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Flare Skate Blade - Anyone seen this or used it? WIder than typical steel

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22 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Correct, I've not worked in a pro shop. However, I would definitely care. And I would notice. 

You probably see it daily because of something called "sample bias". 

No, you don't notice. In general, at least in my experience without a great deal of force and effort, you wont actually notice the blade moving if you are trying to do so by hand. It's not until the boot gets put in the jig to get sharpened that it becomes noticeable, and this requires a sideways mounted jig, a sparx or any other vertical mounted boot holder will tell you sweet fa.

As to sample bias? I sharpen skates. I don't have any bias other than the fact it's an edge holder that predominately flops. Everyone needs skates sharpened, regardless of skate brand. I see every type of brand and edge holders are the worst. Admittedly I don't do hundreds of skate a week, I live in a small town where ice sports are a niche market but I'm only echoing what other high volume, quality professional sharpeners have seen every day, @oldtrainerguy28.

Edited by Vet88
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4 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

No, you don't notice. In general, at least in my experience without a great deal of force and effort, you wont actually notice the blade moving if you are trying to do so by hand. It's not until the boot gets put in the jig to get sharpened that it becomes noticeable, and this requires a sideways mounted jig, a sparx or any other vertical mounted boot holder will tell you sweet fa.

As to sample bias? I sharpen skates. I don't have any bias other than the fact it's an edge holder that predominately flops. Everyone needs skates sharpened, regardless of skate brand. I see every type of brand and edge holders are the worst. Admittedly I don't do hundreds of skate a week, I live in a small town where ice sports are a niche market but I'm only echoing what other high volume, quality professional sharpeners have seen every day, @oldtrainerguy.

I think I can mimic the force of gravity with my hand, so not seeing how vertical vs horizontal jig would make a difference. 

If not there, I would definitely notice on the ice. 

Regarding sample bias, if you could provide more specific statistics, that would help. Without that, my point is simply that according to global sales, you're likely to see an oversampling of Bauer skates in your shop in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, Vet88 said:

Then it sounds like you haven't worked in a shop sharpening skates. It's an issue I see daily, put the steel in the clamp and watch the boot flop. Most players don't care because they don't want to pay for the repairs and for a beer league competition it just doesn't make things that much better. Talk to anyone who cares about their equipment and it's impact on performance (at least in my experience) and then it's a different matter. 

Simple question. Do they not care because they don't want to pay for it, or do they not care because they don't notice it?

I've been using edge holders for 5-6 years. I don't play at a high level, C level beer league, but I'm on the ice multiple times a week year round. The only issue I have ever had with the holder was one particular set of aftermarket steel. Which was out of spec and promptly replaced by the manufacturer.

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3 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I think I can mimic the force of gravity with my hand, so not seeing how vertical vs horizontal jig would make a difference. 

And so I have heard the same from just about every other skater I point it out to, I can't make it move as they try to shift it by hand. Leverage, as Archimedes said. Put it in a holder....

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1 minute ago, Vet88 said:

And so I have heard the same from just about every other skater I point it out to, I can't make it move as they try to shift it by hand. Leverage, as Archimedes said. Put it in a holder....

Perhaps you could give us a real-world example. 

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Just now, stick9 said:

Simple question. Do they not care because they don't want to pay for it, or do they not care because they don't notice it?

I've been using edge holders for 5-6 years. I don't play at a high level, C level beer league, but I'm on the ice multiple times a week year round. The only issue I have ever had with the holder was one particular set of aftermarket steel. Which was out of spec and promptly replaced by the manufacturer.

Bit of both and if they don't really notice it they aren't willing to pay for it. Remember that it doesn't suddenly let go, it happens over time and you are adapting to it every time you skate. I'm not saying every edge holder has this issue but it is more significant in edge than any other brand.

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Just now, pgeorgan said:

Perhaps you could give us a real-world example. 

I have, if you search earlier threads about this issue I posted pics of my sons skates, neither I, the sharpener I was going to at the time or my son could move the blade by hand yet put his MX3's in the jig and the flop was very noticeable. Fixed it with Teflon tape but eventually they should have been replaced, I didn't as he moved on to other skates shortly after this. 

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2 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

I have, if you search earlier threads about this issue I posted pics of my sons skates, neither I, the sharpener I was going to at the time or my son could move the blade by hand yet put his MX3's in the jig and the flop was very noticeable. Fixed it with Teflon tape but eventually they should have been replaced, I didn't as he moved on to other skates shortly after this. 

What I mean is, a real-world example of how this is noticeable with a sideways jig and not a vertical one. 

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I don't have access to prosharp, sparx or elite sharpeners (they are the ones I know of that use a vertical mount). But do I really have to explain how, if you can't move it by hand, it's not going to show up in a vertical mount that has very little sideways deflection occurring on the boot? You stick the boot in the machine and you press the button, it's not going to move sideways unless you are actually testing it and then it's up to the quality of the clamping unit. If you really want to test it in a vertical mount I'd suggest a bench mounted vice clamp would be a better proposition.

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Just now, Vet88 said:

I don't have access to prosharp, sparx or elite sharpeners (they are the ones I know of that use a vertical mount). But do I really have to explain how, if you can't move it by hand, it's not going to show up in a vertical mount that has very little sideways deflection occurring on the boot? You stick the boot in the machine and you press the button, it's not going to move sideways unless you are actually testing it and then it's up to the quality of the clamping unit. If you really want to test it in a vertical mount I'd suggest a bench mounted vice clamp would be a better proposition.

That's what I'm getting at. I can test it manually. With a vertical jig. 

What I'm not going to do, though, is lean on the skate, because that would be unrealistic, wouldn't it? 

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1 minute ago, pgeorgan said:

What I'm not going to do, though, is lean on the skate, because that would be unrealistic, wouldn't it? 

Why not? What forces are going thru the inside edge when you accelerate from a standing start? Foot pronating into the push, your whole body weight on one foot driving thru the toe. 100kgs then or you pushing on it in a jig?

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8 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Why not? What forces are going thru the inside edge when you accelerate from a standing start? Foot pronating into the push, your whole body weight on one foot driving thru the toe. 100kgs then or you pushing on it in a jig?

Maybe I'm not being clear: what amount of Force, in Newtons, would you say you have to apply in your experiment to the boot/steel/jig whatever, to reproduce the problem. 

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Theory is not my strong point, I'd start with weighing your boot then multiplying the kgs by 9.8, that will give you the newton force of the boot in a sideways jig (yes, I included the steel in the jig). If gravity is moving it then this force in a vertical jig should move it.

And my apologies to the flare thread, this is my last post on this particular matter.

Edited by Vet88

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16 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Theory is not my strong point, I'd start with weighing your boot then multiplying the kgs by 9.8, that will give you the newton force of the boot in a sideways jig (yes, I included the steel in the jig). If gravity is moving it then this force in a vertical jig should move it.

And my apologies to the flare thread, this is my last post on this particular matter.

Exactly. Safe to say I should be able to reproduce the issue in a vertical jig. 

I'll keep an eye out but my holders/skates/steel are newer so sounds like it's been dealt with per your recommendation to Bauer. 

I'm very particular about my gear, but I always have to remind myself how many incredibly talented players I've played with over the years who's equipment probably came from Play-It-Again Sports. In fact in the beer leagues, I find the level of talent and the quality of gear are usually inversely related 😂

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19 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

Maybe I'm not being clear: what amount of Force, in Newtons, would you say you have to apply in your experiment to the boot/steel/jig whatever, to reproduce the problem. 

When I get home from overseas doing sharpening training I will send you a video of how many Newton's it takes    ZERO .  in worn holders.

and I have had it happen in ones 3 months old. And was movable out of the jig. Stop the bs that it doesnt happen. I have had it happen in XS holders produced before a certain date( have to look again) but it's the laws of physicis.  plastic cant lock in a more substantial material and keep it firm. Especially when on each stop on the ice the blade is under pressure and in some cases vibrates in hard stops. 

I also have slow motion video where you can see it flex. to the point it effects the stride. 

ex: A top gthl player in Toronto was about to play in the OHL cup last year at this time. He was in a scoring slump and not skating as well. Mother noticed it. 

I had mentioned numerous times they were lose but superstitious fidnt want to change. Mom who was an avid player herself made him come in so I could show him how bad they were. His new slates had arrived but didn't want to change to them as his coach Paul Coffey wouldnt allow it.  Paul is funny like that. His kid no problem.  anyone else on the team unless it's broken fix it dont replace  

Anyway we changed holders after I showed him and he tried on his new skates he could feel it. 

Player went in to lead the OHL cup in scoring and was drafted 5th overall. 

So yes it's a problem. 

Hope that's real world enough for you. 

You blow me away thinking we are making this up. 

 

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22 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

When I get home from overseas doing sharpening training I will send you a video of how many Newton's it takes    ZERO .  in worn holders.

and I have had it happen in ones 3 months old. And was movable out of the jig. Stop the bs that it doesnt happen. I have had it happen in XS holders produced before a certain date( have to look again) but it's the laws of physicis.  plastic cant lock in a more substantial material and keep it firm. Especially when on each stop on the ice the blade is under pressure and in some cases vibrates in hard stops. 

I also have slow motion video where you can see it flex. to the point it effects the stride. 

ex: A top gthl player in Toronto was about to play in the OHL cup last year at this time. He was in a scoring slump and not skating as well. Mother noticed it. 

I had mentioned numerous times they were lose but superstitious fidnt want to change. Mom who was an avid player herself made him come in so I could show him how bad they were. His new slates had arrived but didn't want to change to them as his coach Paul Coffey wouldnt allow it.  Paul is funny like that. His kid no problem.  anyone else on the team unless it's broken fix it dont replace  

Anyway we changed holders after I showed him and he tried on his new skates he could feel it. 

Player went in to lead the OHL cup in scoring and was drafted 5th overall. 

So yes it's a problem. 

Hope that's real world enough for you. 

You blow me away thinking we are making this up. 

 

I wanted to know bc OP said I wouldn't be able to detect it in an upright clamp. At zero newtons, seems like they were wrong. Also, we were talking about Tuuk holders, not XS. 

As I stated, I will keep an eye out, but I'm not going to extrapolate about an entire sample set because of a few anecdotal corner cases with an indeterminate number of variables - also known as "confirmation bias". 

Regarding plastic vs metal, see here: Metal vs Plastic: 5 Key Comparisons

Most players aren't going to cause that kind of wear. At the professional level, sure, but pros consume their gear at a considerably higher rate than everyone else. 

The good news is, holders are incredibly cheap to replace. 

I still don't see this really being an issue during gameplay. You've got bigger problems if you torque your ankle to the extent OP said it would take to reproduce the problem. After all, it's ice, not a vice grip. 

Edited by pgeorgan
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33 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I wanted to know bc OP said I wouldn't be able to detect it in an upright clamp. At zero newtons, seems like they were wrong. Also, we were talking about Tuuk holders, not XS. 

As I stated, I will keep an eye out, but I'm not going to extrapolate about an entire sample set because of a few anecdotal corner cases with an indeterminate number of variables - also known as "confirmation bias". 

Regarding plastic vs metal, see here: Metal vs Plastic: 5 Key Comparisons

Most players aren't going to cause that kind of wear. At the professional level, sure, but pros consume their gear at a considerably higher rate than everyone else. 

The good news is, holders are incredibly cheap to replace. 

I still don't see this really being an issue during gameplay. You've got bigger problems if you torque your ankle to the extent OP said it would take to reproduce the problem. After all, it's ice, not a vice grip. 

With the potential to sounds a little arrogant here, you said yourself that you're a C level beer league player. You don't have the skating skill set and fundamentals (most likely) for it to affect you because, well, you're a great skater. What I find hilariously funny (not funny like a clown), is that you've been a member here for just shy of 2 months and you're arguing with someone that is a PROFESSIONAL EQM at the highest levels. Do you think that he sits at home at night during the 6 hours of downtime he has to make this shit up and for you to say he's evidence is anecdotal? It seems like you're here just to troll and create arguments well after facts have been shown regarding the questions at hand. It's really a shame too, because this thread was interesting until you continued to insinuate that apparently nobody else on here knows what the hell we're talking about. You should really research who you're talking to and understand what level of intelligence, skill and years of expertise they have before coming in here and spouting nonsense. So, I guess I'm done with this thread now!  @JR Boucicaut can we close this topic it's jumped the shark about a dozen times now.

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20 minutes ago, darkhors said:

With the potential to sounds a little arrogant here, you said yourself that you're a C level beer league player. You don't have the skating skill set and fundamentals (most likely) for it to affect you because, well, you're a great skater. What I find hilariously funny (not funny like a clown), is that you've been a member here for just shy of 2 months and you're arguing with someone that is a PROFESSIONAL EQM at the highest levels. Do you think that he sits at home at night during the 6 hours of downtime he has to make this shit up and for you to say he's evidence is anecdotal? It seems like you're here just to troll and create arguments well after facts have been shown regarding the questions at hand. It's really a shame too, because this thread was interesting until you continued to insinuate that apparently nobody else on here knows what the hell we're talking about. You should really research who you're talking to and understand what level of intelligence, skill and years of expertise they have before coming in here and spouting nonsense. So, I guess I'm done with this thread now!  @JR Boucicaut can we close this topic it's jumped the shark about a dozen times now.

I never said I was a C level beer league player. I actually played college at a BIG 10 school, and I can play both goalie and forward. 

I suggest you re-read my posts. You will find them to be well-reasoned and thought out.

On more than one occasion, I've submitted that I will be more cognizant of the alleged problem, but that I've not personally encountered it. 

It honestly feels like the issue is some people getting frustrated they can't convince otherwise happy consumers to share in the animus towards Bauer. 

I didn't bring up Bauer. Other people did - yourself included. 

And the goal was to gain knowledge, not troll. Not only do I have an upright sharpener, but I have multiple pairs of Bauer skates.

So (reading my prior posts), hopefully it makes sense where I'm coming from.

Lastly, this isn't the first time I've asked for specific examples from some of the posters and been met with, "I'm an expert, trust me".

Edited by pgeorgan

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4 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

I never said I was a C level beer league player. I actually played college at a BIG 10 school, and I can play both goalie and forward. 

I suggest you re-read my posts. You will find them to be well-reasoned and thought out.

On more than one occasion, I've submitted that I will be more cognizant of the alleged problem, but that I've not personally encountered it. 

It honestly feels like the issue is some people getting frustrated they can't convince otherwise happy consumers to share in the animus towards Bauer. 

I didn't bring up Bauer. Other people did - yourself included. 

And the goal was to gain knowledge, not troll. Not only do I have an upright sharpener, but I have multiple pairs of Bauer skates.

So (reading my prior posts), hopefully it makes sense where I'm coming from.

Lastly, this isn't the first time I've asked for specific examples from some of the posters and been met with, "I'm an expert, trust me".

Ok then. what top 10 school because over the last 2o years I have worked with players both male and female who are top players in the NCAA.  

Tell me the school and I give you a person on that team that knows me and knows I'm not full of shit

 All my players inhave had major issues with are all players at CIS NCAA and OHL AHL and NHL. plus local AAA players heading to those places

 players that are on the skates 6 to 7 days a week and are hard on them. 

If you want list I could give you exact teams but due to privacy of the top players the players names wont be released. 

My education may not be as high as yours in school so my vocabulary won't be to your standards. But when was the last time you were flown to play hockey in Amsterdam, Australia, Canada, USA and now China. 

All these places I have been brought to Train sharpening not just do it. 

Did your hockey career end in NCAA? 

I'm still learning. what I have learned is the Bauer Edge Holder is not anything what it could be. 30 plus years in the business plus a World Championship 2 National Championship and numerous Provincial Championships.  

2 years ago top team in North America.  

So yes Trust me I am an expert!!!

Also one of the longest members on this site as I helped sort out fitting online 2 years before this site was made with @JR Boucicaut help to someone I recall was Mako? maybe. 

Anyway spin this the way you want. Bauer stole the idea and didnt make it better. Period. 

Thank you to @darkhors for the comments even though I don't know you. 

 

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And back on Topic ..I believe @Flare Skate Blade is on to something and they are willing toisten to suggestions unlike some above. And even critical feedback. Including admitting there first product 4 or more years ago was not great steel. The steel is good  ow the finish amazing and soon as I decide what I'm doing holder wise I am going to look into them much more thoroughly. 

I believe they have a solid product. I just refuse to spend any more money on blades for a holder I dont have faith in to last more than 3 months with level of players I deal with that are not on pro teams yet and are not getting the blades for free. 

Keep up the good work Flare

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2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Ok then. what top 10 school because over the last 2o years I have worked with players both male and female who are top players in the NCAA.  

Tell me the school and I give you a person on that team that knows me and knows I'm not full of shit

 All my players inhave had major issues with are all players at CIS NCAA and OHL AHL and NHL. plus local AAA players heading to those places

 players that are on the skates 6 to 7 days a week and are hard on them. 

If you want list I could give you exact teams but due to privacy of the top players the players names wont be released. 

My education may not be as high as yours in school so my vocabulary won't be to your standards. But when was the last time you were flown to play hockey in Amsterdam, Australia, Canada, USA and now China. 

All these places I have been brought to Train sharpening not just do it. 

Did your hockey career end in NCAA? 

I'm still learning. what I have learned is the Bauer Edge Holder is not anything what it could be. 30 plus years in the business plus a World Championship 2 National Championship and numerous Provincial Championships.  

2 years ago top team in North America.  

So yes Trust me I am an expert!!!

Also one of the longest members on this site as I helped sort out fitting online 2 years before this site was made with @JR Boucicaut help to someone I recall was Mako? maybe. 

Anyway spin this the way you want. Bauer stole the idea and didnt make it better. Period. 

Thank you to @darkhors for the comments even though I don't know you. 

 

That's awesome. 

I was just looking for empirical data. 

Tough times in the age of the algorithm .

Edited by pgeorgan

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15 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

I trust computers over you. 

What else can I say? 

 

Not much, pretty much says it all. 

 

Personally. @JR Boucicaut not sure who this person is but I did go back and I have rarely been on as of late yet most of your posts troll me. 

So not sure what your agenda is but beat of luck with it. 

Funny how when you get called out you trust computers?? what does that have to anything about Flare or Edge holders being weak. 

My expiernece plus any machine  besides a Sparx hell I could probably make that better as well.but never would. 

Off to do something useful besides waiste more time with your BS.

 

 

Edited by oldtrainerguy28

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3 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

That's awesome. 

I was just looking for empirical data. 

Tough times in the age of the algorithm .

Empirical data?  You mean like somebody’s observations who works in the field full-time at a high level?  You’re in luck then...  

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7 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

 

Not much, pretty much says it all. 

 

Personally. @JR Boucicaut not sure who this person is but I did go back and I have rarely been on as of late yet most of your posts troll me. 

So not sure what your agenda is but beat of luck with it. 

Funny how when you get called out you trust computers?? what does that have to anything about Flare or Edge holders being weak. 

My expiernece plus any machine  besides a Sparx hell I could probably make that better as well.but never would. 

Off to do something useful besides waiste more time with your BS.

 

 

I’ve searched through your posts and am seeing a pattern:

*Buys a Sparx*

“You’re an idiot”.

*Buys Bauer* 

“Bauer is crap”.

Don’t buy Bauer. It’s a free country. Idc. But there are a lot of happy customers on here with both.

You’re a seasoned EQM. Great. Straw man. Never challenged that. No need for the massive chip on your shoulder. But guess what, we had this little thing called the Scientific Revolution. People want to see for themselves.

The fact that you’re upset I don’t share in your animus is your problem. Not mine.

When I make a case, I say things like, "Here are the breakdowns on NHL equipment preference." Sticks. Gloves. Pants. Helmets. And yes, skates.

Try it some time. 

End rant.

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