VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

17 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Actually I am pretty sure it was mentioned before that it has been addressed by adding an inner layer over the carbon fiber so the rivets can dig in. And rightly pointed out by JR some shops do not have the correct size when installing or replacing rivets. And tge copper base does an excellent job flattening out tge rivets. 

@Larry54 - Jeff was referring to True here. 

[Zac911 317]

5 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

So you know, I have paid for better fit... I get it.  I have custom Bauer V-cuts.  I spent more than I would have sent on True skates.  I will tell you why...  I was concerned about the durability and workmanship issues, the weight and the overall stiffness of the skate.  So I am not againts guys paying to get the fit they want.  As a consumer I expect certain quality for my money.  That being said, I do think that the vast, vast majority of people do not need to spend what I did or go custom in any way.  They need a good fitter and enough product to try on.  Thats why I think all customs - no matter the manufacturer - are a niche skate unless the price drop to 500-600.

Its not the leap of faith part, nor, for me, is it the cost...  it's the concerns over what I have seen and heard.  I think there are some things that still need to be addressed on the skate.

I also don't expect you to say anything different - you work for them.

Can you elaborate, exactly, on what material was put into the footbed to address the concerns there?

Completely understand;  however,  those of you guys that really know me-  If I didn't like them I would just avoid talking about them as to not put myself in an awkward situation with my employer ( note I am a 1099 contractor and NOT a direct employee ).  What's the old saying?  Listen more to what I don't say?  

I generally don't care to comment on alot of stuff because,  the usual comments of " yeah,  but you work for them " or the general attitude that some take that it's their job to police or dissect comments from mfg's reps.  It's hard to foster that behaviour if you want rep participation.  I'm here to help if you have questions,  but I don't have time to go back and forth with someone who needs to argue for sport or has time to kill at work.  I certainly don't have those luxuries and you generally don't see me picking arguments or fights with members... I may have had a few heated discussions with @JunkyardAthleticthat go back 12 or so years,  but he's also a friend of mine and I can just pick up a phone as well and hash it out with him.  Again... Those of you who truly know me... Know that I have ZERO EGO in this.  Which I have encountered working with certain individuals in this industry.  I just don't get it.  

There have absolutely been a few challenges scaling up the operation in Winnipeg;  however,  that team in that facility is truly first class and will do their best to resolve any potential issue. 

Making skates by hand like they do might never give you the aestheitcs you have become accustomed to with mass produced skates.  It's just a difference in the business model.  Scalability / Volume & Profit Margins vs Smaller Scale / Hand Made & Better Fit.  Scott truly feels his process produces a better fitting boot that just happens to perform better.  Those were his two main goals when he got into this... Making money wasn't even on the radar... He had to figure that out as he went.  Not an easy thing to do.  Scott is truly a pioneer in this industry-  And that is rare when you look at how many companies have failed or were bought out with the sole purpose of being shut down to create less competition.

I know my dealers received a kit with additional parts including steel rivets that were more size appropriate for our shell design.  I have not yet dealt directly / read in depth enough with the issue at hand,  so I am unsure I can comment accurately on it.  I would need to catch up on all the reading.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Zac911
Grammar Nazi / Spelling

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

2 minutes ago, Zac911 said:

ut I don't have time to go back and forth with someone who needs to argue for sport or has time to kill at work. 

Actually I'm on vacation this week...   but fair enough and I do appreciate your participation.  I've said my piece.  I'm not trying to knock the skate.  I just think too many have drank the kool aide and need to be more objective.  I'm done with the debate.  Bored.

[Vet88 674]

2 hours ago, Zac911 said:

Completely understand;  however,  those of you guys that really know me-  If I didn't like them I would just avoid talking about them as to not put myself in an awkward situation with my employer.  What's the old saying?  Listen more to what I don't say?  

Any comment on True not accepting foot casts from customers? Is that just a fall out from an upscaling of production and they can no longer process orders this way?

[Zac911 317]

5 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Actually I'm on vacation this week...   but fair enough and I do appreciate your participation.  I've said my piece.  I'm not trying to knock the skate.  I just think too many have drank the kool aide and need to be more objective.  I'm done with the debate.  Bored.

Luckeeeeee :)

[Zac911 317]

2 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Any comment on True not accepting foot casts from customers? Is that just a fall out from an upscaling of production and they can no longer process orders this way?

I don't know why.  Any reason you are not able to be scanned?

[Sniper9 530]

The only thing on the sole of the true boot is lining of masking tape. I doubt that was out there for the rivets.... Looks more like the tape was there for the last process. 

[Vet88 674]

7 hours ago, Zac911 said:

I don't know why.  Any reason you are not able to be scanned?

I'm overseas where there is no in country scanner. Another has posted here that where he was living in the US he couldn't get scanned but had foot casts and orthotics yet True said no to him sending them in. Previous communication I had with VH (about 2 years ago) was yes, you can send a cast and orthotics (the casts were used for my speed skates) in and we will use this to build the boot. That is the only way I will consider getting a boot built as I have odd offset heel shapes with many lumps and bumps on them.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

7 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

The only thing on the sole of the true boot is lining of masking tape. I doubt that was out there for the rivets.... Looks more like the tape was there for the last process. 

Ok, have to jump in... MASKING TAPE????  LOL...   No...  seriously...  BAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[JR Boucicaut 3797]

4 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I'm overseas where there is no in country scanner. Another has posted here that where he was living in the US he couldn't get scanned but had foot casts and orthotics yet True said no to him sending them in. Previous communication I had with VH (about 2 years ago) was yes, you can send a cast and orthotics (the casts were used for my speed skates) in and we will use this to build the boot. That is the only way I will consider getting a boot built as I have odd offset heel shapes with many lumps and bumps on them.

That's so strange.  I honestly think something was lost in translation.  Perhaps @CigarScott meant he wanted to send them the positives from the casting?  You'd have to send the negatives so that they could pour it themselves.

[Zac911 317]

3 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Ok, have to jump in... MASKING TAPE????  LOL...   No...  seriously...  BAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That's kind of how Scott operates... If something works perfectly fine... Why reinvent something?

Some companies have done very well for themselves by reinventing things and putting their name + a hashtag on it = Great Success!

Occam's Razor type thing... Often the most simple process works best.  Why over complicate things?

 

[Leif 161]

19 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

I'm not trying to knock the skate.

 

3 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Ok, have to jump in... MASKING TAPE????  LOL...   No...  seriously...  BAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Mmmm. You sure you're not trying to knock the skate? Seriously, leaving some masking tape in is not such a big deal, a trivial error.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

5 minutes ago, Leif said:

 

Mmmm. You sure you're not trying to knock the skate? Seriously, leaving some masking tape in is not such a big deal, a trivial error.

see above... not an error.  They are using masking tape to support the footbed.  I just don't get how that stands up over time.

[stick9 890]

1 hour ago, Zac911 said:

That's kind of how Scott operates... If something works perfectly fine... Why reinvent something?

Some companies have done very well for themselves by reinventing things and putting their name + a hashtag on it = Great Success!

Occam's Razor type thing... Often the most simple process works best.  Why over complicate things?

 

I get that reps may not be "in tune" with the engineering side of things. This sort of thing is just flat out lazy engineering. You obviously have the means to fix it properly but choose to take the easy way out. 

I expect more from Bauer & CCM. I expect even more than that from a company who claims they do it better then the big two.

Edited February 21, 2018 by stick9

[CigarScott 132]

3 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

That's so strange.  I honestly think something was lost in translation.  Perhaps @CigarScott meant he wanted to send them the positives from the casting?  You'd have to send the negatives so that they could pour it themselves.

I would have sent either the negative or a positive; whichever they preferred. I thought about ordering one of these kits and sending the results to them since it was something I can do at home relatively cheap: http://accu-cast.us/lifecasting-kits/foot-casting/

I just had a negative casting done by a podiatrist who is the only podiatrist in Alabama that has any experience making skate orthotics AFAIK to get some orthotics made for my Nexus skates so I'm sure I could get me hands on the negatives, if needed. I am adamant about them inspecting and trying to copy my orthotics into the foot bed of the skate due to how bad my supination is and I would rather be supported by the carbon fiber material that they use than the standard materials that are used building orthotics that will break down for me after 6-12 months.

[Sniper9 530]

2 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

see above... not an error.  They are using masking tape to support the footbed.  I just don't get how that stands up over time.

Who said anything about masking tape being there to support the footbed and or aiding in the rivets holding? The masking tape could have been used during the build process. It's kind of ridiculous you are now assuming things and making stuff up. You really are that bored aren't you. 

[Sk8Stk 39]

7 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

see above... not an error.  They are using masking tape to support the footbed.  I just don't get how that stands up over time.

masking tape is not used to hold anything together, it goes between the last and the skate during production and is then coated over. The skate is in no capacity held together by tape, and if you saw the manufacturing process you would understand. In regards to rivets, the specific instance you are quoting is referring to a customer who replaced holders multiple times, which in these instances it is pretty common to have to be a bit more precise with rivet length to ensure they do not come loose once multiple holes have been drilled / expanded in the boot. The actual shape of the carbon has been altered since Scott's 2013/14 version of the skates to provide better torsional resistance which virtually solved the rivet issue, and they also developed that insole layer a couple other fitters are referring to as an even bigger solution. I have had zero rivet issues in the last year in customers that kept their original holders and air out their skates properly, so I do not think it is fair to say True has not addressed the issues. Every time I receive a skate I see something that has been improved upon. I can not attest to the quality of other shops, but if improper rivet size is used I cant see how True is to blame for any of that. Bauer has gotten a free ride for years in terms of quality of the product they have put out vs what they are charging, if there is any skate currently on the market I would want to invest my money in, it is True. Also note, masking tape is used pretty commonly throughout the Bauer factory in Thailand, so I will echo the point that their is no need to overcomplicate things if it is not necessary / has zero influence on the manufacturing quality on the boot. 

[Larry54 243]

22 minutes ago, Sk8Stk said:

masking tape is not used to hold anything together, it goes between the last and the skate during production and is then coated over. The skate is in no capacity held together by tape, and if you saw the manufacturing process you would understand. In regards to rivets, the specific instance you are quoting is referring to a customer who replaced holders multiple times, which in these instances it is pretty common to have to be a bit more precise with rivet length to ensure they do not come loose once multiple holes have been drilled / expanded in the boot. The actual shape of the carbon has been altered since Scott's 2013/14 version of the skates to provide better torsional resistance which virtually solved the rivet issue, and they also developed that insole layer a couple other fitters are referring to as an even bigger solution. I have had zero rivet issues in the last year in customers that kept their original holders and air out their skates properly, so I do not think it is fair to say True has not addressed the issues. Every time I receive a skate I see something that has been improved upon. I can not attest to the quality of other shops, but if improper rivet size is used I cant see how True is to blame for any of that. Bauer has gotten a free ride for years in terms of quality of the product they have put out vs what they are charging, if there is any skate currently on the market I would want to invest my money in, it is True. Also note, masking tape is used pretty commonly throughout the Bauer factory in Thailand, so I will echo the point that their is no need to overcomplicate things if it is not necessary / has zero influence on the manufacturing quality on the boot. 

Just want to add that Sniper9 said that his LHS installed 2 steel rivets on the latest holder where True had installed 2 copper rivets on the original holder.

[boo10 323]

TL:DR...Bauer fanboy comes into True thread to complain that True fanboys aren't impartial.  True fanboys say shut up poopie head!

All kidding aside, True, Bauer, CCM and even Graf have positives and negatives.  Just accept that everyone has different preferences and priorities.  It's great to discuss gear and give our opinions, but stop telling people they're wrong, as it serves no purpose other than to make you look like a jerk.

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

3 hours ago, boo10 said:

TL:DR...Bauer fanboy comes into True thread to complain that True fanboys aren't impartial.  True fanboys say shut up poopie head!

All kidding aside, True, Bauer, CCM and even Graf have positives and negatives.  Just accept that everyone has different preferences and priorities.  It's great to discuss gear and give our opinions, but stop telling people they're wrong, as it serves no purpose other than to make you look like a jerk.

Been around here for along time and at my age I’ve learned some important lessons in life. One of them is that people who call others names aren’t worth my time.  

[ParabolicActivity 48]

5 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Been around here for along time and at my age I’ve learned some important lessons in life. One of them is that people who call others names aren’t worth my time.  

He's kind of politely telling you its obvious you're ruining a thread for whatever gratification it is you get from making comments that rile people up.

[Haggerty 144]

Ok, everyone get back to the topic.

[laserrobottime 149]

23 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

see above... not an error.  They are using masking tape to support the footbed.  I just don't get how that stands up over time.

I have had my VH Skates since 2013 and the outsole/midsole is covered with masking tape. I officiate at a very high level, 3-5 games per week. I (last week) had the Milwaukee equipment manager replace the first rivet on these skates for coming loose.

 

I'm only one data point, but I have not had any more rivet issues with these skates than any others.

[Sniper9 530]

3 hours ago, laserrobottime said:

I have had my VH Skates since 2013 and the outsole/midsole is covered with masking tape. I officiate at a very high level, 3-5 games per week. I (last week) had the Milwaukee equipment manager replace the first rivet on these skates for coming loose.

 

I'm only one data point, but I have not had any more rivet issues with these skates than any others.

I'm pretty sure the tape on the outsole is actually double sided tape used when aligning the holders on he boot.  

[laserrobottime 149]

45 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

I'm pretty sure the tape on the outsole is actually double sided tape used when aligning the holders on he boot.  

It's on the inside of the skate...