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Skate Mod

ROVER HOCKEY SKATES PROJECT

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Graf Bump, Bauer bump, it all means the same, which is haglund heel condition.

 

Even though Graf skates have a more pronounced heel pocket, a lot depends on the heel to toe offset of the boot and holder (heel drop) design.

 

The lower the offset the more you’ll need to elevate your heel to get a decent amount of push-off, the higher the offset, for example figure skates, the less you need to elevate your heel.

 

So many factors have to be considered when we are talking about which particular skate model has more effect on haglund heel.

 

Now this is the skate design aspect, we also have to take personal bio-mechanics into consideration

 

We have players with short stride, medium stride, and long stride.

 

If you are Patrick Kane who’s got very short stride, he’s more of a hopper then an actual push-off skater, so very short stride, he needs less heel elevation, and he can also skate in a very stiff skate and tie up the laces all the way up since he’s not extending his leg too much forward, so minimal knee bent.

 

If we look at the NHL, more then 50% of players do not tie up their skates all the way, because they have long strides, they need deeper heel pocket, so they simply can’t tie up the skates, it’s too restrictive on both sides, the lack of decent heel pocket and the front of the boot is too stiff with excessive lace bite from an overly stiff skate.

 

If we look at Junior A, 10 -16 age group this is where you make most of your profits on a mass produced skate, when I’m at the rink I see about 80-90% that do not tie up their skates, and I see a lot of “noodle” legs and way to much wobbling. Where as when I’m at another rink and watching figure skaters of all levels I don’t see noodle legs, because the skates are designed and manufactured differently.

 

As for Marsblade in comparison to my SPR Holder. MarsBlade is a gimmick, the baseline increases in length when you apply weight in the forefoot, so if we used the ice hockey analogy you are skating on 9 foot radius and when you apply pressure it turns into a 13 foot radius which is not the same as combination radius.

If we did that technology with an ice skate, you would be scraping your face and the rest of your body parts from the boards. That’s why no one in Roller uses it at a pro level, it’s one trick pony, so it has nothing to do with my design.

 

@RoverHockey

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On 12/26/2017 at 10:31 AM, stick9 said:

I took the time to read through everything on the crowdfunding page. 

Just a friendly constructive tip. It would be wise to have a marketing type person proof read your stuff. There were some grammatical errors and some stuff that could have explained better.

I think you have a good idea. I’m just not sure there is a market. Also, I think you may be over complicating the manufacturing process. From what I can tell, given the options and variations available to players, the entire boot will need to be handmade from scratch. This will lead to long lead times and require meticulous quality control. Not to mention the inventory nightmare you are opening yourself up to by stocking all those different materials.

The holder, I’d scrap that and make it players choice. Bauer’s tuuk is essentially the industry standard. It’s stood the test of time, people trust it. CCM has made decent strides, but are still way behind. 

Personally, I’d do one or the other not both. Maybe partner with Marsblade and use their holder. You’ve got 15 months until delivery. That’s not much time considering you need to qualify every part and every process then test it. 

Best of luck!

Good points . I had to go by the rendering.  I was thinking the movement was all in the blade.   Trying to see/feel in my mind what it would feel like having the sole flex . The flex also in the blade, in my minds eye I see energy being lost within in it . 

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1 hour ago, Skate Mod said:

As for Marsblade in comparison to my SPR Holder. MarsBlade is a gimmick, the baseline increases in length when you apply weight in the forefoot, so if we used the ice hockey analogy you are skating on 9 foot radius and when you apply pressure it turns into a 13 foot radius which is not the same as combination radius.

Gimmick...that’s an interesting choice of words. That gimmick is an actual product. They have actual functioning units out being tested by big name NHLers. 

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That is actually another interesting point. NHL has an approval process which determines if a certain tech is allowed or not on NHL ice. Marsblade is not approved and regardless of who loves it, it will continue to be irrelevant. @Skate Mod starting his struggles as an uphill battle due to the holder on his skates is not going to be desirable untill it is approved by NHL, which is light years away from the first run especially that it has something clever in it (unlike Step holder) Why anyone who plays hockey would invest in skates that they have to rip the holders off and put regular Tuuks on? @Skate Mod , the way I see, as of now, you are designing skates for freestylers, not hockey. Nothing wrong with that, it is a demographic capable affording $600 pair of skates.

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1 minute ago, stick9 said:

Gimmick...that’s an interesting choice of words. That gimmick is an actual product. They have actual functioning units out being tested by big name NHLers. 

I think the rover project is not a prime time concept yet . These composite skates are the the issue.   The body has a natural thing, the ankle  that supplies the movement that is now trying to be mechanically simulated  . The hockey skate doesn't have to be a cast to have support.  It has to fit for ultimately the way it should work is the support as in wobbly ankles or not is from material being in tension.  Counters have to be stiff

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33 minutes ago, stick9 said:

Gimmick...that’s an interesting choice of words. That gimmick is an actual product. They have actual functioning units out being tested by big name NHLers. 

Definitely not a gimmick. Marsblade holder is the closest thing today to putting player in control of the amount of forward pitch based on situation. This actually embodying the concept of the hockey Rover in some ways.

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38 minutes ago, Playmakersedge said:

I think the rover project is not a prime time concept yet . These composite skates are the the issue.   The body has a natural thing, the ankle  that supplies the movement that is now trying to be mechanically simulated  . The hockey skate doesn't have to be a cast to have support.  It has to fit for ultimately the way it should work is the support as in wobbly ankles or not is from material being in tension.  Counters have to be stiff

Do not forget that there were skates with actual hinge at the ankle, so they act as a brace (reducing side to side, while preserves front back movement). They are long gone, but still admired by few. The only progress in hockey skates that found an appreciation is in weight reduction, moisture management, impact protection, and blades change speed; everything else is like a puff of smoke, it comes and goes before many ever notice it. Marsblade will probably follow that route as well. No matter how cool that articulation is, question will be, can they take a hit, how long it takes to replace a blade. Hockey is much more than skating.

Edited by Kgbeast
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Ever hear of Morton's Neuroma? I have a mild case of it on one foot from having worn shoes that were too narrow for my duck feet. It develops when nerves between the toes get repeatedly irritated from the flexing of the forefoot in a shoe that's too narrow/tight. It doesn't cause me any problems in a tight skate since the forefoot doesn't flex but I need to wear shoes with a wide loose forefoot. I may be wrong but I have a feeling that having the forefoot flexing in a tight skate would actually cause Morton's neuroma. It would be a good idea to look into this before risking damage to people's feet. Today we have Bauer bumps, tomorrow we might have Rover neuroma.

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It's a little off topic but... Marsblade isn't a gimmick and it's logic is sound. By enabling the skate to find a natural center of balance because the blade will shift under the boot is a big leap forward, this is actually replacing some of the work the ankle does in front to back balance. The reason why players (NHL and others) have only promo tested it so far is because 1: it's not approved (the NHL are testing it now) and 2: it's mid season. No one is going to change holders now only to find out in the middle of a shift the holder fails on you. The real testing will happen in the off season when they are able to prove the holder and then we will see next season how successful the tech is.

So for Skate Mod to introduce a new holder is a big ask, unless you are a big brand and want your own holder then you either need revolutionary tech and or a overwhelmingly good price point to enable you to gain interest and a foothold in the market. There is a lot of credence in the idea of licensing / using Marsblade for your boot whilst you develop your own holder.

As to the boot, it has a lot of good ideas. Especially allowing a boot to follow the shape and contours of the foot as you skate. Bendy hinge, soft creases, flexible holder, front entry, top entry, 2 piece blade, insertable self forming heel lock and forefoot pads, removable liners, movable holders etc etc etc are all things to be considered (lol, send me the royalty cheques later). It is hard getting people interested in a small jump, if it were me I'd be going all they way. This boot has to be radically different and really solve a lot of the issues that big name manufacturers don't address with a 3 line fits all approach. A mid priced skate that is light weight with top of the line outstanding custom features, now I might start to get interested. And I do think if you aren't 3D printing the boot, or at least the shell, from a scan or photos that someone can take at home with a ph app then you are way behind the 8 ball.

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23 minutes ago, Larry54 said:

Ever hear of Morton's Neuroma? I have a mild case of it on one foot from having worn shoes that were too narrow for my duck feet. It develops when nerves between the toes get repeatedly irritated from the flexing of the forefoot in a shoe that's too narrow/tight. It doesn't cause me any problems in a tight skate since the forefoot doesn't flex but I need to wear shoes with a wide loose forefoot. I may be wrong but I have a feeling that having the forefoot flexing in a tight skate would actually cause Morton's neuroma. It would be a good idea to look into this before risking damage to people's feet. Today we have Bauer bumps, tomorrow we might have Rover neuroma.

I had a neuroma once, I think. That was like having a toothache on top of your foot. F that! I'd rather not skate.

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KgBeast:

I think you might be the only person that knows enough about the engineering part of the skate where most do not realize that hockey skate technology has not progressed in 15 -20 years and will not progress in another 20 years, because of the "Feel" factor and the “Fit” factor.  “Fixed ankle pivot is not an anatomically correct movement”

Bauer 1S is still using the same materials and process as the day of One90/One95, including internal materials that were even used in old CCM Tacks 652.

CCM FT1 and new Tacks are using the same 20 year old Surlyn that was first implemented in Vapor 8, Vapor 10, Vapor XXX all the way up to any Bauer model called “TechMesh”

The Nylon Holder is still made from Zytel from the day of Custom+ and will be made from Zytel for the next 20 years by all skate companies because of the “Feel” factor and it’s impact strength.

So a lot of the concerns you raise on my skates going through testing , impact, flex, stress testing, 12 moth delivery……have no merit because only a person knowledgeable in the art of developing skates would understand the process and realize that there is no need to reinvent the wheel, all we need is to fix issues that are ideology based not engineering based.

My skates are made based on using the same materials with a proven track record on both, flexural modulus, impact strength, longevity, “FeeL” factor but with more tweaks in fixing issues that are not fixed because of company “Ideology” and not their desire to innovate.

If I come out with the same skate as Bauer and same holder with no improvement, I would guess most of you would ramp up the criticism by 100% in telling me why would you invest in something identical to current skates.

There is a fine line in improvement and radical “Niche” product. I know that line very well including the line of NHL approval on radical inventions so I’m not making anything radical despite what it looks like in my rendering.

Companies do not disclose materials that they use, so you are being sucked into thinking you are buying a new technology every two years, in reality you are buying a new graphics package.  The difference between a $500 skate and $1000 is the wall thickness of the same material and it’s density, that’s about it.

If you start reading Bauer’s recent patents and their new holder, boot …innovations what you will see in the next 5 years is us going backwards to things that were already tried before,  so more open cut out holders (CCM Pro Lite) was open cut out concept.

You will see Bauer trying to inject foam into the boot to compete with VH more anatomical fit, foam has been used already in skates 20 years a go and has been used in ski industry for many years.

They simply do not want to abandon the one –piece construction method and the “Square Box” fit mentality, because it’s cheap and fast method.

What you will see is Bauer using older pattern cuts on an overlapping section from 20 year old Micron Mega skates spun of as new invention

My challenge is to convince people that I’m not better, but to convince people that no one is better, we have issues with Fit and Feel, where we can’t fix them with advanced materials or advanced manufacturing methods, one company cannot fill that void on it’s own, too much money will go on R&D.

 

That’s why Bauer and now followed by CCM copying their production methods and design strategy developed a plan based on “Square Box” mentality” where as my strategy is more narrow focused, and my improvements are not radical but based on ideology, even the SPR holder has minimal flex where you barely notice it. Extreme innovation will never work on ice, we have major feel issues, a small change always feels like a huge change.

Forefoot lock spun off as new invention:

10cks5e.jpg

wkpvmr.jpg

2a9y0bo.jpg

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Skate Mod said:

There is a fine line in improvement and radical “Niche” product. I know that line very well including the line of NHL approval on radical inventions so I’m not making anything radical despite what it looks like in my rendering.

I know I'm not yet qualified to make ridiculous statements about skates, but your rendering doesn't look radical at all. It's a bric-a-brac collage of plagiarized portions from prior skates: Vapor 8 and 10 detailing on the side panels, one90 foxings on the lower portion of the quarters, Fuel tendon guard and back stay, Quest eyestay by the toecap. That and your concept is essentially skate designs from 30-years ago with materials from 20-years ago. Sort of a reincarnation of the Supple Fit.

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1 hour ago, DarkStar50 said:

That Power Clip was fashion over function. 

I wore the Mega 10-90s for 15 years and still say it was the best skate ever made.  That power clip offered zero performance improvement, but it did have one unintended benefit.  It essentially acted similar to skate locks, in that the laces in that section of the skate would not work themselves loose.

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1 hour ago, DarkStar50 said:

That Power Clip was fashion over function. 

This- even if it wasn't made of soft, pliable plastic I don't think it would have accomplished it's stated purpose. 

Nice to see you posting again DS50

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Skate Mod, putting aside the product, who is running your financial department? If you seek $1mil in start up costs, sell skates for $500/$700 a pair, when do you expect to earn the first penny after covering all the initial costs of production? How many skates do you have to sell before you earn the first penny? How many players in your marketing projection will be buying your skates(what's the warranty?) in year one? Ideas are great. Numbers are reality. 

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20 hours ago, Skate Mod said:

I think you might be the only person that knows enough about the engineering part of the skate where most do not realize that hockey skate technology has not progressed in 15 -20 years and will not progress in another 20 years, because of the "Feel" factor and the “Fit” factor.  “Fixed ankle pivot is not an anatomically correct movement”

Bauer 1S is still using the same materials and process as the day of One90/One95, including internal materials that were even used in old CCM Tacks 652.

CCM FT1 and new Tacks are using the same 20 year old Surlyn that was first implemented in Vapor 8, Vapor 10, Vapor XXX all the way up to any Bauer model called “TechMesh”

The Nylon Holder is still made from Zytel from the day of Custom+ and will be made from Zytel for the next 20 years by all skate companies because of the “Feel” factor and it’s impact strength.

Companies do not disclose materials that they use, so you are being sucked into thinking you are buying a new technology every two years, in reality you are buying a new graphics package.  The difference between a $500 skate and $1000 is the wall thickness of the same material and it’s density, that’s about it.

 

 

Sources? Can anyone else here confirm this? Curious how the 1S skate uses the exact same materials like the One90 because they felt really different to me.

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1 hour ago, 02m3smg said:

Sources? Can anyone else here confirm this? Curious how the 1S skate uses the exact same materials like the One90 because they felt really different to me.

The One 90 was a tech mesh boot, where as the 1S is Curv, so not the same materials.  I think I understand the point Skate Mod is trying to make, but throwing out factually incorrect statements isn't helping.

I'll refrain from commenting on the merits of one material over the other.

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Regardless of whether I agree or not, I have to give props to the guy for trying to find an alternative solution... 

Just thinking out loud, I think you'll find limited success in crowdfunding because the solution doesn't appear to be all that radical from the existing options in the market (it may seem radical to you but not to the person who is currently getting by with the skates he/she already has).  Why buck up $500+ on a product that won't be delivered for well over a year when I have options to meet my need today (may not be the perfect option but they work pretty well)?  IMO, ditch the crowdfunding and focus on investors.  Rather than spend time trying to justify to a large number of individual potential buyers (and repeatedly have the same back and forth debate over what is a drop in the bucket of the overall goal), go to the sources that have the amount of money you need and do what you need to do to get the necessary financing.

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