The Things Customers Do

[Sputnik20 46]

Question for the LHS owners/employees (and I'm sorry if it's been asked before, I haven't read all 150+ pages of this discussion). I've skimming through this thread and it seems a common theme is customers trying on all of your inventory and then getting it online for $X cheaper. Do any of you implement a "service fee" when letting customers try stuff on? Say, $10 or so and then if the customer buys from you, it goes towards the purchase. I'm pretty loyal to my local shops (although I'm not sure if I could call Wesco local to NYC) and I could never imagine doing something like that to an employee who put so much time and effort into fitting me.

My buddy runs a LHS, and they have posted by their skate wall "Skate Fitting $25. Thermaforming $30. Initial Sharpening $25. With Purchase...Free", so I asked him about it, and he had said that "too many people would come in and have themselves fitted for skates but not purchase anything after you spend an hour working with them. This cut down on customers who weren't serious about buying skates from the store"

on one hand, it may scare a lot of people away, but on the other hand I guess it tells the customer that if you go to an online shop and buy the same skates there, and most charge more than LHS for skates, or if you buy a clearance skate, you still have to get the "work" done at a shop, which will make its $$ on the service.

[wrangler 157]

My buddy runs a LHS, and they have posted by their skate wall "Skate Fitting $25. Thermaforming $30. Initial Sharpening $25. With Purchase...Free", so I asked him about it, and he had said that "too many people would come in and have themselves fitted for skates but not purchase anything after you spend an hour working with them. This cut down on customers who weren't serious about buying skates from the store"

on one hand, it may scare a lot of people away, but on the other hand I guess it tells the customer that if you go to an online shop and buy the same skates there, and most charge more than LHS for skates, or if you buy a clearance skate, you still have to get the "work" done at a shop, which will make its $$ on the service.

I'd go to another LHS, get fitted, and buy there. I wouldn't agree to pay $25 to find out what fits, what's available, and if the staff knows its stuff.

[sogaduch 0]

"I had this blade put in but I'm a right handed, can I get it switched for another one?"

Blade is cracked and tried to hide it with new tape

No the beauty one is past weekend saturday night lady came in feeling good and bought a stick for herself wood one we cut it down for her because she was playing on a pond that night so cut it down taped it up. Next day she came back in wanting to return it because she bought the wrong hand. Suggestion never buy a hockey stick drunk

[raganblink 82]

I'd go to another LHS, get fitted, and buy there. I wouldn't agree to pay $25 to find out what fits, what's available, and if the staff knows its stuff.

Most places that have these policies do it just for people like you - people that would actually go to LHS A, spend their time and get fitted etc, then go to LHS B or online to buy them, then have them serviced at LHS A.

Personally we don't have a fitting fee - Just mention to the customer that the initial sharpen and every bake is expensive as hell if you didn't get them from us, and its included in the price if you get it from us.

Its to help our profit margin - having customers come in going "well hockeymonkey has this skate at 189.99.... why are you 204.99?" "well, to get it from there you're looking at 15 to ship, so you're total would be 205... plus 30 bucks in sharpening and bake you're looking at 235. If you get it from us, its 205 + tax so 218, and sharpening and bake is included in price".

It works, helps alot. Technically still lower than online, but we've found out 15 bucks is about the highest people want to go "up" from MAP pricing. We don't have a LHS competition so its really us and online, hence no service fee. Too many LHSs are getting burned having someone come in, spend time on them, and having them not buy anything from them. While that time could have been spent helping another customer who would have ended up buying something. Competition for the LHS market, especially the ma and pa ones that have 3-4 employees, is quite tough. There's a reason you're seeing LHSs close left and right, and bigboys open left and right... Its creating an ever tough environment that is forcing quite a bit of people to close. Because shit has to be price matched - personal service IMO should be apart of the fee with a skate.

[Axxion89 32]

Most places that have these policies do it just for people like you - people that would actually go to LHS A, spend their time and get fitted etc, then go to LHS B or online to buy them, then have them serviced at LHS A.

Personally we don't have a fitting fee - Just mention to the customer that the initial sharpen and every bake is expensive as hell if you didn't get them from us, and its included in the price if you get it from us.

Its to help our profit margin - having customers come in going "well hockeymonkey has this skate at 189.99.... why are you 204.99?" "well, to get it from there you're looking at 15 to ship, so you're total would be 205... plus 30 bucks in sharpening and bake you're looking at 235. If you get it from us, its 205 + tax so 218, and sharpening and bake is included in price".

It works, helps alot. Technically still lower than online, but we've found out 15 bucks is about the highest people want to go "up" from MAP pricing. We don't have a LHS competition so its really us and online, hence no service fee. Too many LHSs are getting burned having someone come in, spend time on them, and having them not buy anything from them. While that time could have been spent helping another customer who would have ended up buying something. Competition for the LHS market, especially the ma and pa ones that have 3-4 employees, is quite tough. There's a reason you're seeing LHSs close left and right, and bigboys open left and right... Its creating an ever tough environment that is forcing quite a bit of people to close. Because shit has to be price matched - personal service IMO should be apart of the fee with a skate.

Agreed on mostly everything and I have yet to be at a LHS that had prices much higher than what online retailers have. Only real difference in prices is on outdated equipment such as leftover S17s and other items.

And Wrangler, my LHS has the same thing with charging fee but they waive it if you buy the skates or if they actually try to fit you and don't have what fits. Its necessary in todays market to have the fee IMO

[Drewhunz 3]

I'd go to another LHS, get fitted, and buy there. I wouldn't agree to pay $25 to find out what fits, what's available, and if the staff knows its stuff.

The more you post on here, the less likely I think the LHS would miss you.

[wrangler 157]

The more you post on here, the less likely I think the LHS would miss you.

I'm not quite sure how to take that; I can read it a couple different ways.

[Hermans 9]

I'm not quite sure how to take that; I can read it a couple different ways.

Hahahahaaaaaaaa. And if the LHS knew you by name and face that could be taken a lot more ways.

Gotta agree with you on this. I've purchased from both LHS and online but I'd never refer someone on line. My LHS does alright by me and if taken a couple of buddies (without cars) there. If they charged for fitting I wouldn't there anymore and I wouldn't take my friends there either; I spend enough in time and gas already when there are lots of other LHS options that don't charge.

[wrangler 157]

Hahahahaaaaaaaa. And if the LHS knew you by name and face that could be taken a lot more ways.

Gotta agree with you on this. I've purchased from both LHS and online but I'd never refer someone on line. My LHS does alright by me and if taken a couple of buddies (without cars) there. If they charged for fitting I wouldn't there anymore and I wouldn't take my friends there either; I spend enough in time and gas already when there are lots of other LHS options that don't charge.

I'm with you on supporting the good LHS. We need the LHS to check out equipment, and if we don't spend money there, they'll disappear. I buy some stuff online, but if I check out equipment at the LHS, I'll buy from them if they have what I want.

[Sputnik20 46]

I'm with you on supporting the good LHS. We need the LHS to check out equipment, and if we don't spend money there, they'll disappear. I buy some stuff online, but if I check out equipment at the LHS, I'll buy from them if they have what I want.

The way I see all of this playing out is thus: big brands like Bauer, Reebok/CCM, Easton, etc., don't really care for the smaller retailers that dominated the market place in the 80's, boomed in the 90's, and now have to fight the online retailers in the 00's (uh-oh's). HM or PH buy a million bucks a year and pay their bill on time, most likely at once. No need to have your credit department chase after $1000.00 bill over due by 61 day. My buddy who runs a LHS once told me how they under paid Bauer $.37 for an invoice, Bauer sends them a statement (envelope and $.44 postage)asking for a check worth $.37...I'm sure the big boys would have been forgiven the amount.

It is only a matter of time till all the hockey companies will be selling direct through their own sites, but before that happens, all the small retailers will be gone. The companies do nothing to protect any retailers but the big guys. MAP pricing is only on the high end stuff that has the least profit margin. They create new designs too quickly for the small retailers to sell through, devaluing their investments. They do not set prices and discounts on products as for example UA does, creating a closeout list when the product gets old, and everybody online or brick-n-mortar adheres to the changes.

Another interesting point that has come up with HM and PH moving into NJ for example (my friends and I discussed this at length). In MA, where PH is from, most rinks are municipal, and thus big box destination stores do well. Here in NJ there are only maybe 5 county or municipality owned rinks, which means that the rink owners rely on the pro shop for additional income (be it $100,000 a year). If any of these rinks here lose their shops, that's a lot of revenue lost, and in the long run we may even lose the rinks themselves. If that happens HM and PH will do well to sit on their thumbs wondering what happened.

Just saying that the days of LHS is coming to an end, and we may yet miss those times when we got blown off by a kid who is more interested in talking to his friends rather than finding a pair of used large pants that you had already found yourself. We may also miss the rinks that had those LHS in and needed them for their traffic and revenue. Where will we play then?

Edited March 3, 2011 by Sputnik20

[wrangler 157]

The way I see all of this playing out is thus: big brands like Bauer, Reebok/CCM, Easton, etc., don't really care for the smaller retailers that dominated the market place in the 80's, boomed in the 90's, and now have to fight the online retailers in the 00's (uh-oh's). HM or PH buy a million bucks a year and pay their bill on time, most likely at once. No need to have your credit department chase after $1000.00 bill over due by 61 day. My buddy who runs a LHS once told me how they under paid Bauer $.37 for an invoice, Bauer sends them a statement (envelope and $.44 postage)asking for a check worth $.37...I'm sure the big boys would have been forgiven the amount.

It is only a matter of time till all the hockey companies will be selling direct through their own sites, but before that happens, all the small retailers will be gone. The companies do nothing to protect any retailers but the big guys. MAP pricing is only on the high end stuff that has the least profit margin. They create new designs too quickly for the small retailers to sell through, devaluing their investments. They do not set prices and discounts on products as for example UA does, creating a closeout list when the product gets old, and everybody online or brick-n-mortar adheres to the changes.

Another interesting point that has come up with HM and PH moving into NJ for example (my friends and I discussed this at length). In MA, where PH is from, most rinks are municipal, and thus big box destination stores do well. Here in NJ there are only maybe 5 county or municipality owned rinks, which means that the rink owners rely on the pro shop for additional income (be it $100,000 a year). If any of these rinks here lose their shops, that's a lot of revenue lost, and in the long run we may even lose the rinks themselves. If that happens HM and PH will do well to sit on their thumbs wondering what happened.

Just saying that the days of LHS is coming to an end, and we may yet miss those times when we got blown off by a kid who is more interested in talking to his friends rather than finding a pair of used large pants that you had already found yourself. We may also miss the rinks that had those LHS in and needed them for their traffic and revenue. Where will we play then?

I hope your future doesn't come to pass. I think it's a bit on the pessimistic side; I see a place for the LHS, even if they say HM, PH, or TH above the door. I don't see 100% online retailing for items that people wear. I think there will always be a demand for seeing and trying on such things.

As to the rinks, we've got at least one here that has a TH shop on the premises, though I'm wondering what will happen there, since they recently opened a big store not that far away. I'd think that with all the leagues, there's always a need for stuff there, but we'll have to see if that need can support the store in the long run. You make a valid point that the smaller the operation, the tougher it is in terms of inventory size and turnover, a problem which is only exacerbated by the continual product line changes.

We'll see.

[JR Boucicaut 3795]

Posts like Sputnik's deserves the feature I took away from MSH - the ability to give positive votes to a post.

Nailed it.

[HockeySavants 5]

My LHS actually will match any online price, and sometimes give me a better deal.

Win?

[chippa13 1844]

The way I see all of this playing out is thus: big brands like Bauer, Reebok/CCM, Easton, etc., don't really care for the smaller retailers that dominated the market place in the 80's, boomed in the 90's, and now have to fight the online retailers in the 00's (uh-oh's). HM or PH buy a million bucks a year and pay their bill on time, most likely at once. No need to have your credit department chase after $1000.00 bill over due by 61 day. My buddy who runs a LHS once told me how they under paid Bauer $.37 for an invoice, Bauer sends them a statement (envelope and $.44 postage)asking for a check worth $.37...I'm sure the big boys would have been forgiven the amount.

For the record, the accounting systems that most larger companies use generate these statements automatically. It isn't like someone at Bauer is going over their outstanding receivables by hand and making a conscious decision to chase after $0.37 because it is owed by one of the "little guys".

[wrangler 157]

For the record, the accounting systems that most larger companies use generate these statements automatically. It isn't like someone at Bauer is going over their outstanding receivables by hand and making a conscious decision to chase after $0.37 because it is owed by one of the "little guys".

I think most of us have had at least one encounter with these billing computers over the years.

[AIREAYE 248]

I'd go to another LHS, get fitted, and buy there. I wouldn't agree to pay $25 to find out what fits, what's available, and if the staff knows its stuff.

I think what he's trying to say is that this fitting fee will turn off many POTENTIAL customers who WANT to buy skates and consider your LHS to see if there are any right fits. I wanted a new pair in the fall and went to an LHS to see what they had. The employees there brought out several pairs, but none of them was right for me. I ended up getting another pair of different skates at a big-box store not because it was cheaper, but there was a pair that fit right. However it is a granted that I'm in an area with a good mix of LHS' and big-box (Sportchek, PHL etc.) and I may not understand the workings of a small-town LHS in the States.

Now if that LHS were to have a fitting fee posted, then I wouldn't have went there at all to try skates and likely not have spent the time to browse for and buy smaller things like laces or tape. These LHS' with the fees will lose a lot of potential (note potential, not guaranteed) customers as news of the fee spreads.

The only way I think that a fitting fee would work and should be implemented would be if the LHS knew of the customer's intent of trying on skates at their store and buying online or at another LHS. However this wouldn't be very practical as anyone can just lie and say (even if they DO find a good pair) that nothing fit just to avoid the fitting fee.

[wrangler 157]

I think what he's trying to say is that this fitting fee will turn off many POTENTIAL customers who WANT to buy skates and consider your LHS to see if there are any right fits. I wanted a new pair in the fall and went to an LHS to see what they had. The employees there brought out several pairs, but none of them was right for me. I ended up getting another pair of different skates at a big-box store not because it was cheaper, but there was a pair that fit right. However it is a granted that I'm in an area with a good mix of LHS' and big-box (Sportchek, PHL etc.) and I may not understand the workings of a small-town LHS in the States.

Now if that LHS were to have a fitting fee posted, then I wouldn't have went there at all to try skates and likely not have spent the time to browse for and buy smaller things like laces or tape. These LHS' with the fees will lose a lot of potential (note potential, not guaranteed) customers as news of the fee spreads.

The only way I think that a fitting fee would work and should be implemented would be if the LHS knew of the customer's intent of trying on skates at their store and buying online or at another LHS. However this wouldn't be very practical as anyone can just lie and say (even if they DO find a good pair) that nothing fit just to avoid the fitting fee.

If "he" is me, yes, I gave myself as an example, but don't have a clue how tolerant others might be.

The "fitting fee" is simply something I don't want to support. As you mention, I'd also spend my money on other needed items at a competing LHS that didn't charge such fees.

[AIREAYE 248]

If "he" is me, yes, I gave myself as an example, but don't have a clue how tolerant others might be.

The "fitting fee" is simply something I don't want to support. As you mention, I'd also spend my money on other needed items at a competing LHS that didn't charge such fees.

Yeah I agree with you. I mean if a person is to be charged $25 or so for a fee, then they wouldn't be spending that money on smaller stuff like tape, laces and that jazz. I don't know how much that affects business, but it should be a factor.

[DarkStar50 679]

If your intention is to buy hockey skates from the LHS that has a fitting fee, what are you worried about? You won't be charged the fitting fee since you are buying the skates.

[AIREAYE 248]

What we mean is that if someone intends to buy skates and are impartial to either LHS or online/elsewhere, they won't go to the LHS with the fee because they are unsure if the LHS has a good skate for them and don't want to spend the $$ to find out, when they can see all the sizes available from online stores.

[chippa13 1844]

If your intention is to buy hockey skates from the LHS that has a fitting fee, what are you worried about? You won't be charged the fitting fee since you are buying the skates.

In a perfect world, no problem, every consumer who goes into the store to try on skates walks out with something that works for them. However, we know that isn't the case. Many stores don't carry all models and plenty of others don't carry all brands. People may not find the skate that fits right in the price range they are looking for. A well meaning consumer could walk out of a store $25-30 lighter simply because the store didn't have anything that worked for them.

[raganblink 82]

You are now aware most lhs that have a fitting fee don't charge if the customer can't find the skate. Example, someone comes in looking at 300 to spend. One70, x40, 8k, u10 don't fit but s12 does... he needs a normal not wide in that size, or, they have his size in s17 not s12 and that works... we don't have a fitting fee, but if we did, we wouldn't charge.

[DarkStar50 679]

That's exactly what we do. The fitting fee simply separates the prospects from the suspects. if this was a perfect world, customers wouldn't lie about their intentions.

[AIREAYE 248]

As non of our hockey shops here have a fee, I am not aware. But I want to present to you LHS guys a couple scenarios. I'm curious as to what you would do:

1 . Customer comes in claiming that they need skates sometime in the near future and uses your shop to start browsing around. Checking out the competition he says. You are unsure of his true intentions. Would you still fit him first, or inform him about the fee first?

2. Customer comes in claiming that he is here to purchase skates, more or less giving a neutral attitude, neither here (LHS) nor there. After spending some time fitting him, both of you seem to have found a correct skate. The customer then proceeds to complain about the high price, saying that he will 'think about it' and 'will return later'. Would you demand the fitting fee at that time? What if he balks at that and refuses?

[DarkStar50 679]

1. There is a sign stating $20 fitting fee in front of the skates. Therefore, they can both read it and we do mention it before we get started.

2. The customer will either agree or not agree to the fitting fee before we get started. That is how a fitting fee separates those who are ready to buy from those who are not.

Every situation is different and experience plays a big part in how we deal in each situation. There is an intuitive feel that comes from selling skates for a long time about who is ready to buy and who is not. These experiences, as strange as they may sound from those who only shop at a LHS, are a lot different for those who have worked at a LHS.