VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

Just now, Sniper9 said:

I'll agree that a lot of people defend the company quite a bit. Imo, since true took over, all the cosmetic issues like glue and uneven stitching should be more strictly quality controlled. 

As for the rivets, it could have been an issue of removing and riveting a number of times causing the holes to widen slightly.  However with a carbon sole it seems that would be less of an issue than traditional soles. But like I said, I can't really say the rivet issue is actually a problem with the design since the issue only started to arise when the tech strayed from trues original rivet pattern. 

You had the skates 2 weeks and had rivet issues that wouldn't have occurred in another skate unless you had a riveter that was totally incompetent.  It screams of a problem. Doing rivets is easy work.  It slides in the hole.  It sounds to me like the carbon sole has inherent weaknesses for that to occur.  As for the quality control issues - you are right - it is unacceptable and no one on this forum would have ever given CCM or Bauer a pass on that like they do with True.  More objectivity is needed here.

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

When you have a carbon fiber sole, it is hard for steel rivets to stay, as they can't curl and "bite" into the material.  All of the brands who have done this style of sole has had those issues - all the way back to Easton with the Synergy.

CCM's inner sole is texallium.  That's how they get around it - it's hard, but still softer.  What I normally do when I had to replace True rivets was that I mashed them with the copper rivet point (the flat one) so that it would flatten the rivet out.

Now, as far as the whole casting and orthotics situation, I find it very interesting that they couldn't make the skate from the casting, at the very least.  Now, I've read that you guys have had issues using aftermarket footbeds in your skates, but I've sent that same combination of items (casting/orthotic) to other brands for customers, and they've built them from that, and built them to accommodate the orthotic.

[Sniper9 530]

3 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

When you have a carbon fiber sole, it is hard for steel rivets to stay, as they can't curl and "bite" into the material.  All of the brands who have done this style of sole has had those issues - all the way back to Easton with the Synergy.

CCM's inner sole is texallium.  That's how they get around it.  What I normally do when I had to replace True rivets was that I mashed them with the copper rivet point (the flat one) so that it would flatten the rivet out.

Now, as far as the whole casting and orthotics situation, I find it very interesting that they couldn't make the skate from the casting, at the very least.  Now, I've read that you guys have had issues using aftermarket footbeds in your skates, but I've sent that same combination of items (casting/orthotic) to other brands for customers, and they've built them from that, and built them to accommodate the orthotic.

The mashing of the rivets is essentially what the last shop that I got my ls2 holders put on did. And they look much more sturdy and aren't going anywhere. The one that did get loose I noticed wasnt flattened as well and wasn't sitting flush, so that was an oversight by them unfortunately.  That shop pumps out alot of true skates and the majority of those they install tuuks on so they must have caught on earlier that rivets don't grab well on the true/vh soles. 

I'm glad you Chimed in on this JR. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

11 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

When you have a carbon fiber sole, it is hard for steel rivets to stay, as they can't curl and "bite" into the material.  All of the brands who have done this style of sole has had those issues - all the way back to Easton with the Synergy.

CCM's inner sole is texallium.  That's how they get around it.  What I normally do when I had to replace True rivets was that I mashed them with the copper rivet point (the flat one) so that it would flatten the rivet out.

 

So then it sounds like using a carbon fiber sole is an issue.  I am not surprised by that. 

[marka 526]

Howdy,

34 minutes ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Fair enough but I still think the crew here is defensive and dismissive of any critique.

Is this your first time on an internet forum?

:-)

Mark

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

1 minute ago, marka said:

Howdy,

Is this your first time on an internet forum?

:-)

Mark

Howdy,

No.  Hoping to address a bit of that here.

-DM

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

17 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

The mashing of the rivets is essentially what the last shop that I got my ls2 holders put on did. And they look much more sturdy and aren't going anywhere. The one that did get loose I noticed wasnt flattened as well and wasn't sitting flush, so that was an oversight by them unfortunately.  That shop pumps out alot of true skates and the majority of those they install tuuks on so they must have caught on earlier that rivets don't grab well on the true/vh soles. 

I'm glad you Chimed in on this JR. 

The OTHER issue (especially on these types of skates) is the rivet size.  In almost every case, the shop either replacing OEM rivets or doing an aftermarket holder swap uses the wrong size, therefore they're longer and there's internal space, allowing the rivet to get loose.  Or they're not experienced enough to fit rivets and use a longer one because it's easier.

[Vet88 674]

7 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Now, as far as the whole casting and orthotics situation, I find it very interesting that they couldn't make the skate from the casting, at the very least.  Now, I've read that you guys have had issues using aftermarket footbeds in your skates, but I've sent that same combination of items (casting/orthotic) to other brands for customers, and they've built them from that, and built them to accommodate the orthotic.

I find it odd also. When I contacted Rob a while ago, VH would use my foot casting if I cared to send it in. As I'm overseas this would have been the only way I'd have had a pair of skates made as I would not be wanting to deal with returns for modifications. Do it once, do it right.

Maybe True has changed this policy? If so I think it sucks especially for those that have spent the time and money to get a cast and, rightfully so, think that the use of it will produce a better fitting boot than just measurements.  

[CigarScott 132]

7 hours ago, JR Boucicaut said:

Now, as far as the whole casting and orthotics situation, I find it very interesting that they couldn't make the skate from the casting, at the very least.  Now, I've read that you guys have had issues using aftermarket footbeds in your skates, but I've sent that same combination of items (casting/orthotic) to other brands for customers, and they've built them from that, and built them to accommodate the orthotic.

Do one or both of the "Big 2" do this if I provided foot molds and orthotics? Ideally I would like the boot to not need a third party orthotic and have the orthotic built in, made of carbon fiber or whatever other super duper material that they can use that won't break down due to my weight. I would also like to have the outside of my right boot reinforced to compensate for the amount of pressure I put on that part of my foot along with my weight.

[Buddy 7]

19 hours ago, CigarScott said:

You may have supination in that foot. If the super feet don't work long term, you may have to see an orthodist or podiatrist to get custom orthotics made. I have it really bad in my right foot and have the same symptoms as you.

The superfeet are working well, so thats what I'm going with currently. It's a weird feeling in my leg. It's like as if you sat down and put your ankle on it's side, the outside and stretched that muscle/ligament on the outside. After one period it tends to go away, but the superfeet feels good. I used the superfeet in my previous skates as well, as I felt I had pressure on the balls of my feet. 

[JR Boucicaut 3801]

2 hours ago, CigarScott said:

Do one or both of the "Big 2" do this if I provided foot molds and orthotics? Ideally I would like the boot to not need a third party orthotic and have the orthotic built in, made of carbon fiber or whatever other super duper material that they can use that won't break down due to my weight. I would also like to have the outside of my right boot reinforced to compensate for the amount of pressure I put on that part of my foot along with my weight.

Nothing built in, no. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

12 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

You had the skates 2 weeks and had rivet issues that wouldn't have occurred in another skate unless you had a riveter that was totally incompetent.  It screams of a problem. Doing rivets is easy work.  It slides in the hole.  It sounds to me like the carbon sole has inherent weaknesses for that to occur.  As for the quality control issues - you are right - it is unacceptable and no one on this forum would have ever given CCM or Bauer a pass on that like they do with True.  More objectivity is needed here.

Actually I am pretty sure it was mentioned before that it has been addressed by adding an inner layer over the carbon fiber so the rivets can dig in. And rightly pointed out by JR some shops do not have the correct size when installing or replacing rivets. And tge copper base does an excellent job flattening out tge rivets. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

1 minute ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Actually I am pretty sure it was mentioned before that it has been addressed by adding an inner layer over the carbon fiber so the rivets can dig in. And rightly pointed out by JR some shops do not have the correct size when installing or replacing rivets. And tge copper base does an excellent job flattening out tge rivets. 

well then, I guess that solves all their problems. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

3 minutes ago, dkmiller3356 said:

well then, I guess that solves all their problems. 

Really a face palm? Explain. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

10 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Really a face palm? Explain. 

Because we hear all of these things about the durability problems and quality control and the weight etc...  and then everyone comes on this group and says "but NOW its great."  So this is like another of those to me...   so NOW they added an inner layer.  It's all great now.  I don't know... the truth is that it's a bit cultish and guys are always talking this skate up like its the be all end all but it's a niche skate and it has issues.  I wouldn't have a problem with any if that though if the thread were fair and balanced.  It is not.

By the way, you said they added this inner layer to correct the footbed/rivet issue.  But this guys skates are new.  Maybe they didn't do a great job fixing it?  Hard to say but sounds very possible,

Edited February 20, 2018 by dkmiller3356

[mojo122 535]

I'm just waiting to see what True's future or long term strategy is for this skate.  Easton took the MLX skate, refined it, and then brought it to market as a high skate in the Mako.  When wasn't selling they brought in a less expensive version of it, which was still unsuccessful.  

Agree that in it's current form that it's a niche skate targeting a narrow consumer market.  The majority of adults are buying skates in the $300 to $500 range, which eliminates the the current True skate from their skate search.

[Sniper9 530]

3 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Because we hear all of these things about the durability problems and quality control and the weight etc...  and then everyone comes on this group and says "but NOW its great."  So this is like another of those to me...   so NOW they added an inner layer.  It's all great now.  I don't know... the truth is that it's a bit cultish and guys are always talking this skate up like its the be all end all but it's a niche skate and it has issues.  I wouldn't have a problem with any if that though if the thread were fair and balanced.  It is not.

By the way, you said they added this inner layer to correct the footbed/rivet issue.  But this guys skates are new.  Maybe they didn't do a great job fixing it?  Hard to say but sounds very possible,

I'm pretty sure JR meant that CCM has the layer not true. Also different issues arise on skates for different people. Someone might have rivet issues and some might have tendon guards and some have both etc. If you read reviews for any products, there are issues for everything that may or may not appear for others. 

The only real consistent issue I have seen the qc for excess glue and other cosmetic stuff.  

My rivet issue was only after I had the holders replaced twice. So there's no way I can really blame true for this problem as there are many other factors that could be why. 

Like I said before, there are alot of true homers here but if you are tired of reading it, then why not just unsubscribe from this thread? 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

19 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

 

Like I said before, there are alot of true homers here but if you are tired of reading it, then why not just unsubscribe from this thread? 

One reason..   I want to make this thread better and more objective.

And he was referring to True regarding added layer.

Edited February 20, 2018 by dkmiller3356

[adams2001 54]

Not to beat an over glued skate, but I can see both sides. I think what makes most people True Homers (myself included) is the search for the right fit. 

The general opinion is that if a customer is fitted properly and does their homework before making a choice on skates they will get the right fit. 

My feet are pretty awful and I had a tough time getting the correct fit. This is why when I got my VH’s they were the best thing to ever happen to my Hockey life. 

I went through a few pair of skates, trying to find the right fit with extensive conversations with my LHS. 

I agree that to the outsider that the true love seems a little cultish but most people on here went through a journey trying to find the right fit and will put up with some glue or rivet issues for a comfortable skate. 

I like checking in on this forum to see if qc has suffered since the true accusation. As far as I can see there has been some hiccups but it seems like they are headed in the right direction. 

I can say with confidence that the next pair of skates I buy will be trues, my vhs are about 3 years old and still going strong though. 

[flip12 715]

It's odd True, and previously VH, get beat up for excess glue, imperfect material application, etc. Every time I'm in a shop checking out skates, I see the same issues with mass produced skates. I've never had the chance to do side-by-side so it could be Van Horne skates are worse in those areas, but the big brands are by no means perfect.

3 hours ago, mojo122 said:

I'm just waiting to see what True's future or long term strategy is for this skate.  Easton took the MLX skate, refined it, and then brought it to market as a high skate in the Mako.  When wasn't selling they brought in a less expensive version of it, which was still unsuccessful.  

Agree that in it's current form that it's a niche skate targeting a narrow consumer market.  The majority of adults are buying skates in the $300 to $500 range, which eliminates the the current True skate from their skate search.

I feel the same. I haven't had the chance to skate in anything after MLX, but even from that experience, I can see the benefit of Van Horne's approach. I agree with those that see issues to be addressed, and I see them slowly getting worked on. Eventually, I could see a successful stock line or two from True. The shells are just so incredibly moldable that even a stock boot, like the MLX, can provide a near custom fit to a wide range of feet. It might take a good deal of trial and error to dial them in--the curse of such great moldability is there are so many tunable areas that it can take more effort to address all of them and they may require different DIY methods to do so--but the upside of an incredibly responsive and comfortable skate could be worth it.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

1 hour ago, dkmiller3356 said:

One reason..   I want to make this thread better and more objective.

And he was referring to True regarding added layer.

I never said the problem was fixed I said they added a layer to make it better. I am sure there are lots of things to make the whole skate better. |

But again it all comes down to the better fit. It just is that for the majority of people. 

Could the whole skate cosmetically be better? Of course, I do not think anyone here (True/VH fans) said it couldn't be. Have they fitted and satisfied every client? NOPE. 

But....if your tendon guard breaks you can replace it. Rivets come loose they can be replaced. Blade alignment not much of an issue there. Fit pretty much spot on. 

So if the main fault in the skate is rivets replaced and excess glue, for the most part, I think that's not to shabby.

[Zac911 317]

True Homer 

Honestly from all that I had heard leading up to me getting the skates I was excited to get a great fit with no more pain from the usual problem areas,  but until you actually get a pair of your own you really have no idea what you are in for.

I have many of my own friends who have purchased the skates and the feedback has nearly always been-  " WOW WOW WOW-  Best Hockey Purchase Ever PERIOD ".

Some of them could perhaps have the argument that they don't NEED $1000 skates,  but the fact that they better enjoy their hockey experience everytime they hit the ice makes me happy.

I completely get an understand any skepticism and that for some it's a leap of faith to spend that much;  however,  if you are looking spending north of $600 on a pair of skates TRUE should be on your radar.

 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

24 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

I never said the problem was fixed I said they added a layer to make it better. I am sure there are lots of things to make the whole skate better. |

But again it all comes down to the better fit. It just is that for the majority of people. 

Could the whole skate cosmetically be better? Of course, I do not think anyone here (True/VH fans) said it couldn't be. Have they fitted and satisfied every client? NOPE. 

But....if your tendon guard breaks you can replace it. Rivets come loose they can be replaced. Blade alignment not much of an issue there. Fit pretty much spot on. 

So if the main fault in the skate is rivets replaced and excess glue, for the most part, I think that's not to shabby.

So you know, I have paid for better fit... I get it.  I have custom Bauer V-cuts.  I spent more than I would have sent on True skates.  I will tell you why...  I was concerned about the durability and workmanship issues, the weight and the overall stiffness of the skate.  So I am not againts guys paying to get the fit they want.  As a consumer I expect certain quality for my money.  That being said, I do think that the vast, vast majority of people do not need to spend what I did or go custom in any way.  They need a good fitter and enough product to try on.  Thats why I think all customs - no matter the manufacturer - are a niche skate unless the price drop to 500-600.

In regard to your last sentence  - no one accept that from Bauer or CCM.  Why does VH/True get a pass???

19 minutes ago, Zac911 said:

True Homer 

Honestly from all that I had heard leading up to me getting the skates I was excited to get a great fit with no more pain from the usual problem areas,  but until you actually get a pair of your own you really have no idea what you are in for.

I have many of my own friends who have purchased the skates and the feedback has nearly always been-  " WOW WOW WOW-  Best Hockey Purchase Ever PERIOD ".

Some of them could perhaps have the argument that they don't NEED $1000 skates,  but the fact that they better enjoy their hockey experience everytime they hit the ice makes me happy.

I completely get an understand any skepticism and that for some it's a leap of faith to spend that much;  however,  if you are looking spending north of $600 on a pair of skates TRUE should be on your radar.

 

Its not the leap of faith part, nor, for me, is it the cost...  it's the concerns over what I have seen and heard.  I think there are some things that still need to be addressed on the skate.

I also don't expect you to say anything different - you work for them.

Can you elaborate, exactly, on what material was put into the footbed to address the concerns there?

Edited February 20, 2018 by dkmiller3356

[Larry54 243]

15 minutes ago, dkmiller3356 said:

So you know, I have paid for better fit... I get it.  I have custom Bauer V-cuts.  I spent more than I would have sent on True skates.  I will tell you why...  I was concerned about the durability and workmanship issues, the weight and the overall stiffness of the skate.  So I am not againts guys paying to get the fit they want.  As a consumer I expect certain quality for my money.  That being said, I do think that the vast, vast majority of people do not need to spend what I did or go custom in any way.  They need a good fitter and enough product to try on.  Thats why I think all customs - no matter the manufacturer - are a niche skate unless the price drop to 500-600.

Its not the leap of faith part, nor, for me, is it the cost...  it's the concerns over what I have seen and heard.  I think there are some things that still need to be addressed on the skate.

I also don't expect you to say anything different - you work for them.

Can you elaborate, exactly, on what material was put into the footbed to address the concerns there?

I think it was about CCM inner sole.

On 2/19/2018 at 10:21 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

When you have a carbon fiber sole, it is hard for steel rivets to stay, as they can't curl and "bite" into the material.  All of the brands who have done this style of sole has had those issues - all the way back to Easton with the Synergy.

CCM's inner sole is texallium.  That's how they get around it - it's hard, but still softer.  What I normally do when I had to replace True rivets was that I mashed them with the copper rivet point (the flat one) so that it would flatten the rivet out.

Now, as far as the whole casting and orthotics situation, I find it very interesting that they couldn't make the skate from the casting, at the very least.  Now, I've read that you guys have had issues using aftermarket footbeds in your skates, but I've sent that same combination of items (casting/orthotic) to other brands for customers, and they've built them from that, and built them to accommodate the orthotic.

 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

 @Zac911, was anything added to the footbed?