Balsillie's Back

[DarkStar50 679]

All of us can understand hockey registration getting soft in the US, but Canada?

[chippa13 1844]

It is an expensive sport and the economy is suffering. Plus, more leagues are probably operating outside the ranks of USA Hockey or Hockey Canada as a way of cutting costs.

[Rustyhole 1]

It is an expensive sport

parents don't help when they buy their 'lil tot X60's for what amounts to skating lessons <_<

[furlanitalia 1]

DarkStar50, I never thought of it but I guess registration is down. When I played Bantam 7 years ago, we had three rep teams and four in midget (ages 15,16,17). My brother is now in his second year, and only 68 kids tried out for rep, and the midget level only has 3 rep teams. Add that to the 6 house teams in bantam, and the 7 house teams in midget, and while a drop off of a team or two isn't huge, it still results to a loss of the 30 or so kids.

Shocking for sure, but other sports are definitely gaining momentum up here. Lacrosse is becoming a year round sport (box then field), and I know a lot players put their efforts towards that, as at one time (not sure if it still is) field lacrosse was only second to golf when it came to american scholarships out of high school.

[troy 12]

If a parent can afford the cost of X:60s for skating lessons, then I'd say cost is not prohibiting that family's hockey participation.

[furlanitalia 1]

I agree, but you rarely see any kids without at least some piece of decent gear. 10 years ago there wasn't a 200 dollar stick, and everyone wore used skates. My gear was all hand me down from my neighbour. This was the norm. There was more money for registration, were as now a days the only kids who can afford to play are the ones that had high end gear. My brother has used skates, but they're Vapor XXXX Prostocks. No one else has used skates, it's unheard of. It's unfortunate, but it seems that's the way things are going.

[flyers10 57]

Here in Phoenix, the 3 Polar Ice arenas don't use USAH registration for adult leagues. Not sure what they use for the kids. Switched to save money. I've taken time off due to costs every now and then. It is easy to see why soccer is the worlds most popular sport. All you need is an open area and a ball and you can get a game going. I'm just thankful they have more rinks in AZ now than 13 years ago when I moved here. Helps keeps costs in control a bit.

[hockeyherb 1]

and I'm not convinced moving to Hamilton in the long term is going to make money either. After an initial buy up and having to live in the salary cap world how is Hamilton going to make coin in a very diluted market. Leafs, Sabers, Ham will all be fighting out for the same fans, merchandise etc..Combine that with a possible non-winning team convince me that a new Ham team besides having a rich owner will be seeing coin more than any other mid wrung middling franchise.

One more thing to think about PHO is now the 4th most largest cosmo area in the US. Ask the NFL how they feel about not being in the LA market? OBTW Phoenix is very compatible with the LA/Vegs/PHX market

The US definitely has the large numbers of people in their big cities but they don't have the exposure required to get anyone excited about hockey. I live in Austin and it is near impossible to hear anything but a few throwaway comments about hockey in this town. It's all football, football, football and some baseball and some basketball. Kids will never get interested in hockey if they hear nothing about it on radio, at school, on TV (they have to want to find it on Versus one night a week or spring for the Center Ice package which is so overpriced I won't even pay for it anymore).

Whenever I go back to visit my folks in Calgary I'm pleasantly reminded by the depth of coverage of hockey there. It's front page news, it's headline stories on TSN and Sportsnet, not to mention they build outdoor rinks in the winter so anyone can strap on skates and grab a stick for a game. I can go play basketball outdoors any time of year here in Austin but trying to play hockey isn't so easy. (We have 4 full rinks now and are getting our Stars AHL affiliate so I'm hoping that will help, but I don't think season ticket sales are going that great and registration of our men's league was lower this year than hoped)

Bottom line is the best chance for the NHL to make money, IMHO, is to continue to milk the fan base with the greatest number of current hockey fans. The investment and time required to grow places like Phoenix are just too much for anyone to bare and without the media infrastructure to support it like they have in Canada it's just not going to happen. The business landscape is littered with companies that spent themselves into the ground determined to pursue growth in places that didn't want them.

I think what the NHL needs to prosper (survive?) is a big haircut of player salaries across the board - like 50% - sadly wages go up quickly during supposed good times but it is much harder to bring them back down especially in a union operation. OR close like 6-10 franchises that aren't making it and shrink the league to markets that can support hockey and keep the quality up. If they aren't pulling in the revenues they need from TV and ticket sales they need to cut expenses. I haven't seen any numbers but I assume player salaries are the highest component of that. Fat chance the union will let that happen of course since that's the opposite of their mandate, so I expect to see another lockout coming one of these days. This one might last longer than a year too.

[Chadd 916]

I think what the NHL needs to prosper (survive?) is a big haircut of player salaries across the board - like 50% - sadly wages go up quickly during supposed good times but it is much harder to bring them back down especially in a union operation.

The NHL is in good condition, there is no need for anything like a massive salary cut or reduction in teams. Most of the money in the NHL comes from ticket sales and sales were very good last year, this is the year you will see the impact of the current recession, if any. Some teams could make out better this year if confidence in the economy is stronger by October as single game tickets make more for the team than season tickets. There are a few weaker markets, but there are always going to be markets that are weaker than others. If you constantly cut the weaker teams markets, you end up with Toronto and Montreal. Those weaker markets are needed so that the league has more fans in more cities. It's not a one or two year process, it is a decade or more of work that goes into growing the new markets.

[chippa13 1844]

The US definitely has the large numbers of people in their big cities but they don't have the exposure required to get anyone excited about hockey. I live in Austin and it is near impossible to hear anything but a few throwaway comments about hockey in this town. It's all football, football, football and some baseball and some basketball. Kids will never get interested in hockey if they hear nothing about it on radio, at school, on TV (they have to want to find it on Versus one night a week or spring for the Center Ice package which is so overpriced I won't even pay for it anymore).

What???? Texas is all football all the time????? Shocking. Carolina is basketball, basketball, and more basketball, but when the Canes are in the hunt that stadium is among the loudest in the league.

As for Center Ice being overpriced, I think I paid like $130 last year. That didn't exactly break the bank but I suppose everyone has their limits.

The key to growing the game isn't a kid having Center Ice, it is a kid being exposed to the game personally, by a local pro team and other community events sponsored and/or attended by said team. A kid won't stumble on a game on Versus and become a fan. That happens through real interaction, either by going to a game or having the game brought to them.

[IniNew 51]

The US definitely has the large numbers of people in their big cities but they don't have the exposure required to get anyone excited about hockey. I live in Austin and it is near impossible to hear anything but a few throwaway comments about hockey in this town. It's all football, football, football and some baseball and some basketball. Kids will never get interested in hockey if they hear nothing about it on radio, at school, on TV (they have to want to find it on Versus one night a week or spring for the Center Ice package which is so overpriced I won't even pay for it anymore).

What???? Texas is all football all the time????? Shocking. Carolina is basketball, basketball, and more basketball, but when the Canes are in the hunt that stadium is among the loudest in the league.

As for Center Ice being overpriced, I think I paid like $130 last year. That didn't exactly break the bank but I suppose everyone has their limits.

The key to growing the game isn't a kid having Center Ice, it is a kid being exposed to the game personally, by a local pro team and other community events sponsored and/or attended by said team. A kid won't stumble on a game on Versus and become a fan. That happens through real interaction, either by going to a game or having the game brought to them.

That stems back to his original point. Texas, and markets like ours don't care enough about hockey to advertise any sort of team functions. I didn't know about the Dallas Stars Ice Breaker until last season, and that's only because some friends found out about it by word of mouth.

There's no coverage of hockey down here.

[chippa13 1844]

Then that is the team's fault for not pushing itself into the limelight. You can't just keep blaming the media for feeding the people what they want. If you want more coverage then you have to keep putting yourself out there. Cross promotion with the other sports teams is a great way to get some exposure. Send your players to a Cowboys game, get Cowboys players at your game. Get creative. You can't just expect people to seek you out, seek them out.

[Chadd 916]

That stems back to his original point. Texas, and markets like ours don't care enough about hockey to advertise any sort of team functions. I didn't know about the Dallas Stars Ice Breaker until last season, and that's only because some friends found out about it by word of mouth.

There's no coverage of hockey down here.

Markets don't advertise hockey, teams have to advertise themselves. Non-traditional markets require non-traditional marketing techniques. The stars averaged 95.4% of capacity last year, down slightly from 97% and 96% in the previous two years. A lot of people in the market seem to know about the team.

[chippa13 1844]

Speaking Wednesday at the Canada's Olympic orientation camp in Calgary, Coyotes captain Shane Doan said neither Phoenix fans nor the city should be blamed for the franchise's problems.

"Now if you went seven years without making the playoffs [like Phoenix], or not even come close," Doan told Canadian Press, "you'd see what any hockey city would be like, especially when you have so many [entertainment] options like Phoenix."

At least Doan gets it.

[ktang 34]

Speaking Wednesday at the Canada's Olympic orientation camp in Calgary, Coyotes captain Shane Doan said neither Phoenix fans nor the city should be blamed for the franchise's problems.

"Now if you went seven years without making the playoffs [like Phoenix], or not even come close," Doan told Canadian Press, "you'd see what any hockey city would be like, especially when you have so many [entertainment] options like Phoenix."

At least Doan gets it.

Except for the Leafs and Rangers...

I think that the franchises in non-traditional markets need more and continued success. The traditional market teams could suck for longer periods before their attendance numbers drop below threshold.

In non-traditional markets, yes it is the team's job to push into the limelight, but they don't have the pull from the fans (it takes 3 generations to develop). In traditional markets the pull is there to help the team in their rough patches. Marketing can address the push, but not the pull.

[Chadd 916]

As previously noted, the Penguins have had an NHL team since 1967 and they were averaging less than 10k people a few years ago. That was barely a decade after winning two cups and there are very few entertainment options in Pittsburgh. In virtually every market, winning is the only thing that brings people out to games. Then you have cities like Detroit where even winning isn't enough to get people into the building when you win all the time. Every team should go through up and down cycles. If for no other reason than so the fans appreciate the good times.

[shotty 7]

Year after year the NHL finishes at the top in terms of the income and education levels of their fans.

what are the stats on pga tour events?

hockey is an elitist sport... it costs a lot to play. people who play, usually watch and vice-versa (although this is open to argument).... just like golf.

i think that if PSE wins its bid to purchase and relocate the phx franchise, it wont be very long before bettman steps down. they're fighting tooth and nail to keep jb out of the club, and a defeat of this magnitude would be a huge blow to the ego of bettman.

[Chadd 916]

Year after year the NHL finishes at the top in terms of the income and education levels of their fans.

what are the stats on pga tour events?

hockey is an elitist sport... it costs a lot to play. people who play, usually watch and vice-versa (although this is open to argument).... just like golf.

i think that if PSE wins its bid to purchase and relocate the phx franchise, it wont be very long before bettman steps down. they're fighting tooth and nail to keep jb out of the club, and a defeat of this magnitude would be a huge blow to the ego of bettman.

The PGA tour is not a league, I've never seen it included in those surveys. This has nothing to do with Bettman or his ego. The other owners do not want JB. Some have said it publicly, and most others it in the 26-0 vote.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=289764

Another no decision. Baum has no balls at all.

However, one lawer for Balsille is saying the team could be moved mid season. If JB gets his team, I dont see why he couldnt wait a year to move. If his bid states that the Coyotes must be moved this season, idc how high his bid is, he shouldnt be able to do that.

[shotty 7]

Year after year the NHL finishes at the top in terms of the income and education levels of their fans.

what are the stats on pga tour events?

hockey is an elitist sport... it costs a lot to play. people who play, usually watch and vice-versa (although this is open to argument).... just like golf.

i think that if PSE wins its bid to purchase and relocate the phx franchise, it wont be very long before bettman steps down. they're fighting tooth and nail to keep jb out of the club, and a defeat of this magnitude would be a huge blow to the ego of bettman.

This has nothing to do with Bettman or his ego. The other owners do not want JB. Some have said it publicly, and most others it in the 26-0 vote.

I think it has a lot to do with ego. bettman had a plan to expand the NHL into non traditional hockey markets and it has cleary been an unsuccessful attempt. jb wants a team, and he wants a team in Hamilton. relocating a team like Nashville or phx to Hamilton would be a perfect display of the nhl's inability to succeed in certain non traditional markets, contrary to bettman's plan... right? I don't know for certain what kind of picture bettman paints to the board of governors, but it's my belief that bettman has something to lose by allowing a failing team to thrive. and that something is the realization that he was wrong, which in turn costs bettman cred. and to a certain extent, ego. this is a group of 30+ very successful men, and typically when there's money and testosterone involved, ego is the third ingredient.

now of course, jb might very well be an unsuitable owner... But a guy like Gary, who gets paid by the owners and essentially secured a place in their hearts with revenue sharing, introducing cap system, and other items that allow owners to operate successful businesses, has built up a certain level of trust and control, to the point where the common phrase coming from his mouth probably sounds something like "you don't think your old buddy Gary would do you wrong, do you?". it just seems to me that bettman has made it his personal mission to win. seems like its personal. seems like he has a solid 26 man club and has worked many years and picked up the bill of many $500-a-plate dinners to be that man. to have one canadian billionaire with a plan come along and make him look like a fool is crushing.

i could be totally wrong, too. the canadian media does a great job of villainizing bettman... and hey, why not take a former canadian team and bring it back to this side o the 49th? doesnt seem totally unreasonable, given the circumstances.

[Chadd 916]

i could be totally wrong, too.

You are

[shotty 7]

damn. i'm curious as to what you would have written had i not confessed to an open mind.

[DarkStar50 679]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=289764

Another no decision. Baum has no balls at all.

However, one lawer for Balsille is saying the team could be moved mid season. If JB gets his team, I dont see why he couldnt wait a year to move. If his bid states that the Coyotes must be moved this season, idc how high his bid is, he shouldnt be able to do that.

From today's Toronto Globe and Mail, "the hearing turned to the NHL's decision to reject would-be buyer Jim Balsillie on character grounds. But it became clear Jim Balsillie will probably not find out on Wednesday if his $212.5-million offer to buy the Coyotes and move them to Hamilton would be accepted by the court over the league's objections. Tom Salerno, a lawyer for Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes, told the court there were five basic arguments to be made on the issue. But by the time the court took a short recess at mid-day, the lawyers were still arguing the character issue, which was the first of the five."

When there are five basic arguments with multitudes of teams of lawyers involved, the idea that Judge Baum was going to come to any final decisions today is ludicrous. This situation has a very long way to go.

[Chadd 916]

The TSN blog stated pretty early on that it was obviously going to take a second day. You also can't make a decision before the arguments have been made.

[hockeyherb 1]

This has nothing to do with Bettman or his ego. The other owners do not want JB. Some have said it publicly, and most others it in the 26-0 vote.

I doubt it is Bettman's ego also. If he thought the Coyotes could move to Hamilton and make more $$$ for the NHL I don't think he would oppose it so vehemently. He would moan and groan about losing such a valuable city and feel horrible for the fans and blame Moyes for all the troubles yadda yadda, but he'd go along with it all the while.

Don't discount the fact that Bettman could have easily swayed all the owners into rejecting Balsillie by saying that accepting him as an owner is going to cause a legal battle with MLSE down the line. Much easier to try and reject him on character issues (which stupidly Balsillie gives them plenty of ammo for) than to accept him and have another potentially larger legal hassle later on.