"Evil manufacturers"?

[DarkStar50 679]

One of our members thinks of BNH as "Evil Nike/Bauer." I am interested in why he considers BNH as "evil." I also want to hear from anyone who considers BNH "evil" as well as the "Terrible Hockey Company" or "Awful Easton" or any other vendor that you have a LEGITIMATE reason to dislike. These are the companies who fuel your passion for hockey. What has you so pissed off that you feel the need to trash the companies that provide you with the latest technology and push the envelope so you can have even more amazing hockey product?

Peter

[biff44 0]

Well, I do not know how evil, but they sure can be frustrating! Lets say you love a certain type of pad, and after using it for 9 months the plastic cracks and you go back to buy a replacement of the exact same pad--9 times out of 10 it is no longer available. It has be replaced by an "improved" model, that looks and feels entirely different and often is more cheaply made! Why the heck do they keep changing the designs??? Most players just want to buy the same thing they know and love!

[Vapor#42 0]

Well, I do not know how evil, but they sure can be frustrating! Lets say you love a certain type of pad, and after using it for 9 months the plastic cracks and you go back to buy a replacement of the exact same pad--9 times out of 10 it is no longer available. It has be replaced by an "improved" model, that looks and feels entirely different and often is more cheaply made! Why the heck do they keep changing the designs??? Most players just want to buy the same thing they know and love!

Innovation and modern day technological advancements Biff.. Got to keep up with todays market - Hate it or love it.. :)

[jimmy 194]

Well, I do not know how evil, but they sure can be frustrating! Lets say you love a certain type of pad, and after using it for 9 months the plastic cracks and you go back to buy a replacement of the exact same pad--9 times out of 10 it is no longer available. It has be replaced by an "improved" model, that looks and feels entirely different and often is more cheaply made! Why the heck do they keep changing the designs??? Most players just want to buy the same thing they know and love!

Kind of your feelings but from a retailer perspective. In a way, screwing the folks that sell your product is an evil business practice. What's even more frustrating for us retailers is how they discontinue models after only being on the market for 1 year. We loose our shorts, and the only ones who make out are the internet dealers, who buy alll their excess inventory for way below cost. The LHS's are stuck with worthless merchandise.

.

[asdfa 0]

in my opinion, that's just the way the world works. if you look at BNH or any of the other companies, they're making smart business decisions in terms of constantly coming up with new products, because that is what the majority of the market wants. for example, i doubt the majority of the hockey market right now is saying "hey, quite making new things, i still want some bauer 5000 shoulder pads back" rather than "i liked the v12 shoulder pads, but how about making them a little better" of course there are exceptions, but it's not realistic for a companie as large as BNH to consider the small picture of LHS's, all they care about it is selling their products to retailers, whatever happens after is not important. this is just my view, i'm sure someone who knows more about this could probably call me out on something :P

[Jason Harris 31]

I've always felt Salming is just too darn wordy. Oy vey!

[jimmy 194]

in my opinion, that's just the way the world works. if you look at BNH or any of the other companies, they're making smart business decisions in terms of constantly coming up with new products, because that is what the majority of the market wants. for example, i doubt the majority of the hockey market right now is saying "hey, quite making new things, i still want some bauer 5000 shoulder pads back" rather than "i liked the v12 shoulder pads, but how about making them a little better" of course there are exceptions, but it's not realistic for a companie as large as BNH to consider the small picture of LHS's, all they care about it is selling their products to retailers, whatever happens after is not important. this is just my view, i'm sure someone who knows more about this could probably call me out on something :P

Changing the color of a skate and renumbering it DOES not mean technical improvements. It's just a marketing scam. They know that customers will believe the new Super skate XXXX has to be better than the old XXX.

This is exactly why I only stock one of each Bauer item, then reorder when it sells. I get tired of having lots in stock when discontinued.

[JR Boucicaut 3760]

The solution is simple - order smartly, know your product inside and out and be able to relay that to the customer. It is harder obviously because of the newer technology, but it can be done. Don't fall for the gimmicks - I've seen stores who have bought a bunch of something that I KNEW wouldn't work and now they're stuck with it. Basically, it all boils down to how good of a buyer you are and how much you know about the product.

[jjtt99 0]

Being part of web communities like Mod certainly helps. Now when I go to any store that sells hockey gear I'm way more confident that I'll know the stories about most of the products they carry.

Yayyy ModSquad! :)

JJ

[modernice 0]

BNH is evil because when I was in Grade 6 at Lincoln Elementary in Winnipeg, Manitscoldout, this little scenario unfolded:

I was sitting at the very back of the class(of course) and I ducked my head underneath my desk, and lo and behold, what did I see?

28 students- 24 pairs of Nike All-court sneakers. Something about that scenario speaks evil to me and I've never worn a Nike swoosh ever, ever, ever!

I also have never seens Star Wars, but that's a different story.

disclaimer:

I am skating on Bauer Vapor XX's and now realize my shame...time for some new Salmings or maybe the Kor's...

[modernice 0]

The solution is simple - order smartly, know your product inside and out and be able to relay that to the customer.  It is harder obviously because of the newer technology, but it can be done.    Don't fall for the gimmicks - I've seen stores who have bought a bunch of something that I KNEW wouldn't work and now they're stuck with it.  Basically, it all boils down to how good of a buyer you are and how much you know about the product.

JR

If every store owner has a built-in trend radar detector, that would be great.

B)

But good ol' evil BNH is sending their minnions(reps) to the front lines to sell and sway and convince and trick the dealer/buyers into buying the next great thing...

even tho' they must be the ones who know that product X is doomed from the start? do the reps also "know" that a certain product won't sell and then push it anyway? do the reps know and sell, sell, sell with that knowledge or or they just not that smart too?

Well, I sorta agree with you about some dealers make poor buying decisions, but i ALSO think that BNH and its peeps are evil to the Kor.

just a couple of thought about evilness...

cheers,

gb

[4ZManny 0]

Speaking of Evil....

I'm in the market for a new "Bucket" but do not want to succumb to the corporate slobs who promote greed and destruction (heavy I know). Does anyone other than the Big Three make a nice, comfortable helmet that doesn't look like it belongs to a Jedi. I do profess, however, I would like it to be able to channel the force though!!! ;)

[jjtt99 0]

Speaking of Evil....

I'm in the market for a new "Bucket" but do not want to succumb to the corporate slobs who promote greed and destruction (heavy I know).  Does anyone other than the Big Three make a nice, comfortable helmet that doesn't look like it belongs to a Jedi.  I do profess, however, I would like it to be able to channel the force though!!! ;)

Itech has great buckets (I use an HC 95 myself)...and they are not part of any global empires!

JJ

Edit: Link added

http://www.itech.com/itechframe.asp?page=s...at=&surl=&site=

[JR Boucicaut 3760]

Greg - good points, but it's up to the buyer to see through it. You know the reps I have dealt with in FL. If the buyer is allowing themselved to be duped, that's their prerogative and their fault. Then again, not everyone is as educated about product...

For the smaller stores - I feel your pain, especially since you guys are small businesses - the stores that I have worked for have been big stores and can afford to take a hit. However, on an equipment junkie standpoint, I like the fact that companies are striving to do better and push the envelope. It does get frustrating when you have skate X on the wall from last year and skate Y is the same one yet aestetically spruced-up. The customer is going to go for that one even though skate X is the same and even cheaper because you have to get rid of them. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is being done out of malicious intent though.

[chippa13 1844]

A lot of these complaints are the price of having so many players in the industry. Back when it was just Bauer and CCM, skate lines stayed the same for years. But now you've got Easton and Mission making major inroads and suddenly the competition heats up. Graf always had their little niche but never really threatened the bigs. I think when Nike got into the game is when things really changed.

[JR Boucicaut 3760]

Agreed, but in a way, competition is good. It doesn't allow companies to rest on their laurels...look at Graf - they had to add composite to their skates just because everyone else was.

[modernice 0]

one thing I will say about BNH. Their CEO Chris Zimmerman "seems" like an amazing guy!

I think it was at the Toronto Show where I first heard him speak about where the company is going.

He spoke for 50 mins or so, and did not hesitate, or pause or stutter or fumble on any one word, thought or sentence the whole presenation through. It was an amazingly pefect delivery. ...hmmm. which leads me to question...maybe he is an alien of some far off "evil" empire.

The BNH Evil conspiracy continues...

[chippa13 1844]

I've always believed that competition was the best thing for the gear industry. It forces companies to work a little harder at innovating and improving. With the options out there now, companies have to respond quicker to the marketplace.

The only real downside is that Nike showed the other companies what consumers really would pay for top of the line skates.

[chippa13 1844]

one thing I will say about BNH. Their CEO Chris Zimmerman "seems" like an amazing guy!

I think it was at the Toronto Show where I first heard him speak about where the company is going.

He spoke for 50 mins or so, and did not hesitate, or pause or stutter or fumble on any one word, thought or sentence the whole presenation through. It was an amazingly pefect delivery. ...hmmm. which leads me to question...maybe he is an alien of some far off "evil" empire.

The BNH Evil conspiracy continues...

Actually, there are very few CEO's who can't speak well. They are the face of the company and need to be able to instill confidence.

[Chadd 916]

in my opinion, that's just the way the world works.  if you look at BNH or any of the other companies, they're making smart business decisions in terms of constantly coming up with new products, because that is what the majority of the market wants.  for example, i doubt the majority of the hockey market right now is saying "hey, quite making new things, i still want some bauer 5000 shoulder pads back" rather than "i liked the v12 shoulder pads, but how about making them a little better" of course there are exceptions, but it's not realistic for a companie as large as BNH to consider the small picture of LHS's, all they care about it is selling their products to retailers, whatever happens after is not important.  this is just my view, i'm sure someone who knows more about this could probably call me out on something :P

Changing the color of a skate and renumbering it DOES not mean technical improvements. It's just a marketing scam. They know that customers will believe the new Super skate XXXX has to be better than the old XXX.

This is exactly why I only stock one of each Bauer item, then reorder when it sells. I get tired of having lots in stock when discontinued.

I guess my biggest gripe is that I would like to see a little less spend on marketing and a little more on quality control. I see kids come in all the time with skates that should be blems or seconds, if not totally rejected by any decent QC person. I pull aside mom and dad and explain the problem with the skate but the other dealer (or manufacturer) refuses to do anything about it and the parents don't have the cash to spend on skates. Now junior is stuck with skates that prevent him from being a good skater.

The other, related, problem is the effect of marketing. Kids are walking in demanding a particular brand or model, often despite having a foot that does not fit that skate. I should probably be more disappointed by the customer who acts like a lemming, as the company is just doing everything they can to sell product.

[DarkStar50 679]

So far there are a lot of interesting comments. Unfortunately, the member who came up with "Evil Nike/Bauer" has not posted his thoughts. "Come out, come out, where ever you are."

I agree with JR that you have to be a smart and disciplined buyer. Product lines will change but they are actually longer than in the past. A lot of lines have a 2-3 year life while in the past, it was 1-2 years. By the past, I am thinking of 80's into early 90's. Also, JR's point about Graf finally doing something with composite was long over due for Graf. Graf was almost too late figuring out that the loyal Graf guy really wanted these lightweight composite materials in his skate. When vendors take too long to produce this type of product for their loyal customers, they have no one to blame but themselves for losing in the marketplace. Another example is Tackla pants. They also finally made some adjustments to the pant line but it might be to little to late.

CCM is another vendor that has customer loyalty to their skate line. I have sold some awful CCM Tacks skates a long time ago that had no business carrying the proud Tack name but the CCM guys who always bought Tacks didn't care. The skates were Tacks so that is all that mattered. And then , yes, Nike came along to push the envelope. We know their first attempts were weak but they did wake up a product line to possibilities. Let them stand on that ground for making skates better for everyone by making everyone make better skates!!

As for marketing hockey product these days, it is a more professional approach than the old "Star player endorsement"(CCM Bobby Hull Approved!). All the vendors have to bring the heavy hitters of marketing into the planning and push of product. If the marketing drives players to our shops, lets be grateful. Once the player is there it is still up to us to try to get the right pad with the right player. As long as we tell Johnny House League he really doesn't need V XXX skates, we are educating him and his parents about the product. And that is all I want when I buy a product in retail. Information and education will always help the customer decide.

I don't think any of the vendors are "evil." Dealers need the vendors and vendors need the dealers. The dealer just has to decide which vendor is really his best choice for product AND business. And, no doubt about it, some vendors are much better than others.

[jrhky36 1]

bnh did change the color of skates. gone are the classic look of all black with one or two logos. now you have colors that don't (imo) don't belong on skates(white) and logos all over the place. credit to graf for keeping the old school look.

[Chadd 916]

CCM is another vendor that has customer loyalty to their skate line. I have sold some awful CCM Tacks skates a long time ago that had no business carrying the proud Tack name but the CCM guys who always bought Tacks didn't care. The skates were Tacks so that is all that mattered. And then , yes, Nike came along to push the envelope. We know their first attempts were weak but they did wake up a product line to possibilities. Let them stand on that ground for making skates better for everyone by making everyone make better skates!!

As for marketing hockey product these days, it is a more professional approach than the old "Star player endorsement"(CCM Bobby Hull Approved!). All the vendors have to bring the heavy hitters of marketing into the planning and push of product. If the marketing drives players to our shops, lets be grateful. Once the player is there it is still up to us to try to get the right pad with the right player. As long as we tell Johnny House League he really doesn't need V XXX skates, we are educating him and his parents about the product. And that is all I want when I buy a product in retail. Information and education will always help the customer decide.

I don't think any of the vendors are "evil." Dealers need the vendors and vendors need the dealers. The dealer just has to decide which vendor is really his best choice for product AND business. And, no doubt about it, some vendors are much better than others.

I used to love my old tacks skates but the silver and purple or copper tacks over the last few years were not good at all. It's good to see they are back on the right track with the new skates. It looks like there was much better attention to detail in the newer models.

As for the marketing, it drives business but it seems that it drives much of it online where customers can get instant gratification but not the proper fit. Many customers get all the information they want from the ads or the fact pro "x" is wearing whatever gear.

[jimmy 194]

I guess my biggest gripe is that I would like to see a little less spend on marketing and a little more on quality control. I see kids come in all the time with skates that should be blems or seconds, if not totally rejected by any decent QC person.

Chadd, how do I post a pic? You'd like this one I took yesterday of a XXX. Classic example of poor QC

[JGraz15 53]

bnh did change the color of skates. gone are the classic look of all black with one or two logos. now you have colors that don't (imo) don't belong on skates(white) and logos all over the place. credit to graf for keeping the old school look.

Ever see a Bauer 8090? There isn't a more classic styled skate out there.