MLB Discussion

[Jason Harris 31]

I probably shouldn't have used the term "from their first at bat," but if we refer to when it is publicly assumed that they started, Bonds was a first ballot HOFer and A-Rod was on pace to be.

If Bonds had retired prior to the 2001 season, he would have been elected in 2005. Or if he had just played the next 2-4 seasons with the typical nagging injuries of a late 30-year-old man, he probably would have been considered among the Top 5 players of all-time.

For A-Rod, my memory is he was the fastest to 100 homers and 200 homers, although it's possible that 300 was during his tainted season -- I'd have to look it up. Short of catastrophic injury, I'd also qualify that as destined for Cooperstown.

So, again, what did they have to gain?

[mack 44]

Nothing skill-wise. He could have been fine and hit just the same as he did, but he didn't want to do it in Big Papi/Manny/Ryan Howard shape.

[cptjeff 0]

I probably shouldn't have used the term "from their first at bat," but if we refer to when it is publicly assumed that they started, Bonds was a first ballot HOFer and A-Rod was on pace to be.

If Bonds had retired prior to the 2001 season, he would have been elected in 2005. Or if he had just played the next 2-4 seasons with the typical nagging injuries of a late 30-year-old man, he probably would have been considered among the Top 5 players of all-time.

For A-Rod, my memory is he was the fastest to 100 homers and 200 homers, although it's possible that 300 was during his tainted season -- I'd have to look it up. Short of catastrophic injury, I'd also qualify that as destined for Cooperstown.

So, again, what did they have to gain?

How do you know they weren't on Steroids from day 1? Who's to say they didn't start in the minors?

Honestly, with no testing, there was really no reason why you shouldn't. If you're okay, it makes you good, if you're good, it makes you better. And there's no punishment as it's not technically against the rules.

When the difference between being good and great is 20 million a year, who's not going to take them?

[Drewhunz 3]

If Tony Gwynn's samples get dug up and tested positive for anything, I'll lose faith in humanity.

[JR Boucicaut 3789]

I'm sure Gwynn would test positive. For gravy.

If Tony Gwynn's samples get dug up and tested positive for anything, I'll lose faith in humanity.

[TBLfan 25]

If Tony Gwynn's samples get dug up and tested positive for anything, I'll lose faith in humanity.

George Brett was a juicer. :P

[Drewhunz 3]

Well he was and is a prick so the possibility is there, but Gwynn is my favorite player ever. Class on and off the field.

[Jason Harris 31]

Honestly, with no testing, there was really no reason why you shouldn't. If you're okay, it makes you good, if you're good, it makes you better. And there's no punishment as it's not technically against the rules.

When the difference between being good and great is 20 million a year, who's not going to take them?

a ) Someone who feels it's cheating, just as some players feel it's wrong to be unfaithful to their families.

b ) Someone whose competitive nature wants to prove they can play as well as those who indulged.

c ) Someone who has concerns about long term health risks.

That said, there obviously were a lot of players who didn't study the alphabet.

[Neal 41]

Nothing skill-wise. He could have been fine and hit just the same as he did, but he didn't want to do it in Big Papi/Manny/Ryan Howard shape.

You honestly think he took them just so he could look better? If he did, that is sad.

[mrusse01 0]

You have to consider the mentality of guys like Bonds and A-Rod, these guys are the best of the best.

Barry Bonds sees the entire country transfixed by McGwire and Sosa (two players who I'm sure he considered inferior) during their home run chase, and he's got to be thinking to himself 'aw hell, I'm better than those two idiots...they're just on steroids'. So Bonds starts taking them, boom, he's the best power hitter of all-time, he can sit back and think to himself, 'see, I am better than McGwire or Sosa'.

Guys like Bonds and A-Rod are two of the most talented players in history, it must have been very frustrating for them to see lesser players (even if that was just their own perception) getting similar stats, similar contracts, similar recognition.

[chippa13 1844]

Please, Bonds was just mad because he was known as the biggest asshole in professional baseball from the day he first stepped on the MLB stage. He would have been hard pressed to make the Hall even without BALCO. Writers hated him worse than Rice and Rice had to wait until his last ballot.

[Chadd 916]

Tell me again that Steroids don't make you a better player.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/mlb_awards_c...ent=mvp_history

[kosydar 0]

I'm just glad that people are asking Obama to weigh in on the issue already. Seriously, I know it was cute for him to talk about the BCS, but now it seems like people really think the federal government should control this. I think they have enough shit to deal with as it is, let baseball handle itself.

[mack 44]

Better than that was FoxNews starting their recap with what he said about it. Their window-licking watchers need something like that to ease the pain of having news come at them.

[Jason Harris 31]

He would have been hard pressed to make the Hall even without BALCO. Writers hated him worse than Rice and Rice had to wait until his last ballot.

For 12 years, Rice's numbers were dominant, but he had a precipitous fall at the end of his career, causing his numbers to become borderline. That combined with his reputation for surliness to keep him out of the HOF until this year.

Conversely, Bonds was on pace to pass the Holy Grail of HOF numbers even before it is assumed he began using PED's. He was on pace to become the only player with 500 homers and 500 steals. Nobody was remotely close to that combination of speed and power. Throw in the Gold Gloves and MVP's and even his personality wasn't going to keep him out on the first ballot.

Again, we're going off the assumption of when he started, but that guy didn't need to use PED's to secure his legacy. Maybe mrusse01 is correct. Maybe his ego wouldn't allow him to see less rounded players steal the spotlight. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is there's a high likelihood that he threw away a plaque in Cooperstown.

[mrusse01 0]

Tell me again that Steroids don't make you a better player.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/awards/mlb_awards_c...ent=mvp_history

I don't think there's much debate about anabolic steroids making you a better player, but there is considerable debate about whether HGH (human growth hormone) has any benefits to an athlete.

It's interesting to think about what the Hall of Fame is going to look like in 15 years. Look at these records and the players that will almost certainly hold them at that time:

Games Played - Pete Rose

Hits- Pete Rose

HR - A-Rod

RBI- A-Rod

Runs- A-Rod

HR in a season - Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, McGwire, Sosa, Sosa

Throw in arguably the best right handed pitcher of all-time (Clemens)...and none of those guys are likely to be in the Hall of Fame. It's crazy.

If anybody watched Gammons interview with Rodriguez, I thought it was fascinating. A-Rod is a guy that clearly lives in another world, he seemed almost a little bit insane to me at some points in the interview, just flat out not acknowledging questions, shifting blame instantly, looking for scapegoats and excuses. He could barely blurt out the word 'steroid'. Unreal. He seems like a very very strange guy.

[s Greens 0]

i liked it when he said "he realized he was being selfish back in 2003". Coming from the guy who had the whole contract debacle back in 2007 I guess he forgot

[chippa13 1844]

He would have been hard pressed to make the Hall even without BALCO. Writers hated him worse than Rice and Rice had to wait until his last ballot.

For 12 years, Rice's numbers were dominant, but he had a precipitous fall at the end of his career, causing his numbers to become borderline. That combined with his reputation for surliness to keep him out of the HOF until this year.

Conversely, Bonds was on pace to pass the Holy Grail of HOF numbers even before it is assumed he began using PED's. He was on pace to become the only player with 500 homers and 500 steals. Nobody was remotely close to that combination of speed and power. Throw in the Gold Gloves and MVP's and even his personality wasn't going to keep him out on the first ballot.

Again, we're going off the assumption of when he started, but that guy didn't need to use PED's to secure his legacy. Maybe mrusse01 is correct. Maybe his ego wouldn't allow him to see less rounded players steal the spotlight. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is there's a high likelihood that he threw away a plaque in Cooperstown.

You are underestimating the ego of the American sportswriter.

[mrusse01 0]

Bonds was a no-doubter prior to his steroids allegation...he's a couple levels above a Jim Rice type player. Sportswriters hated Ricky Henderson too, hell everybody hated him, but he's still in there.

[Drewhunz 3]

RIP baseball

[willsnipe 0]

During that interview i thought A-rod looked great.

Signed, Jack "O" Lanterns.

Stole it from Rome, but still funny.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Here's an idea: Forget jail...forgot Congress, forget all that other stuff. They have the years on record that these players were juiced. At the very least...they should give back the money they were paid in the years they were cheating.

Maybe give it to some of the poor bastard athletes who played in the eras where the game was honest and they were treated like cattle and now can barely afford to live because owners were ruthless and there was no CBA or Union to lookout for them.

[chippa13 1844]

Give the money back to who? The MLB has the strongest union on the planet and have rather well cared for retirees.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Give the money back to who? The MLB has the strongest union on the planet and have rather well cared for retirees.

I don't care...charity...back to the owner...but, it's obvious he didn't 'earn' his 25 mil those years...he cheated to get it....why should he be able to keep it.

And, I didn't know MLB had a good history with it's players....I assumed since hockey/football was pretty awful through the early years that all sports was bad.

[chippa13 1844]

The early years, sure, baseball was just as bad as all the others but I believe they were the first to get free agency some 40 years ago.