd. I didn't know at all how to shoot at this point, mind you. But I had started seeing tips on how to do it on YouTube, so I figured I'd give it a go. It just felt strange to have the puck dangling out there at the end of this crazy long blade, ready to launch. It also looked strange, seeing all that blade I was bypassing, setting the puck up out as far as it could go. But then I launched my first shot and it went exactly where I had hoped it would. I wasn't used to my aim being any good, so I got giddy.
But there's the rub-- It can be too good to be true, and in my experience, it was for a good while. I could shoot off the toe and skate with the puck, but I couldn't really manipulate the puck reliably to evade defenders in tight space or make consistent passes. After giving it some more time, I got the stick balanced better for my hands' feeling-expectations and discovered the gotcha about not releasing the puck from its natural heel-to-toe launch zone, but instead go heel-to-mid and suddenly I had the best of both worlds: the effortless saucers of a heel curve and the effortless lasers of a rockered toe curve. It took me an excess of 15-20 sessions with the stick to figure it out, but eventually it clicked. And then when I tried these techniques out on an E28, it was pretty much the same, just on a shorter blade at a slightly higher lie.
Bananas split ~ Unfortunately, it doesn't work for everyone, and the point of all of this gets at why I think that is: it's hard managing a split personality, and the P28 is a split personality blade. The split personality requires awareness at all times, or you risk flubbing your maneuver entirely. The classic way to do this is to feel the puck on your stick without looking at it. If you can feel where it is on your stick, you can get it to the zone it needs to be in regardless of whether the heel approach or the toe approach is preferred in a given situation. You can also look at the puck, but it limits your effectiveness and it can get you into trouble really fast. If your feeling for the puck isn't as detailed as where it is currently and where it needs to be for the next action, you can easily get frustrated with the duality coming back to bite you. It's not all fun and games. Unless you like managing split personalities 🙂
Post mortem. Not that the P28 is dead. By all means, it looks as though it is here to stay for the next while, it's just not the latest and greatest anymore. When it came out, it seemed to create such a sensation, in part, I think because it seemed too pro to be readily available to mortals. That was my impression at least. Then the feedback and reviews came rolling in, and they were quite mixed. Where there had been so much marketing about a blade pattern(!) that promised to make you shoot like Ovechkin, people seemed to be somewhat caught off guard by the blade not always behaving. Easton hadn't told the whole story, and I keep coming across frustrated people who seem to have half of the information, in no small part due to the (at most) half of the story Easton told when they unleashed the E28.
! When was the last time that happened? It seemed totally crazy at the time, but that campaign looks like it set the stage for the marketing of the other blades that have come and gone (P46, P30) or are just having their moment as the IT blades right now (All MAX Everything, P90T+/-).
That's all I have to say about that.
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39 minutes ago, Cavs019 said:Not disagreeing with any of the above, but...
It’s easier to go to a P92 imo. The P28 toe is an absolute beast and you really can’t play with the puck on the heel/shoot off the heel because it’s completely straight and closed relative to the P92 and P91.
Just my personal experience. After giving the P92 some time after using the P91 and P106 forever I’ve really come around to liking it - and can appreciate why it’s the most popular curve on the planet. It does everything well.
This hits it on the head, I think. Some people have this experience with the P28, and others find the heel curve of the P28 effective. In my opinion it comes down to whether the user can effectively use the blade as a two-in-one, with two different techniques or approaches depending on where the puck is on the blade. This is somewhat demanding of the user, as it requires solid feel and feedback or lots of looking at the blade, which doesn't really work. @Cavs019, I respect your views and often find myself in full agreement when I read your comments, however I must disagree with the description of the P28 being completely straight and closed relative to the P92 and P91, because to my observations it does curve right from the heel and the top of the blade doesn't curve in step with the bottom, creating considerable loft. It plays this way for me as well. I've encountered met many others who don't have the same experience using the blade though.
1 hour ago, getthekidthepuck said:this is great info thank you very much. How long do you think i should test for before I can make up my mind?
I would suggest just trying out a buddy's P28 stick during warmup and on a shift or two. Try that a few sessions and see if it can work for you. Incidentally, I didn't discover the flutter effect personally using a P28, but a Leino Pro, which is essentially a Kovalev Pro x P28. It has both a very similar toe curve and that shaved heel portion where it's flatter like on the P28 or P91. I just went to a corner with 4-5 pucks and tried saucering them lightly, trying to get as much feedback from the puck on the stick as possible, and then it dawned on my why my saucer passes sucked: I was launching them just as the puck started to fall off the blade because of the aggressive toe rocker. I tried feeling for releasing a little sooner and suddenly I could lob tight slow saucers at head height. I would try that routine with a borrowed P28 to see if the technique settles in or not. I'd hold off on buying until doing that "test" a couple of times.
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1 hour ago, getthekidthepuck said:can you sauce the puck with p28 like a p91?
P28 is a modified P91, so yes, saucer passes are quite easy with one caveat: because the toe got shaved to make the pocket feel tighter on pick and fling wrist shots, you have to release before you reach that last 3rd of the blade. A lot of people naturally want to release the puck around that spot, where the "dual-lie" toe rocker starts which causes the puck to flutter. Otherwise, it's the same blade face and a similar heel curve on the P28. It just warps a bit into a mid curve until the toe curve starts due to the gravitational warping created by adding a toe curve to a P91.
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1 hour ago, 2nhockey said:Great help!
so then the question is on radius. My hollow is currently set to 5/8. What will I gain/lose by going to an 11’ radius? I know what will happen if I change the hollow but don’t know what happens if I change the radius.
I like the idea of two different pairs of skates. I don’t know how switching intraday from a Supreme to a 755 or PK will go but I’m open to trying.
If you really like a 9' profile, 11' might feel weird. I had Vapor 8s before my first Grafs (705s) and there's no way I would go back to the Vapor boots after going Graf, but it took me a while to get used to the 11' profile. One day when I did though, it was like I had found a cheat code for skating. It just worked with my mechanics in a way I didn't know possible. A lot of people (probably used to 9' and 10') think it feels flat and sunk in, like you're skating on rails. I feel like the 11' is still nicely curved. I feel more in control on turns and accelerations, where a 9' or 10' feels like I'm a duck paddling my way through water and I feel like an penguin on an 11'. You'll probably love it or hate it.
Because more blade is in contact with the ice, you'll dig in more if you stay with the same hollow as you use on a 9'.
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Edit: pointless post, found my answer 2 seconds later.
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6 hours ago, mojo122 said:Not seeing the "x-ribs" we've seen in previous models.
Maybe they’ll make them look like they’re still there in the production version:
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2 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Still looks like a two-piece boot.
Yes. And not even the "unibody" sole as on the UltraSonic.
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I came across this just now while I was browsing Scott Van Horne's patents, and it articulates my thoughts better than I would have:
"The sport of in-line and ice speed skating, hockey, figure skating, cross-country skiing, and the like are all very competitive sports, at the elite level. For optimal performance these sports demand comfort and stability. A lack of comfort can result in decreased training time. A lack of stability can result in: a loss of power through excessive joint bending and increased fatigue through excessive lower leg muscle stimulation, these factors will cause a decrease in performance."
From: High performance custom moldable footwear
I like the idea of laces free skating for training but I am skeptical about its broad applicability for competition.
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On 1/15/2021 at 1:38 PM, flip12 said:Dry Ice is wearing what looks like that updated graphics package on the more traditional build, <100K, whatever the go with numerically:
Wups. Those are just 80Ks. Sorry, baby brain killed my memory.
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Grafs tend to fit a bit smaller so you may be 10.25-10.5 in those. Definitely vote for a place with free returns so you can get the approximate size range and keep the right pair.
Their boots and holders have a bit more pitch to them compared to most other stock offerings. I think it’s equivalent to +2, iirc? Their stock radius used to be 11’, which I personally love. I find it to be a great match for their forward pitch. Recently they’ve made some moves to make their skates less aggressive in both boot height and radius, so the boots are roughly the same height as Vapors and the stock radius is 10’.
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8 hours ago, the_game said:Best looking skate i’ve seen in a loooooong time. Also looks like a one piece boot, Bauer’s answer to True?
It's not one piece, if you look at it in full res.
We've been through that song and dance at length just last year, with the speculations surrounding the mystery Kucherov skate, which ended up being the used McDonald's napkin UltraSonic.
Bauer doesn't have to answer True, as they own the IP to the Mako, which is a first cousin of SVH's boots. It appears they simply don't have an interest in pursuing that avenue.
Just as with the undressed UltraSonics, this new boot looks so much better than anything Bauer has squeezed out of its pipeline since the one95 that I wonder what is wrong with the world. I love that they went with the [PROTOTYPE] branding, just as STX did with their first sticks.
That's the best looking stick since the Busch Balance series.
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Do you have video of your son skating? He sounds a bit like me: I really struggled getting MLX to work for me. Right away I could tell they had extra power and better cornering than I had ever experienced (even more notably on FBV) but I couldn’t get over this disconnected feeling, especially on starts.
What ended up working best with the stock tongue was skipping the top two eyelets. Considering they’re already along the lowest cut boots on the market, I was astonished that I was able to feel stable skating like that in them.
I kept experimenting, rebaking, swapping tongues. I like them better with softer tongues, as I get better coupling between my feet and the skates. With the softest and slimmest tongue I have, and rebaked with the top three eyelets flared out, I can skate pretty comfortably on them with one the top eyelet unlaced; still get changing from the cuff like that.
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2 hours ago, smcgreg said:Probably the last follow up on this for a while. The details that got us to this point are in previous posts above. In general though, decent 15 yr old moving from Makos to TF9s. The last post was referencing fixes we made to the stock profile to address his complaints after the first couple skates. After that last post we made another change to the profile and points are listed below.
1. Additional (-1) pitch. After the 2nd profile above, he still felt the pitch was too aggressive, so, we took it back another notch. This made it 10ft (- 2) pitch. After measuring it compared to his makos, it still appeared to be effectively 1/4" higher back to front compared to Makos that were -2 from stock.
After this, he felt it was better, but still felt like it was "pushing him forward too much". We gave it a week to see how he adapted (skating everyday) and if no improvement would profile and take it back another (-2) to a (-4) total. This seemed very extreme to me, but given the previous changes and the existing difference between the old makos, I thought this is how we would get to where we needed to be.
After 7 skates on the second profile, comments continued to be... 1) much faster in straight line open ice skating than the Makos 2) he uses a lot less energy to go faster. Consistently less tired than norma. 3) tight turns better than the Makos but.... 4) agility and footwork bad. Skates felt "heavy", "like tanks", "clumsy". So, 1)-3) are big positives, but 4) is a killer.
One observation that he was getting a bit of a hot spot where the top of the cuff was rubbing above his ankle made me think of something else. He commented that the TF9s were higher than the Makos. He laced his Makos one eyelet from top, and had the TF9s one eyelet from the top. So, the last skate before we got them profiled, I asked him to drop the lacing to the 2nd eyelet down. That would make it closer to the actual Mako lacing pattern since the TF9s came up higher. My thought was, it was more the lack of fore-aft flexibility was the issue. He came off the ice and we were going to take them to my skate guy to get the profiled, he said, "don't bother, they're perfect"...... LOL..... So, one day away from going to a (-4) profile and how knows where that would have sent us.
Interestingly, as I say, the (-2) is still more aggressive than the Makos we had at (-2). This is a bit surprising, since I assumed they would have a similar ptich. This is a demonstration of a couple of things 1) how important ankle flexibility and range of motion is in the anterior/posterior plane for all aspects of skating, including footwork and agility and 2) how such a minor thing like 1 eyelet lacing pattern can make an enormous difference. Not that this would be the case with everybody, but there are so many friggin variables when dialing in skates .... its' crazy.
I'm still a bit surprised about the speed difference between the Makos and TF9s. I'm going to attribute it to the Makos being on their last leg. He always has rivet issues with them and I think the bottom outsole is just "worn out". There' s a lot of give around the holder and outsole and that creates loss of power transfer. Free speed though.... we'll take it!
We're going to do some testing fo the lacing patterns now to quantify the differences as far as top end speed and agility since it will be a very easy change to make and he "perceives" a huge difference. I'm curious to how much of a difference it makes quantitatively.
That's it for now. Hope this helps others trying to nail these skates down. No doubt they are comfy. But that stock pitch is pretty aggressive for somebody who's got an ingrained skating pattern .
How much higher are the TF9s compared to his Makos?
A softer tongue could help with the clunkiness/range of motion. The True tongues are decently stiff and with stiff boots that combo can kill a skate’s feel, especially for skaters that embrace range of motion in their stride.
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1 hour ago, hockeydad3 said:My target is to get a better ankle-/heellock without the need of tying the laces close to my painlimit. I have very little room between tying my laces too loose or too tight. Maybe I should give the skates more time to break in and do another bake.
I know. Stuffing the toe box might decouple your lacing pressure from your toes cramming in the toe box.
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9 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:The TF7's are my best fitting skates ever. I baked them with the shrink wrap method. My feet have a high instep, flat arch, normal width, normal forefoot and need a good wrap around the ankles. I'm getting a strong pain in my footsole if I ty my laces too tight, but I need a good lock to prevent my toes touching the cap too much. So I'm thinking about an optimization of the wrap.
Have you tried adding some padding above your toes in the box? True sticks with the Velcro attachment of the tongue to facilitate shifting the tongue up or down over the toes, similar to adding POWERFOOT inserts. This can relieve enough toecap pressure if you need something to help bide the time until the foams compress a bit, which could also help in time. Eventually you might not need anything to take the edge off, depending on how much the foams compress.
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35 minutes ago, Cavs019 said:Whatever the label is it’s lower than the P92/P29 and P30. The whole 5 vs 5.5 vs 6 concept doesn’t work anymore since brands can’t translate that number into anything that makes sense in the real world both across their own patterns and to other manufacturers.
Definitely. To make matters worse, P28’s higher than the P46, but CCM listed P46 as a 5.5 and P28 a 5.
I’m finding I’m not nearly as sensitive to shaft length as I thought. What matters for me is balance and adjusting shooting mechanics (mostly initial wrist position?) to suit the blade’s geometry.
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P28’s mislabeled as a lie 5. It goes back to Easton screwing it up on launch. It’s actually a 5.5. The rocker on the toe is my guess. If you don’t roll your wrists much when shooting, the puck can flutter off the typical release point just before reaching the toe of the blade.
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Dry Ice is wearing what looks like that updated graphics package on the more traditional build, <100K, whatever the go with numerically:
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1 hour ago, SkateWorksPNW said:This is the best photo I could find.... and it still doesn't show much.
Is it supposed to be the monocoque RibCor? It looks like he's got 80Ks on there.
Edit: Just checked the image @decoy posted and they definitely feature a different, unreleased graphics package. They don't look like the ones above.
extra lower back, kidney protection ?
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Do you still have any of your son's previous shoulder pads that he may have grown out of? Or just a pair that you're not using anymore? You could remove the chest or back pieces and stitch them to his current pads. Failing that, check for used pairs in decent shape. With a little handiwork or service from a skate shop (or cobbler if that's not an option) you could have extra protection at little cost.