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SkateWorksPNW

Ellipse Profiles – The next revolution in skate profiling?

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So the big deal about multi-radius templates was that you could have different radii for the toes and something flatter at the heels.  With the ellipse are they saying they don’t believe that is the way to go?  Because, i have a hard time believing that the ellipse is all that much different than a single radius once it is blended from a pragmatic perspective.  It’s a symetrical radius, just an ellipse instead of a circle....

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12 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

So the big deal about multi-radius templates was that you could have different radii for the toes and something flatter at the heels.  With the ellipse are they saying they don’t believe that is the way to go?  Because, i have a hard time believing that the ellipse is all that much different than a single radius once it is blended from a pragmatic perspective.  It’s a symetrical radius, just an ellipse instead of a circle....

I believe an ellipse shape could also be rotated in such a way that when it is applied to the blade the front could be more like a circle.  The Ellipse templates look very similar in shape to the previous Quad templates so they are not symmetrical.  From my experience the Ellipse 1 feels very similar to the Quad 1.  I was able to make the switch with little to no adjustment.

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Just now, kkskate said:

I believe an ellipse shape could also be rotated in such a way that when it is applied to the blade the front could be more like a circle.  The Ellipse templates look very similar in shape to the previous Quad templates so they are not symmetrical.  From my experience the Ellipse 1 feels very similar to the Quad 1.  I was able to make the switch with little to no adjustment.

It could, but that is not what the engineer showed (why they had an engineer explaining it is beyond me...).  He showed a centered profile.  The video basically explained what an ellipse was, not how an ellipse profile is supposed to benefit the skater.

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There're not going to give you the blueprints so you can start making them yourself. You either have to skate with them, or fine someone else who can skate and give you feedback. That's what we do, we ask people to skate with profiles and give us honest feedback. I have all 3 on order, delievery should be first week of DEC.

Edited by IPv6Freely
Edited to remove spam

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2 hours ago, PUCKSTOPPROSHOPJL said:

There're not going to give you the blueprints so you can start making them yourself. You either have to skate with them, or fine someone else who can skate and give you feedback. That's what we do, we ask people to skate with profiles and give us honest feedback. I have all 3 on order, delievery should be first week of DEC.

Wow..... I'm with @BenBreeg show me how ita better. Don't tell me it is and that's all there is to it.  

Edited by IPv6Freely
Edited to remove spam
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1 hour ago, kkskate said:

How else would you describe transitions being a bit better?

I for one don't feel a "lack of smoothness" with either the Zuperior or Quad.

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1 hour ago, kkskate said:

How else would you describe transitions being a bit better?

What Mojo said.  It’s not like they have a scalloped profile where each radius butts against the other on a quad.  There is an easement between each radius.  Don’t have an engineer tell what an ellipse is!  Tell me how an ellipse benefits my skating.

There are too many profiles IMO.  The only way that works is if you have a very educated buyer or consistently educated retailer to guide that buyer to the right profile.  And given how expensive profiling is if you were to try out a bunch through trial and error, the chances of landing on an optimal choice seems very low.

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45 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

What Mojo said.  It’s not like they have a scalloped profile where each radius butts against the other on a quad.  There is an easement between each radius.  Don’t have an engineer tell what an ellipse is!  Tell me how an ellipse benefits my skating.

There are too many profiles IMO.  The only way that works is if you have a very educated buyer or consistently educated retailer to guide that buyer to the right profile.  And given how expensive profiling is if you were to try out a bunch through trial and error, the chances of landing on an optimal choice seems very low.

Based on skating on the Ellipse my observation was that transitions were a bit improved.  I've skated on the Quad 1 for years.  Without specifications it would be hard to pinpoint why.  The Ellipse I seemed very similar to the Quad 1.  Given the similarities, if I had to guess it's meant more as a replacement for the Quads rather than an addition to the list of profiles.  This of course is just my opinion.

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Just a guess.

If the quad(0,1,2) usually jump by three like 7-10-13-16 ie.

The quad 0.5 jump by two like 8-10-12-14

The elliptical probably jumps by one.  So 7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16. ie.  So when you make this way it basicly turns it to a elliptical.

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16 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

What Mojo said.  It’s not like they have a scalloped profile where each radius butts against the other on a quad.  There is an easement between each radius.  Don’t have an engineer tell what an ellipse is!  Tell me how an ellipse benefits my skating.

There are too many profiles IMO.  The only way that works is if you have a very educated buyer or consistently educated retailer to guide that buyer to the right profile.  And given how expensive profiling is if you were to try out a bunch through trial and error, the chances of landing on an optimal choice seems very low.

That's precisely what the Prosharp Project was supposed to address. We all had an amazing opportunity to dial in a profile for far less than it would cost otherwise. It's a shame more people didn't take advantage of it.

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32 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

That's precisely what the Prosharp Project was supposed to address. We all had an amazing opportunity to dial in a profile for far less than it would cost otherwise. It's a shame more people didn't take advantage of it.

I would have, but shipping to and from Europe would have been too expensive for me. I think that kind of program is the future of profiling.

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39 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

That's precisely what the Prosharp Project was supposed to address. We all had an amazing opportunity to dial in a profile for far less than it would cost otherwise. It's a shame more people didn't take advantage of it.

Yep, wish I was set up to take advantage of it before it ended.

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I am likely going to have to send out some steel to test these out in person it seems. I won't invest in buying these templates until I know specifically more about the design changes, benefits, and such. 

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Been out of the loop for a while, saw this thread and have a few comments.

I have tried the quads ( Thanks JR ) and initially asked about how the different radii were "blended".

Never got much of an answer so being a part time machinist I mounted a Quad 1 up in the mill

and swept it. On my blades you could pick up the transitions to the different radii but the

change was so subtle I can't believe even the best skater's would be able to feel it.

I'm talking numbers is the .002 to .004 inch range spread over about .500 to .700 length of

blade.

My GUESS is the new profile is  continuously varying with the subtle transitions gone.

I'd bet in blind taste tests about 3 out of a hundred skaters could tell it apart.

I've been wrong before!!!

Dave

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6 hours ago, Dave P said:

Been out of the loop for a while, saw this thread and have a few comments.

I have tried the quads ( Thanks JR ) and initially asked about how the different radii were "blended".

Never got much of an answer so being a part time machinist I mounted a Quad 1 up in the mill

and swept it. On my blades you could pick up the transitions to the different radii but the

change was so subtle I can't believe even the best skater's would be able to feel it.

I'm talking numbers is the .002 to .004 inch range spread over about .500 to .700 length of

blade.

My GUESS is the new profile is  continuously varying with the subtle transitions gone.

I'd bet in blind taste tests about 3 out of a hundred skaters could tell it apart.

I've been wrong before!!!

Dave

I should work with you to get some demo templates I want to manufacture 🙂 

Edited by SkateWorksPNW

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24 minutes ago, Dave P said:

Been out of the loop for a while, saw this thread and have a few comments.

I have tried the quads ( Thanks JR ) and initially asked about how the different radii were "blended".

Never got much of an answer so being a part time machinist I mounted a Quad 1 up in the mill

and swept it. On my blades you could pick up the transitions to the different radii but the

change was so subtle I can't believe even the best skater's would be able to feel it.

I'm talking numbers is the .002 to .004 inch range spread over about .500 to .700 length of

blade.

My GUESS is the new profile is  continuously varying with the subtle transitions gone.

I'd bet in blind taste tests about 3 out of a hundred skaters could tell it apart.

I've been wrong before!!!

Dave

When discussing profiles the variances are very subtle and in the range you're describing.  Prosharp addressed this in one of their recent videos.  I tried to link to the specific section below where they give an example.  That said, your description is probably too far off from the truth.  I have noticed some variances in the sections of the Ellipse templates from the Quads though they are small.  If you're on a Quad I'd probably go with the Ellipse going forward.  If you're already on a Quad and happy it may not be justifiable to re-profile unless you're just curious to feel the differences yourself.

 

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If that is the issue, the blending, then why not just redo the Quads and change the easement between sections?  That is not enough of an explanation IMO.  Solution in search of a problem?

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I have some steel in the mail and @kkskate is going to profile each set with a different Elliptical profile. I'm going to have them done as "blind testing" so they will just be marked as Set 1, Set 2, and Set 3. I can then test them out and see how I like them. 

I also have the Quad 0, Quad 1 and Quad 2 at home. I'll also have these marked by a friend randomly so I don't know what is what. 

My control set will be a Zuperior M, Standard Bauer LS5, and a standard Step Stainless. The LS5 and Step have been checked for accuracy rating, making sure they are indeed 10' radius. 

I was going to add Flare to the mix but since I love their steel.so much I think it would just be unfair to put it up against anything else. 

Edited by SkateWorksPNW

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3 minutes ago, jgold47 said:

254

I skate on True with 254 holders.  My blades have the Ellipse 1 profile and the Quad 1 before that.  The Ellipse Zero is good also though I prefer the extra stability of the Quad 1/Ellipse 1.

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3 minutes ago, kkskate said:

I skate on True with 254 holders.  My blades have the Ellipse 1 profile and the Quad 1 before that.  The Ellipse Zero is good also though I prefer the extra stability of the Quad 1/Ellipse 1.

Same.  Although if I get a new profile I’ll do it w/new XS holders. I’m on the older true holder and it’s hard to find steel.  
 

thanks for the heads up that it works. The zeros should be no problem then.  

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