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Hidious

"Old" man hates change and the stick market seems completely different 10 years later. Help. (old T90, Easton Drury!?))

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Hi, I'm really hoping there are some old timers around to share a few tips. Quick recap:

I bought a batch of SBK Black Angels for an insane price when the business closed down, which I believe was between 10 to 15 years ago. Nice sticks, they were exactly what I wanted back then. The last few survivors of this batch have recently gone a bit soft and I felt it was time to move on. Went to the LHS thinking I was going to get in, find a decently priced Easton Drury variation, and get out. To my stupefaction, the young salesmen there, which seem to be quite competent btw, were looking at me like I was some kind of alien from Guy Lafleur's era. I was describing the curve, the classic you know, and there was no such thing on the market according to them. They were right, I couldn't find anything that felt right in the thousands of sticks in inventory. A lot of them, I simply grab and immediately knew that it it wouldn't work due to the rounded edges of the shaft or their crazy lightweight that makes it feel like you have nothing in your hands. After hours of  disbelief and confusion, an older employee (he was still quite young haha) came in and explained that only pro stock offerings could possibly have what I was looking for. He was right, and I found a CCM Jetspeed Team that seemed to have the right curve, with a boxy shaft. Pro stocks are cheaper than retail? Perfect. The stick is all right, nothing more, but here comes the kicker: I took out an old Sher-wood T90 from the closet, which I believe was the very first version of it (I bought it before my SBKs) and started ripping absolutely crazy shots from everywhere on the ice. I've played with these guys for many years and I am not known for my lethal shot, so everyone was a bit stunned, especially the goalies. My inner Ovie had been unleashed. I know this is somewhat of a honeymoon period, but I want more of that. My questions are:

  • Why can't I seem to find any traces of this stick searching the interwebs? All the T90s that I see, even those labeled Gen 1, are all black and mine is mostly white. What year is it from?
  • Sam thing goes for the PP20 DR pattern. It does not seem to exist anywhere, at all. Why are there so few results when searching for this specific pattern? I mean it existed at some point, since when does the internet "forget" ?
  • Are the modern T90s sold these days similar in quality to the one I have? I have read some comments that the "quality has gone downhill" with each new version.
  • Any recommendations? I can't fathom the thought that the good old easton Drury is a thing of the past. I have zero interest in trying other curves.

Thanks in advance, please take a look at the pics below.

Oh and by the way, I am not that old (34), but It sure seems like things have changed a lot in a decade. I am still rocking Easton Synergy 1500C skates with Tuuks bought on eBay, a relic from the times when you didn't really have to bake your skates in an oven. I heard that even the entry level skates are now molded in the oven by default. Crazy stuff. 

uc?export=download&id=15sEcQHzEibA1znsQD

uc?export=download&id=1ap8iFsTv61lw5ELOu

uc?export=download&id=1xo6jHXL0rGa6q0FUo

Edited by Hidious
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Yeah, for current retail curves, you have your choice of anything you want, as long as it’s a p92, p88, or p28. Companies have drastically cut down on offerings to reduce over stock and make production less expensive.  

People on here really like the company Pro Stock Hockey Sticks. It’s not actual prostock stuff, but custom sticks that you can get with a lot of unique curves, including the beloved Drury. They even have an option for stick build that’s billed as being “classic Easton.”

https://prostockhockeysticks.com

The guy who runs it is an absolute stick nerd and has dialed in a lot of aspects, and seems to do this out of love and fandom. He’s not just some tech dad trying to make beer money selling bulk sticks out of his garage  

There are other internet companies that offer this cheaper custom option, but they have mixed reviews. And by mixed I mean mostly bad, except for people whose number one priority is price. 

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Hey thanks a lot, I didn't know about this website. Out of curiosity, do you know what these p92, p88 and p28 curves are equivalent to? One of the those has to be the Sakic, right? For sure the Lidstrom was phased out, I haven't seen a square edged toe in forever.

Edited by Hidious
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P92 is Sakic, and the other 2 didn't exist until towards the end of Easton. P88 was called e36 and p28 was called e28 or kreps

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Easton never had a P88 at retail. P36 was something similar but still different. True still has the Lidstrom but it’s probably not frequently stocked. They call it the HCS. HCR is their Drury.

P28 is a modified Drury, but the toe alterations throw a lot of people off, especially the aggressive rocker, but the toe pocket can also get in the way. It’s meant to function as both a heel and a toe curve, but managing both types on one blade can be tricky. It’s probably not going to be a good time for someone who’s a dedicated Drury user and averse to change.

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23 hours ago, BigT said:

P92 is Sakic.

Meh, sort of. The P92 was always Bauer take on the Sakic, never a one for one clone. The original Sakic, and Hall for that matter, wasnt as open as the 92 and it was an standard 5 lie. The rocker may have been different as well.

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I go back and forth between Drury pro stocks and P28 these days.  The adjustment isn’t that bad since the lie and side profile on both are almost identical but I prefer the Drury overall as I’ve used it since 2002 or so.

We’re about the same age fwiw - long live heel curves!

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Odd that Pro Stock Hockey Sticks .com aren't really Pro Stock sticks. They're designing and manufacturing on their own?

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, flip12 said:

P28 is a modified Drury, but the toe alterations throw a lot of people off, especially the aggressive rocker, but the toe pocket can also get in the way. It’s meant to function as both a heel and a toe curve, but managing both types on one blade can be tricky. It’s probably not going to be a good time for someone who’s a dedicated Drury user and averse to change.

Not trying to start an argument, but I'm not sure that's how I'd describe the p28. I use the p28 and it's pretty much a flat blade at the heel. There's no curve back there, and I only use that part of the blade to stickhandle. You don't have to take my word for it. Here's a couple of videos of the guy who created the curve describing how it's intended to be used.

 

 

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16 hours ago, stick9 said:

Meh, sort of. The P92 was always Bauer take on the Sakic, never a one for one clone. The original Sakic, and Hall for that matter, wasnt as open as the 92 and it was an standard 5 lie. The rocker may have been different as well.

Sakic was a 6 lie. Or at least a lot higher than the Modano, which was Easton’s 5, and a bit higher than the Drury, which was 5.5.

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28 minutes ago, flip12 said:

Sakic was a 6 lie. Or at least a lot higher than the Modano, which was Easton’s 5, and a bit higher than the Drury, which was 5.5.

If that's true then the rocker was definitely different or Easton's lie numbers didn't align Bauer's. I had issues with pucks sliding underneath the toe on P92's which is why I stopped using them. I never had that with Sakic's, Hall's or even Warrior Drapers.

Edited by stick9
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That could be. I had that issue with my Sakic Synergy, so I never tried the other variants. Though, it may be I wasn’t losing it under just the toe but the middle of the blade as well. It’s a long time ago, but that’s when I first appreciated the effect lie can have.

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On 4/30/2022 at 7:15 AM, Hidious said:

Hi, I'm really hoping there are some old timers around to share a few tips. Quick recap:

I bought a batch of SBK Black Angels for an insane price when the business closed down, which I believe was between 10 to 15 years ago. Nice sticks, they were exactly what I wanted back then. The last few survivors of this batch have recently gone a bit soft and I felt it was time to move on. Went to the LHS thinking I was going to get in, find a decently priced Easton Drury variation, and get out. To my stupefaction, the young salesmen there, which seem to be quite competent btw, were looking at me like I was some kind of alien from Guy Lafleur's era. I was describing the curve, the classic you know, and there was no such thing on the market according to them. They were right, I couldn't find anything that felt right in the thousands of sticks in inventory. A lot of them, I simply grab and immediately knew that it it wouldn't work due to the rounded edges of the shaft or their crazy lightweight that makes it feel like you have nothing in your hands. After hours of  disbelief and confusion, an older employee (he was still quite young haha) came in and explained that only pro stock offerings could possibly have what I was looking for. He was right, and I found a CCM Jetspeed Team that seemed to have the right curve, with a boxy shaft. Pro stocks are cheaper than retail? Perfect. The stick is all right, nothing more, but here comes the kicker: I took out an old Sher-wood T90 from the closet, which I believe was the very first version of it (I bought it before my SBKs) and started ripping absolutely crazy shots from everywhere on the ice. I've played with these guys for many years and I am not known for my lethal shot, so everyone was a bit stunned, especially the goalies. My inner Ovie had been unleashed. I know this is somewhat of a honeymoon period, but I want more of that. My questions are:

  • Why can't I seem to find any traces of this stick searching the interwebs? All the T90s that I see, even those labeled Gen 1, are all black and mine is mostly white. What year is it from?
  • Sam thing goes for the PP20 DR pattern. It does not seem to exist anywhere, at all. Why are there so few results when searching for this specific pattern? I mean it existed at some point, since when does the internet "forget" ?
  • Are the modern T90s sold these days similar in quality to the one I have? I have read some comments that the "quality has gone downhill" with each new version.
  • Any recommendations? I can't fathom the thought that the good old easton Drury is a thing of the past. I have zero interest in trying other curves.

Thanks in advance, please take a look at the pics below.

Oh and by the way, I am not that old (34), but It sure seems like things have changed a lot in a decade. I am still rocking Easton Synergy 1500C skates with Tuuks bought on eBay, a relic from the times when you didn't really have to bake your skates in an oven. I heard that even the entry level skates are now molded in the oven by default. Crazy stuff. 

 

Old curves usually are hard to find as no one uses last names anymore. It's all code now.

Best is to know what features the blade you like: lie (4, 5, 5.5, 6, 7, etc.), curve placement (heel, mid-heel, mid, mid-toe, toe), curve face (open, closed), toe shape (round, square), curve depth (3/8", 1/2") and then find a curve with those features.

Easton-Blade-Chart-2011-SR-INT.jpg

 

 

POPULAR
PATTERN
BAUER CCM / REEBOK EASTON FISCHER SHERWOOD WARRIOR TRUE
SAKIC P92 / P92M
Matthews
P19 / P29 / P29M E3
Hall
19 PP26
Stastny
W03
Henrique
TC2
DRURY P91A
Staal
P6 / P15 E6
Parise
32 PP20
DR
W05
Granlund
HCR
Edited by caveman27

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Count me as a fan of the older P88 Sakic vs the newer P92's.  

Did the older P92's from the One95 era have a different lie?

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17 hours ago, puckpilot said:

Not trying to start an argument, but I'm not sure that's how I'd describe the p28. I use the p28 and it's pretty much a flat blade at the heel. There's no curve back there, and I only use that part of the blade to stickhandle. You don't have to take my word for it. Here's a couple of videos of the guy who created the curve describing how it's intended to be used.

It's not an argument if we can keep it civil. I'm all for, "Really?" "What do you mean?" Etc. Good old days discussion, which the internet seems to be slowly annihilating...

For the sake of discussion I made this composite image to better show my description. Believe me, I know the looks of things can be deceiving when handling a highly complex 3D object with compound curves on all sides. Reducing it to 2D can help with isolating single facets of these diamond-like geometries:

8ZLCiqB.png

If we can agree that the Drury is a heel curve, then so is the Kreps (X28). It's just as curved at the heel. When you compare this with the other facets of the Drury, it's easier to see the overall similarity.

f3rGJkU.png

When I did this the first time in person, it was an E28 to E6 (original Drury) side-by-side, and I swear I recall the faces lining up even more than this W28 to W03 does. Seeing all of the similarities stack up, I had to believe the E28 is a modified Drury. It's too eerily similar in all ways to be anything else in my mind.

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18 hours ago, 218hockey said:

Odd that Pro Stock Hockey Sticks .com aren't really Pro Stock sticks. They're designing and manufacturing on their own?

 

 

 

 I'd be shocked if they did either on their own. They sort of seem like a middle man to me. You know, take the orders then order from a manufacturer in china and ship to the customer when they arrive. 

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22 hours ago, 218hockey said:

Odd that Pro Stock Hockey Sticks .com aren't really Pro Stock sticks. They're designing and manufacturing on their own?

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, stick9 said:

 I'd be shocked if they did either on their own. They sort of seem like a middle man to me. You know, take the orders then order from a manufacturer in china and ship to the customer when they arrive. 

The purpose of Geppetto's business was not to sell Pro Stock hockey sticks made for the pros, but rather get sticks into the consumer's hands that have Pro Stock specs, for instance if you're a righty that wants to try Patty Kane's curve, your only hope previous was to hope a pro righty used it as well, and in your preferred flex. With Prostockhockeysticks you're able to order a twig with a lot of customization in small batches. He's taken on the cost of making the molds for left & right versions of many different pro's curves, to make them available to the avg consumer. BTW they're great twigs for the price & and has allowed me to dial in my flex, shooting & stickhandling...I even use different specs depending on if I'm playing defence or forward.

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4 hours ago, Gswift said:

 

The purpose of Geppetto's business was not to sell Pro Stock hockey sticks made for the pros, but rather get sticks into the consumer's hands that have Pro Stock specs, for instance if you're a righty that wants to try Patty Kane's curve, your only hope previous was to hope a pro righty used it as well, and in your preferred flex. With Prostockhockeysticks you're able to order a twig with a lot of customization in small batches. He's taken on the cost of making the molds for left & right versions of many different pro's curves, to make them available to the avg consumer. BTW they're great twigs for the price & and has allowed me to dial in my flex, shooting & stickhandling...I even use different specs depending on if I'm playing defence or forward.

Agreed. I ordered a batch and while they don't have the performance of my trusty FT3 Pros, for the money and options they allow you to customize, they really can't be beat. Great sticks.

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14 hours ago, flip12 said:

Drury is a heel curve, then so is the Kreps (X28). It's just as curved at the heel. When you compare this with the other facets of the Drury, it's easier to see the overall similarity.

When I did this the first time in person, it was an E28 to E6 (original Drury) side-by-side, and I swear I recall the faces lining up even more than this W28 to W03 does. Seeing all of the similarities stack up, I had to believe the E28 is a modified Drury. It's too eerily similar in all ways to be anything else in my mind.

I can definitely see how you're drawing your conclusion. But IMHO, it can be difficult to pick out differences because in a static image broad-stroke similarities blend together and wash out the subtle differences. I went to this website Blade Pattern charts and used pics from there to make an animated gif flickering between a p6 and p28 to see if the differences became more apparent.

Judge for your self, but to me, it looks like the p28 is straight at the heel. This is most apparent when we focus on the top edges of each blade and see how they differ. And this is consistent with my experiences with the p28. Whenever the pucks is on the heel--this is obviously subjective--but there doesn't feel like there's any curve to work with back there.  And with the backhand, there's feels like there's more blade to work with when compared to my previous curve the p29.

 

ucnNHd1.gif

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, puckpilot said:

I can definitely see how you're drawing your conclusion. But IMHO, it can be difficult to pick out differences because in a static image broad-stroke similarities blend together and wash out the subtle differences. I went to this website Blade Pattern charts and used pics from there to make an animated gif flickering between a p6 and p28 to see if the differences became more apparent.

Judge for your self, but to me, it looks like the p28 is straight at the heel. This is most apparent when we focus on the top edges of each blade and see how they differ. And this is consistent with my experiences with the p28. Whenever the pucks is on the heel--this is obviously subjective--but there doesn't feel like there's any curve to work with back there.  And with the backhand, there's feels like there's more blade to work with when compared to my previous curve the p29.

I get your point, but the gif is misleading, not because of anything you did, but because of the photos themselves: the offset between the blades and the subpar lighting washes out the nuances of these complex (even the Drury) geometries. There's even the issue of which Drury: P6 has more kink to it, which is clear when you compare P6 and W05:

ahoGmSm.png

The blade face difference between those two Drurys shows the challenge of using HRS's images for this comparison: they're not normalized. They're not meant to be used as detailed comparison references, so to try and do it requires some work to fix the comparability issues.

To be absolutely concrete on the original point: if W05 is a heel curve, then the W28 has a significant heel curve. Just looking at the first half of the W28 it more than keeps up with the curve of the W05, the prototypical heel curve. Therefore, the W28 undoubtedly has a significant heel curve.

7qhcSsv.png

W28 is not just a heel curve, and it's also not just a toe curve. It really plays like two blades in one, which is one of the reasons why I think a lot of people that try it give up on it. Some dedicated Drury users can adapt to it once they see the similarities.

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For what it's worth, I was/am in the exact same boat. I think I made a post about it not long ago.

I ordered a few sticks from prostock hockey: Warrior PP09 and Sherwood W05, personally I prefer the Sherwood W05 overall. I don't know if it's the curve/lie difference so much as that the warriors' blade I received was not stiff at all. I can feel the blade flex a fair amount on snap shots making it very hard to control. Would recommend the Sherwoods.

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9 hours ago, flip12 said:

W28 is not just a heel curve, and it's also not just a toe curve. It really plays like two blades in one, which is one of the reasons why I think a lot of people that try it give up on it. Some dedicated Drury users can adapt to it once they see the similarities.

Like you said there can be confusion with using photo, and to be fair, look at the shaft angles on the photo you put up. The Kreps is leaning towards the right and the Drury is leaning to the left. Also, that Kreps curve looks to be significantly more open than the p28s in the photos I used. To me one of the things that's creating confusing is the open face of the blades. That's why I pointed out how the top edge of the blade looks in comparison. So I guess we can just throw out any sort of photo comparison then because, angles, lighting, etc aren't consistent across the board. So where does that leave us? Two men enter... and umm... stare at each other? :p

Like I said, my experience is consistent with what I think, and its consistent with what the creator of the curve says in the second video I posted above, that the back of the curve is fairly flat. I mean, I just got back from stick and puck and shooting with a p28 for 2 hours, and I honestly tried, and it doesn't feel like there's any curve back there when I'm doing things. When you shoot, pass, etc. with the p28 do you feel curve back there?

Otherwise, unless you have something else to offer up, we're going to have to agree to disagree. 

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11 hours ago, puckpilot said:

Like you said there can be confusion with using photo, and to be fair, look at the shaft angles on the photo you put up. The Kreps is leaning towards the right and the Drury is leaning to the left. Also, that Kreps curve looks to be significantly more open than the p28s in the photos I used. To me one of the things that's creating confusing is the open face of the blades. That's why I pointed out how the top edge of the blade looks in comparison. So I guess we can just throw out any sort of photo comparison then because, angles, lighting, etc aren't consistent across the board. So where does that leave us? Two men enter... and umm... stare at each other? :p

Like I said, my experience is consistent with what I think, and its consistent with what the creator of the curve says in the second video I posted above, that the back of the curve is fairly flat. I mean, I just got back from stick and puck and shooting with a p28 for 2 hours, and I honestly tried, and it doesn't feel like there's any curve back there when I'm doing things. When you shoot, pass, etc. with the p28 do you feel curve back there?

Otherwise, unless you have something else to offer up, we're going to have to agree to disagree. 

Let's try with another gif:

LpPcoDU.gif

Does that help?

I do use the heel curve capabilities of an X28 when I use one.

What I appreciate about a heel curve or a heel and toe curve is the ability to saucer the puck without involving my wrists. The open face is made to elevate the puck as it travels from heel to toe. As always with the X28, the release point for this is earlier than it normally would be, otherwise the puck gets released in the rockered toe section of the blade. The problem then is, instead of the puck tilting upwards for liftoff, it partially loses contact with the blade, so the puck only lifts up on one side and falls on the other: flutter launch. If you release before the toe rocker kicks in, the heel works as any lofted heel curve does.

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For what it’s worth on the topic - a bunch of old Drury guys switched to P28 in recent years. Letang, Doughty among others.
 

That’s not to say everyone can or should make the switch but it seems to be the most logical transition from old school to new school if one doesn’t feel like scouring eBay and Sideline for pro stocks. 

Edited by Cavs019
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