VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[smcgreg 81]

That's 520 grams WITHOUT holders and steel - that's compared to a Bauer X60 without holders and steel at 632 grams, but the comparison to an MLX skate at 900grams isn't fair because that's including the holders and steel. A comparison to the Mako boot without holders and steel or both skates with holders and steel would be more appropriate.

Having said that, more innovation and competition should be good for players in the end. It also seems that they're planning to offer just the boots to be mounted on your chassis of choice (either roller or ice) which is what many roller players have desired for years. I imagine these with a set of Sprungs would make for a very nice roller setup.

Yeah, but can you even get sprungs anymore? I e-mailed them with no reply a while back.

Re: weight. Funny, I got slammed a few weeks ago for arguing weight mattered. Oh well.

[althoma1 575]

Yeah, but can you even get sprungs anymore? I e-mailed them with no reply a while back.

Re: weight. Funny, I got slammed a few weeks ago for arguing weight mattered. Oh well.

I think only the A8 (large) model is in stock and can't predict the future as far as availability goes for sprungs. For those that already own the chassis or can find them used they could put them on this boot - otherwise someone would have to choose another option for a chassis. The point is a person can put whatever chassis they choose on the skates without having to first remove an ice holder.

Weight isn't everything. Fit, durability, overall performance and other attributes all play a part, but if you can save some weight on anything that goes on your extremities without sacrificing fit or too much durability then that's a good thing. Sometimes people are a little too hung up on weight though - it's better to have skates that are 100 grams heavier that fit you well then lighter skates that don't fit properly ect. and I don't think most people will notice the difference of 100g or less in practice.

[flyers10 57]

As a MLX user and now Mako owner, very intrigued about getting a custom fit VH.

[jlp15 13]

Was going to buy Makos. That's out the window. VH customs will be my next boot!

[shooter27 116]

Of course this all comes out after I bought Mako's this past weekend.

[DarkStar50 679]

"In fact, the most common feedback we hear is that the skate wraps like nothing else, which also means it is harder to get your foot into."

In fact, if you have ever seen a true speed skate boot, the fact that getting your foot into the boot is hard would not surprise you.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

^ At least I'm not a COMPLETE idiot

Don't pat yourself on the back TOO hard; nobody called you an idiot. At the time, I was told these were one-offs.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

Don't pat yourself on the back TOO hard; nobody called you an idiot. At the time, I was told these were one-offs.

I really hope that's not actually how you took that.

[Krev 86]

Of course this all comes out after I bought Mako's this past weekend.

I don't regret buying my Mako's. They still are the best fitting skates I've owned; an evolution of the MLX skate. This VH skate intrigues me, and I'll try it out when I can.

[ibeck 38]

Can we get a pic of the op of the skate JR from scott so we can see the monocomp technology?

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

I really hope that's not actually how you took that.

Yes, I did.

The conversation was way past speculation at that point, complete with a press release. You quoted yourself to bring up the fact that you guessed correctly.

I'm moving on here.

[vhfootwear 5]

Hi, I’d like to address some questions/comments that have come up regarding the VH hockey skate - hopefully I'm doing this correctly - first time.....:

Aireaye, you are right on the ball, you can do much great customization with the monocoque process, including customizing the toe box for Hallux (big toe) deformaties. Our current model has the toe box as part of the monocoque boot body. Our production model skate, down the road, will have a plastic toe cap as this allows for more consistent, streamlined mass production.

Deathtron, 520 grams is without the blade and holder, with the blade, holder,rivets etc. the weight is 765grams. This is in the ball park of the lighter Bauer and CCM models. I just wanted people to know the weight, I wasn’t trying to say this is the lightest – sorry for the confusion on that. Regarding durability, we have an impactor devise that was originally designed for testing the durability of speed skate blades, and with this apparatus we can attach a puck to the bottom of it and create the kinetic energy of a slap shot (whatever speed we want). In the early stages we used this to specifically tailor the composite layering to withstand certain impacts in certain areas dependant on the frequency of impacts in that area. Then we tested on ice. So far so good, but in a sport where a 100 mph frozen piece of rubber can potentially hit your foot in any spot it is impossible to full protect the foot and retain mold-ability and functional flex throughout the entire boot.

Neo5370, with our custom boot we can fit any foot shape. We tailor the shape of the foot last to your foot tracing.

Laserrobottime, we haven’t made a pair yet for a referee, but we certainly could. With the monocoque process we have the ability to modify the composite layering and the thermoplastic integration. Therefore, we could make the skate less stiff and with more thermoplastic. Meaning, it would be less protective and it would weigh more, but it would mold better and flex more, ultimately making it super comfortable.

Althoma1, I totally agree with your weight comment: fit and function and performance are way more important than saving 100 grams on your feet. I actually did a paper back when I was doing my graduate degree that analysed the effect of 150 grams on skating acceleration and velocity, and if I remember correctly, the effect was almost negligible for a hockey player fully suited up.

[IniNew 53]

Judging by that post, you'll be offering skates based on foot tracings?

Does that mean there will be no factory/mass production line?

[jlp15 13]

Judging by that post, you'll be offering skates based on foot tracings?

Does that mean there will be no factory/mass production line?

If you pay for customs. Not every pair will be custom

[smcgreg 81]

Judging by that post, you'll be offering skates based on foot tracings?

Does that mean there will be no factory/mass production line?

This would indicate there will be mass production

Aireaye, you are right on the ball, you can do much great customization with the monocoque process, including customizing the toe box for Hallux (big toe) deformaties. Our current model has the toe box as part of the monocoque boot body. Our production model skate, down the road, will have a plastic toe cap as this allows for more consistent, streamlined mass production.

[AIREAYE 248]

Hi, I’d like to address some questions/comments that have come up regarding the VH hockey skate - hopefully I'm doing this correctly - first time.....:

Aireaye, you are right on the ball, you can do much great customization with the monocoque process, including customizing the toe box for Hallux (big toe) deformaties. Our current model has the toe box as part of the monocoque boot body. Our production model skate, down the road, will have a plastic toe cap as this allows for more consistent, streamlined mass production.

Thanks for the insight! Having a custom toe box option on a custom boot would be good value-added feature for those looking to go that route. As someone who could be potentially selling your product to customers, I was wondering if you guys will implement some sort of educational campaign as part of your overall marketing campaign (which I assume you will have to some degree) to teach both consumers and retailers about the uniqueness of your product?

[IniNew 53]

This would indicate there will be mass production

Aireaye, you are right on the ball, you can do much great customization with the monocoque process, including customizing the toe box for Hallux (big toe) deformaties. Our current model has the toe box as part of the monocoque boot body. Our production model skate, down the road, will have a plastic toe cap as this allows for more consistent, streamlined mass production.

After re-reading, I'm guessing he means there will be a custom option, like jlp15 said.

[smcgreg 81]

After re-reading, I'm guessing he means there will be a custom option, like jlp15 said.

Actually, further up the thread, in the initial post by VH, they make reference to the fact that they plan to offer a fully custom option for ~ $1000, and a retail option that will be on par with the other top end skates. The only issue will be the timeline on the retail option, I think. I doubt VH will give you specifics on that because, as a business man, he is probably aware that timelines are fluid and once you give a hard timeline, customers are often disappointed if it doesn't materialize. Who knows though, he may chime in on that point as well.

[smcgreg 81]

Althoma1, I totally agree with your weight comment: fit and function and performance are way more important than saving 100 grams on your feet. I actually did a paper back when I was doing my graduate degree that analysed the effect of 150 grams on skating acceleration and velocity, and if I remember correctly, the effect was almost negligible for a hockey player fully suited up.

Not to belabor this point too much, but without doing any extensive calculations, we know from the running literature that for constant speed running, an additional 100 g to the weight (mass) of shoes adds approximately 1% to the Oxygen cost (O2 cost). At constant, steady state efforts, O2 cost is a good proxy and directly related to the metabolic expenditure. So, if maintaining constant speed, simply moving the boot through space would likely cost an extra 1% per 100 grams (likely more since there isn't a spring-mass component to skating like there is in running). The thing is, hockey ain't a constant, steady state effort. Hockey relies much more on anaerobic energy sources and non-constant speeds. Since anaerobic metabolism is much more costly and less efficient than aerobic metabolism, then the cost of 100 grams would be exponentially greater and impacts glycogen stores substantially more than for constant speed running. How much greater? It would take a bit of hand waving in addition to calculations. Regardless, at the top level of any sport, we know that 2 % is quite a costly difference in performance, and it is likely more than that. The difference may not be perceptible, but it is there. Anyway, I'll leave it at that at the risk of going too far afield.

[wrangler 157]

I'm a bit confused why you proffer an extrapolation based on generalities to oppose vhfootwear's conclusions in his paper, which presumably contains rational analysis based on observed data. Do you think his expressed conclusions are so far off that you don't need to review his work to disagree with it?

Or do I misunderstand, and you are accepting that the effect of the extra weight may be negligible?

Edited April 18, 2013 by wrangler

[smcgreg 81]

I'm a bit confused why you proffer an extrapolation based on generalities to oppose vhfootwear's conclusions in his paper, which presumably contains rational analysis based on observed data. Do you think his expressed conclusions are so far off that you don't need to review his work to disagree with it?

Or do I misunderstand, and you are accepting that the effect of the extra weight may be negligible?

ugghh forget it

[flip12 715]

ugghh forget it

But is there any literature on the effect of good versus bad fit? I had a terrible time finding running shoes that fit. It could be fair to say that 100 extra grams requires more energy expenditure, what about the energy expenditure of shoes that weigh the same but don't fit as well. Again in running you're not performing an activity with more than a kilogram of extra equipment on, and as Wrangler reiterates, that point is considered in SVH's original research.

I don't regret buying my Mako's. They still are the best fitting skates I've owned; an evolution of the MLX skate. This VH skate intrigues me, and I'll try it out when I can.

I'm envious of your being able to experience this evolution. I've been giddy about the speed skating influence on hockey skates since before I found out about MLX. I haven't had the chance to own either a pair of MLX's or Makos and it feels like I've missed out a bit.

[smcgreg 81]

But is there any literature on the effect of good versus bad fit? I had a terrible time finding running shoes that fit. It could be fair to say that 100 extra grams requires more energy expenditure, what about the energy expenditure of shoes that weigh the same but don't fit as well. Again in running you're not performing an activity with more than a kilogram of extra equipment on, and as Wrangler reiterates, that point is considered in SVH's original research.

I will let it go, but you should probably stop citing me. The point about using running as the point of reference is because it is actually the "best case scenario" on this issue. In other words, if it costs 1% more energy per 100 gram of shoe for running, it will be worse in hockey due to dynamic nature of the activity and the anaerobic nature of the metabolism involved. It may not be perceivable, but the effect will be there, and more evident in the 3rd rather than the 1st period since glycogen is exponentially depleted and the primary fuel source for the activity.

SVH didn't cite his original research. Saying something is inconsequential doesn't make it so without evidence. Further, if SVH wants to comment on his original research, that is fine, but I suspect he didn't model the effects of increased weight over the course of a full hockey game.

All the aforementioned being said, don't get me wrong, I have Makos and will not go back to my Tones because of the superior fit regardless of the weight. At the same time, with comparable fit, reduced weight, especially on the skate (compared to relatively static equipment on other parts of the body) will make a difference. I will also be interested in the VH skates when they are available and despite the fact I like my Makos will likely still want to give them a try. The fit on the Makos will be difficult to beat though, so, other things like weight and "comfort" will likely be important factors to consider.

[jazzyjoey 2]

Skating and running are very different movements. Lighter footware would have a greater effect on running vs skating.

Each foot spends more time in contact with the surface during a stride with a skate vs a running stride.

A 100 gram increase in sneaker weight is a much greater % increase of the total footwear weight vs skates.

There's no gliding when you're jogging or running, you're constantly lifting and moving the shoe while you're in motion.

[shooter27 116]

I would think that 100 grams would have a much greater effect in running simply from the standpoint that adding 100 grams in a running capacity is a greater addition as the percentage of total weight. Take someone that weights 100 kilos (100,000 grams) that is running and add 100 grams, you're adding 0.1% to the total weight. Now make that same person a hockey player wearing hockey equipment that weights roughly 5 kilos. That gives a total weight of 105 kilos (105,000 grams) and add 100 grams, you're adding 0.095% to the total weight. Now, obviously those are small numbers, but you're citing a running study that found a 1% increase in oxygen cost for a 0.1% (roughly, I know 100 kilos is a heavy person, but it gives a sense of order of magnitude) increase in weight. It would be my guess that a smaller increase in weight percentage wise would result in a smaller increase in oxygen cost, not a larger one. And that would mean comparing the oxygen cost of a hockey player before the additional 100 grams and after the additional 100 grams, not comparing it to a runner.