64" extended length sticks and flex

[Sniper9 529]

I'm looking at sticks on hockeystickman.ca and the only flex and curve option I want comes in the 64" extended length. 

I was wondering if the extended sticks' flex rating is tested at the same length as standard 59/60" sticks or whether the flex is rated at the longer length. I cut about 1-1.5" off a standard 60" stick and didn't want the 64 to feel stiffer after it's been chopped down 5". 

And for those who say stick flex never changes, I'm not here to argue with you about that topic. I'm just asking whether the sticks are tested at the same spot for flex regardless of length. 

 

Tia

[mojo122 535]

I've been told in the past that retail Bauer sticks like the 2X Pro that are longer have the flex measured at 60", so if cut to 60" the flex stays the same.  Can't speak for other manufacturers or pro stock sticks.

[Vet88 674]

The distance the stick is measured over for the flex rating doesn't change for an extended stick. Stock height or extended, they all go on the flex machine with the same distance between the arms. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Vet88

[Sniper9 529]

Thanks guys. This was reiterated by hockeystickman too. 

[YesLanges 127]

The shorter the stick is cut, the higher its true flex rating will be. That's simple physics that's actually so simple, it's just common sense. I've found that plugs (wooden ones, at least) definitely change the flex and shooting characteristics. That also makes sense, simply because you're replacing some of the more flexible composite material with much less flexible wood. The exact spot of greatest flex will also change for (what should be) similarly obvious related reasons. The sticks may all go onto the flex machine at the same place; but nobody holds the stick at the places where the flex machine holds them: the flex machine simply provides a standardized way of comparing the flex of sticks; but I'd be surprised to find out that one of the contact points is above the plug insert point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the flex machine measures where on the stick the deflection first hits the 1" mark; it probably just measures the amount of flex necessary for any part of the shaft to deflect 1". I believe that point can't be the same with a plug if your hand is above that cut line, which it obviously is.

Edited August 31, 2021 by YesLanges

[Left Wing King 50]

14 hours ago, YesLanges said:

The shorter the stick is cut, the higher its true flex rating will be. That's simple physics that's actually so simple, it's just common sense. I've found that plugs (wooden ones, at least) definitely change the flex and shooting characteristics. That also makes sense, simply because you're replacing some of the more flexible composite material with much less flexible wood. The exact spot of greatest flex will also change for (what should be) similarly obvious related reasons. The sticks may all go onto the flex machine at the same place; but nobody holds the stick at the places where the flex machine holds them: the flex machine simply provides a standardized way of comparing the flex of sticks; but I'd be surprised to find out that one of the contact points is above the plug insert point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the flex machine measures where on the stick the deflection first hits the 1" mark; it probably just measures the amount of flex necessary for any part of the shaft to deflect 1". I believe that point can't be the same with a plug if your hand is above that cut line, which it obviously is.

I remember seeing a vid from True debunking this.

[start_today 770]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:48 AM, Sniper9 said:

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by start_today
Jesus, I suck at the internet, sorry.

[start_today 770]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:48 AM, Sniper9 said:

And for those who say stick flex never changes, I'm not here to argue with you about that topic. I'm just asking whether the sticks are tested at the same spot for flex regardless of length. 

 

[boo10 323]

2 hours ago, Left Wing King said:

I remember seeing a vid from True debunking this.

I'm not sure what video that would be but True cannot debunk the laws of physics.  The longer the lever the less force is required to induce deflection.  It doesn't actually change how stiff something is, but it does change how easy it is to bend that thing.  That's the sole reason that breaker bars exist.

[YesLanges 127]

1 hour ago, boo10 said:

I'm not sure what video that would be but True cannot debunk the laws of physics.  The longer the lever the less force is required to induce deflection.  It doesn't actually change how stiff something is, but it does change how easy it is to bend that thing.  That's the sole reason that breaker bars exist.

Exactly.

[flip12 714]

I'm interested to see that video.

There is a major difference in anchor points between flex testing at the factory and flex in use.

The testing setup looks like if you held out your arms in front of you, put the stick on your forearms and had a buddy push down on the shaft beneath your nose until it flexed 1". This would likely leave nasty bruises on all flesh involved, so don't try this at home.

The actual impression of flex in use is how hard it feels to flex the stick when you hold it at the top, press it into the ice at the bottom and apply the load force somewhere in between those two points. Those distances change with cutting, plugging, and hand position, which affects the force equation.

If you take a cut stick and an uncut stick and they're the same flex rating, they should perform the same in the factory test unless you cut so much off that the force position has to change. There was that interesting variable flex testing done on all the current sticks about 5-6 years ago that showed how much easier or harder it was to flex the same stick in different zones.

That's my best guess.

[krisdrum 233]

Believe this is the one being referenced:

 

[boo10 323]

3 hours ago, krisdrum said:

Believe this is the one being referenced:

 

Wow he really could have explained that better, so easy to see how it would confuse someone. 

In other words he said, a 66" stick with a flex rating of 85 will still have a flex rating of 85 after you cut it to 58".  It will however take more effort to flex the stick after it has been cut, (shorter lever).  Therefore that 66"/85 flex stick cut to 58" will be identical to a stick manufactured to a 58" length with a flex rating of 85.

Edited September 1, 2021 by boo10

[Larry54 243]

In a nutshell, if you have a 66"/85flex stick and a 60"/85flex stick, and cut both to 58" they will feel the same.

[YesLanges 127]

13 hours ago, krisdrum said:

Believe this is the one being referenced:

 

This video is full of facts that are true in isolation but totally irrelevant, wrong in context, and misleading, along with some strawman arguments.

Nobody is claiming that cutting a stick shorter "changes" the material farther down the stick. This is a strawman argument. Sticks of different lengths will measure identical ratings simply because the machine holds the stick at the same two points regardless of how long the whole (rest of the) stick is. The flex rating is nothing but a reference tool that can't take into account where players' hands actually are on the stick during use. It's simply a measurement intended to provide a way for players to compare stiffness of the difference in materials that determine how hard sticks are to flex. He even admits that a stick will be harder to flex after it's cut shorter; but he then goes back to saying that the flex rating doesn't change. The only place it doesn't change is on the machine because of where the machine holds it. Players don't care about that; players care about whether the same stick is stiffer and harder to flex with the same hand positioning if it's cut shorter. The shorter it's cut the stiffer and harder to flex it will be in your hands.

If this isn't obvious to you, all you have to do is imagine two sticks made of identical composite material rated at 100 lbs of flex where one stick is 6 feet long and the other is 100 feet long. Does anybody think you could possibly place a 100-lb weight right in the middle of the 100' stick without it snapping instantly? That same 100 lbs placed in the middle of a 6' stick will only bend it 1." They're both "rated" at 100 lbs because they're held by the machine at the same points. A longer stick will always be easier to bend in the middle by the same amount of weight than a shorter stick made of material with identical properties and characteristics.  

Some manufacturers even print a guide on the last 8" or so of their sticks, with different flex ratings next to the length in inches indicating what the flex will be if you cut it to specific lengths corresponding to those flex ratings.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by YesLanges

[marka 526]

Howdy,

13 hours ago, Larry54 said:

In a nutshell, if you have a 66"/85flex stick and a 60"/85flex stick, and cut both to 58" they will feel the same.

This one.  Well, assuming they were both rated on a tester that uses two points on the stick the same distance apart (and probably same general location on the stick).

I think the issue here is that people use flex ratings for two different purposes...

One is as a way to know which stick to buy.  "Today I used a 70 flex stick.  I want to buy a new stick and I want to know how it will flex as compared to my current stick, with both of them cut to a similar length".  That one is pretty easy, assuming both sticks are measured the same way... A 70 flex 60" stick will feel the same as a 70 flex 65" stick AFTER THEY ARE BOTH CUT TO THE SAME LENGTH.

The other way, is "I'm changing the length of my stick.  What flex do I want to buy so that at my new length, the stick will flex the same amount / more / less?"  That's when all the stuff about "cutting the stick reduces leverage" comes in.  The confusion comes in when folks talk about that "changing the flex"... Kinda, not really.  If you define the flex like manufacturers seem to as "how much the stick deflects when put in the test machine with fixed points" then clearly you're not "changing the flex".  You're changing how much leverage you have.

I don't think Bauer or whoever it was helped this when the marketing dept. put lines with new flex ratings at the end of their stick to help folks know how much less leverage they'd have when they cut their stick down.

_My_ question would be if anyone has ever compared the machines/procedures used by the different manufacturers to see if CCM uses reference points 48" apart while Bauer uses points 50" apart, etc.  That would actually be really nice to know so that flex ratings between different stick models/manufacturers could be reasonably compared.

Mark

[Larry54 243]

14 minutes ago, marka said:

Howdy,

This one.  Well, assuming they were both rated on a tester that uses two points on the stick the same distance apart (and probably same general location on the stick).

I think the issue here is that people use flex ratings for two different purposes...

One is as a way to know which stick to buy.  "Today I used a 70 flex stick.  I want to buy a new stick and I want to know how it will flex as compared to my current stick, with both of them cut to a similar length".  That one is pretty easy, assuming both sticks are measured the same way... A 70 flex 60" stick will feel the same as a 70 flex 65" stick AFTER THEY ARE BOTH CUT TO THE SAME LENGTH.

The other way, is "I'm changing the length of my stick.  What flex do I want to buy so that at my new length, the stick will flex the same amount / more / less?"  That's when all the stuff about "cutting the stick reduces leverage" comes in.  The confusion comes in when folks talk about that "changing the flex"... Kinda, not really.  If you define the flex like manufacturers seem to as "how much the stick deflects when put in the test machine with fixed points" then clearly you're not "changing the flex".  You're changing how much leverage you have.

I don't think Bauer or whoever it was helped this when the marketing dept. put lines with new flex ratings at the end of their stick to help folks know how much less leverage they'd have when they cut their stick down.

_My_ question would be if anyone has ever compared the machines/procedures used by the different manufacturers to see if CCM uses reference points 48" apart while Bauer uses points 50" apart, etc.  That would actually be really nice to know so that flex ratings between different stick models/manufacturers could be reasonably compared.

Mark

Call me cynical, but maybe manufacturers feel that it's preferable not to disclose that information because then some people would start making their own measurements according to those parameters and reveal how much error there was in the flex ratings. Manufacturers don't really have anything to gain from it.

[puckpilot 312]

6 hours ago, Larry54 said:

Call me cynical, but maybe manufacturers feel that it's preferable not to disclose that information because then some people would start making their own measurements according to those parameters and reveal how much error there was in the flex ratings. Manufacturers don't really have anything to gain from it.

I'm cynical, too. IMHO, it's in the best interest of manufacturers to keep things opaque and maybe even a little confusing. If the public in general doesn't understand how to make a reasonable oranges to oranges comparison between two sticks it can be good for the bottom line. How many of us have bought a stick, and it just didn't work for us? That stick either ends up gathering dust in a corner, or we treat it like crap in the hopes it breaks soon, so we have an excuse to get a new stick. 

For interest's sake. A while back I found this video of a flex tester made by a engineering student. Honestly, as someone who is extremely picky about how a stick flexes, I wouldn't mind owning one.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by puckpilot

[Sniper9 529]

On 8/31/2021 at 4:11 PM, YesLanges said:

The shorter the stick is cut, the higher its true flex rating will be. That's simple physics that's actually so simple, it's just common sense. I've found that plugs (wooden ones, at least) definitely change the flex and shooting characteristics. That also makes sense, simply because you're replacing some of the more flexible composite material with much less flexible wood. The exact spot of greatest flex will also change for (what should be) similarly obvious related reasons. The sticks may all go onto the flex machine at the same place; but nobody holds the stick at the places where the flex machine holds them: the flex machine simply provides a standardized way of comparing the flex of sticks; but I'd be surprised to find out that one of the contact points is above the plug insert point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the flex machine measures where on the stick the deflection first hits the 1" mark; it probably just measures the amount of flex necessary for any part of the shaft to deflect 1". I believe that point can't be the same with a plug if your hand is above that cut line, which it obviously is.

So your post basically touched on what I said I didn't need to know, since I already get that aspect. But thanks. 

[YesLanges 127]

5 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

So your post basically touched on what I said I didn't need to know, since I already get that aspect. But thanks. 

I addressed your question in my first 3 sentences of my first response. I agree with you that the flex obviously can't be the same in a cut stick, and while you didn't want to discuss that with anybody who believes the opposite, I don't mind having that discussion; and I figured you have sufficient control over your own eyes not to continue reading beyond my first 3 sentences if you didn't want to and that it would be OK to address the opposite belief for anybody else reading this thread. My apologies.

[Sniper9 529]

12 hours ago, YesLanges said:

I addressed your question in my first 3 sentences of my first response. I agree with you that the flex obviously can't be the same in a cut stick, and while you didn't want to discuss that with anybody who believes the opposite, I don't mind having that discussion; and I figured you have sufficient control over your own eyes not to continue reading beyond my first 3 sentences if you didn't want to and that it would be OK to address the opposite belief for anybody else reading this thread. My apologies.

You didn't address my question. My question was whether the 64" stick is tested at the same sites for flex as the 60".  Ie, are all sticks' flex, regardless of total manufactured length tested at the exact same spot. 

 

The first post by @mojo122 answered my question. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Sniper9

[quick_dry 1]

On 9/2/2021 at 11:18 PM, puckpilot said:

I'm cynical, too. IMHO, it's in the best interest of manufacturers to keep things opaque and maybe even a little confusing. If the public in general doesn't understand how to make a reasonable oranges to oranges comparison between two sticks it can be good for the bottom line. How many of us have bought a stick, and it just didn't work for us? That stick either ends up gathering dust in a corner, or we treat it like crap in the hopes it breaks soon, so we have an excuse to get a new stick. 

For interest's sake. A while back I found this video of a flex tester made by a engineering student. Honestly, as someone who is extremely picky about how a stick flexes, I wouldn't mind owning one.

 

(sorry for thread resurrection) nice, I did a similar thing when a shop was insisting nothing was up with a fairly fresh stick. I didn't use load cells or measuring between the arms, just g-clamps and hung weights off the heel to show the difference in deflection at a similar weight (all sticks cut to same length and using same lenght 'lever' arm). Most sticks of same design and flex were the same, but you could also see the difference in the 'bad' one. I don't care about flex between those two points, if there is a fault/"soft spot" in the carbon in the taper section fpr instance, what use is knowing flex between 2 spots around the midpoint.