Supplemental Discpline 2013-14

[Trooper 8]

This in no way absolves Thornton, but maybe a better way to ask this is why does one time of losing control outweigh hundreds of times of not losing control, to the extent that people need to realize that "loss of control is also part of who he is?"

Why? My thoughts:

1) the league has an image problem. The only clever age I've seen in the major media lately has been about these incidents, not the games or the sport, Thorton is not bigger than the league.

2) the hit on Schenn was about a couple inches or a few degrees off from possibly being the most serious injury we've seen so far, this asinine rationale for light suspensions is going to cause them a major financial problem, no player is bigger than that

3) fighting and the joke of a concept of "the code" is not preventing this from happening

4) this has gone on for too long, it's not like these incidents just showed up this year

[chippa13 1844]

Why does everyone forget or ignore that the knee to the head and another Bruin teammate down on the ice immediately preceeded Thornton's actions? That doesn't remove the wrongness of his actions but it does provide context.

[Trooper 8]

Why does everyone forget or ignore that the knee to the head and another Bruin teammate down on the ice immediately preceeded Thornton's actions? That doesn't remove the wrongness of his actions but it does provide context.

Who is forgetting it? The line of discussion was about how clean Thorton has been and how this should play into everything. It is a gradeschool mentality to point the finger at others to explain your own behavior.

[chippa13 1844]

People are wanting to paint Thornton with broad strokes in spite of his clean history and the context is necessary to help explain why perhaps this situation was different from any other situation he found himself in where he didn't do the wrong thing. It doesn't give him a free pass for what he did and while I think his 15 games is a little on the high end given Neal's 5 games, I can live with it. He deserves to sit for what he did but I also believe that given his record and how I've seen him go about his business, this will be his last foray into this kind of wrongful act.

[wrangler 157]

I think that's an unfair standard to be given to any of us. Everybody has had an embarrassing or shameful event they were involved in. Would you really want that to be known as "a part of who we are" or as an incident we have to rise above?

This in no way absolves Thornton, but maybe a better way to ask this is why does one time of losing control outweigh hundreds of times of not losing control, to the extent that people need to realize that "loss of control is also part of who he is?"

It doesn't matter if we're talking about Thornton or someone else, even myself. If an act is in someone's history, he can't deny that he did it. If it's long ago, he can point to his subsequent track record to offset it. If it was yesterday, he has to go back to working on his track record. I expect people to give it more weight if it's recent, but also consider that he did it only one time. I certainly don't feel that he has the right to expect people to ignore something he did yesterday. On the other hand, I feel the same way about good things he has done. The more recent and more often they are, the more weight they deserve.

I made it clear that I did not "outweigh" anything with Thornton; people will do their own weighing. I'm not going to tell anyone that it deserves a certain amount of weight, and I don't accept people telling others that they have to give it no weight. Go ahead and tell me that your opinion is different (not directed specifically to you, Jason); don't tell me that mine has to be the same as yours.

I'm just pointing out that it happened, and we can't pretend it didn't. Because it happened, we see that it's part of the package. The logical alternative would seem to be that it doesn't matter what he did.

Why does everyone forget or ignore that the knee to the head and another Bruin teammate down on the ice immediately preceeded Thornton's actions? That doesn't remove the wrongness of his actions but it does provide context.

Not "everyone". I commented on that at the same time I commented on Thornton. I think that the NHL did not take that knee seriously, and the punishment was so light as to make them look stupid. I don't know that they could have looked much worse with no supplemental discipline for Neal. They're apparently stuck on a revenge track, with the punishment based on injury caused, rather than a deterrence track, with punishment intended to deter given behavior. I agree that it provides context for Thornton, but I don't know that characterizing him as a vigilante helps his case.

This is a good philosophical discussion, and I wish that we were having it over a couple beers.

[chippa13 1844]

And yet vigilante can be considered part of the job description of the NHL enforcer.

[Trooper 8]

And yet vigilante can be considered part of the job description of the NHL enforcer.

Well, that's a different but related topic, one about which many will make unsubstantiated claims about deterrence and "The Code".

[wrangler 157]

And yet vigilante can be considered part of the job description of the NHL enforcer.

A big part, and we all have our opinions on that, and most of us have already posted them here somewhere.

[EBondo 233]

Nothing for Tom Wilson.

Is this the first time in Shanahan's tenure that a player who has received a hearing ended up receiving no supplemental discipline as an outcome?

[wrangler 157]

Seems to me it's happened a couple times before.

Or maybe I'm recalling instances where there was no suspension, but a fine.

[Jason Harris 31]

I think a few of you are misunderstanding my point, because we seem to be in agreement that Thornton's actions were reprehensible, a black eye for the league, and deserving of a long suspension.

Where we're in disagreement is I don't believe that because Thornton stepped way out of bounds once, it suggests he's now more at risk of losing his cool again. Sometimes that's true -- such as when I was younger and would have one more beverage than necessary, leading to porcelain praying -- and sometimes it becomes far less likely -- such as happened after I reached an epiphany that I could just stop one beverage sooner.

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

Nothing for Tom Wilson.

Is this the first time in Shanahan's tenure that a player who has received a hearing ended up receiving no supplemental discipline as an outcome?

I'm ok with this. Certainly should be a charging penalty, but he's committed to the hit when Schenn turns his back. Shoulder to shoulder but he gets the back of Schenns shoulder after he turns.

[Trooper 8]

I'm ok with this. Certainly should be a charging penalty, but he's committed to the hit when Schenn turns his back. Shoulder to shoulder but he gets the back of Schenns shoulder after he turns.

He is responsible for his actions. He was trying to run him, period. Again, the league is a laughingstock compared to the other professional leagues.

[Stewie 721]

Why does everyone forget or ignore that the knee to the head and another Bruin teammate down on the ice immediately preceeded Thornton's actions? That doesn't remove the wrongness of his actions but it does provide context.

i think it wouldve been more relevant had he gone after Neal, but either way, doesnt justify his actions.

[Chadd 916]

I'm ok with this. Certainly should be a charging penalty, but he's committed to the hit when Schenn turns his back. Shoulder to shoulder but he gets the back of Schenns shoulder after he turns.

i usually have issues with people claiming that the guy getting hit is at fault because he turned, but in this case I find it to be accurate. He was absolutely guilty of charging, but that alone does not warrant a suspension, only a penalty. The severe injury was caused by the turn to avoid the hit.

[chippa13 1844]

i think it wouldve been more relevant had he gone after Neal, but either way, doesnt justify his actions.

It would have been real hard for him to go after Neal. Neal went straight to the bench and was nowhere near the gathering that ensued right after.

[Stewie 721]

It would have been real hard for him to go after Neal. Neal went straight to the bench and was nowhere near the gathering that ensued right after.

so he went after someone unrelated to that play, who made a hit earlier in the game. Premeditation and being unable to let something go.

[that_guy 2]

It would have been real hard for him to go after Neal. Neal went straight to the bench and was nowhere near the gathering that ensued right after.

Thornton was also no where near that gathering until he skated over to throw an unsuspecting player down and then proceed to jump on him and punch in him the face multiple times. A player that had previously declined further involvement earlier in the period. The context that is important is not Neal's knee, it is what had previously happened during the game.

[Monty22 833]

I wonder how much the criticism Thornton took after the non response to the Cooke hit on Savard motivated Thornton to act as desperate as he did to get retribution this time.

[mojo122 535]

I'd say none. He lost it after seeing 2 teammates take head shots in the same game. The history with Pittsburgh goes back way farther than the Cooke/Savard hit.

[Allsmokenopancake 0]

I still think Neal's actions were much more egregious and much more dangerous.

What Thornton did was stupid and heat of the moment. What Neal did was deliberate and potentially much more dangerous.

I'm also a big ufc fan, and even in that full contact combat sport, knees to the head of a downed opponent are illegal.

The outcry over Steckels shoulder to Crosby's head at the Winter classic a few years ago was much louder. This was far far worse. For a start, it was intentional.

Neal should have come out of that game with far and away the biggest suspension. That's the problem with league discipline now. It's not about the shot, it's about the outcome.

And I've no horse in this race. I'm a caps fan. I hate both teams

[Trooper 8]

I still think Neal's actions were much more egregious and much more dangerous. What Thornton did was stupid and heat of the moment. What Neal did was deliberate and potentially much more dangerous. I'm also a big ufc fan, and even in that full contact combat sport, knees to the head of a downed opponent are illegal. The outcry over Steckels shoulder to Crosby's head at the Winter classic a few years ago was much louder. This was far far worse. For a start, it was intentional. Neal should have come out of that game with far and away the biggest suspension. That's the problem with league discipline now. It's not about the shot, it's about the outcome. And I've no horse in this race. I'm a caps fan. I hate both teams

Neal kneed a guy in the head. Thorton pulled a guy back onto his head, punched him, knocked him out, then continued punching him. Neal's were more dangerous? Both were dangerous and equally deliberate and no amount of speculation and internet quarterbacking can distinguish the difference. If either was heat of the moment it was Neal, Thorton skated down and went after Orpik during a stop in play.

While everyone has opinions, they should be rooted in some kind of objective analysis. The suspensions are messed up. The NHL has shown in the last month it is not serious about player safety. The Wilson pass was a joke. When someone is paralyzed or turned into a vegetable, then we'll see them up in arms.

[chippa13 1844]

Marchand had just been kneed in the head when Thornton skated to the scrum and grabbed Orpik. Neal saw Marchand down on the ice and turned to knee him in the head. Explain how Neal's actions could possibly have been heat of the moment and Thornton's could not. Please, I could use the laugh.

[Trooper 8]

Marchand had just been kneed in the head when Thornton skated to the scrum and grabbed Orpik. Neal saw Marchand down on the ice and turned to knee him in the head. Explain how Neal's actions could possibly have been heat of the moment and Thornton's could not. Please, I could use the laugh.

I said IF a distinction could be made, not that it should. I was responding to someone who said the opposite. The reason I said if was because Neal's happened as an opportunity during a play, Thorton, while play was stopped, comes over 20 seconds after Marchand gets kicked. Neal's suspension was too light, Thorton's was what you would expect.

[IPv6Freely 2094]

Good news! Bettman has upheld the 15 game suspension against Thornton.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=439719