VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[matix218 11]

LOL, what an absurd analogy. We expect a sports car to be nice and shiny. It won't have pucks regularly bouncing off of it, sticks hitting it and skate blades slicing it. If the skate maker focuses 99% of his attention on the skates' performance and build strength and quality, and only 1% on appearance, that's fine with me, and seems to be fine with half of the Winnipeg Jets, and many Olympic speed skaters.

Yeah I agree, I get what he is saying about any company that builds an expensive product taking pride in the appearance of their work but seriously you are comparing a glossy perfect Italian sports car that you will never bring out in the rain, will stay in a heated garage and only be driven to car shows on 70+ degree sunny days to a piece of sports equipment that is going to be smacked with sticks/pucks/metal blades etc every time that you use it? All I know is every retail pair of "pristine perfect skates" (which btw sometimes still had glue smears and messed up stitching from the factory) looked like it had way more defects than "a few excess glue smears" after literally the first game I played on them. Skates are only going to look pretty before they are played in 1 time, after that its all about performance and durability, I could care less about glue smears if they perform as advertised.

[McDugan 89]

If they aren't going to make sure something as simple as wiping off excess glue is done properly then what other aspects are they treating as "good enough"?

If, during the very finite amount of time the adhesive has to set, the maker is busy mopping up the small amounts that are squeezed out from between two layers of material, what aspect of the structural integrity is being compromised by the fact that he's worrying about the cosmetic effect of the glue rather than its primary purpose?

Hey you're entitled to your opinion. Nobody's trying to get you to shell out $850 for these skates. But this is getting to the point where you're making implications against VH, based on... what, exactly?

[iceman8310 106]

stay on topic please

[mc88 160]

This debate is becoming one-sided, heh! Since I started it, I'll chime in a bit here. My primary concern is not much so much about the aesthetics, but about the structural integrity and durability of the boot. If the boot was a rush job and the glue smears and streaks are the result of that rush, then I may be receiving an inferior product that wouldn't last as long as if someone were to slow down and take the time necessary to ensure a clean work surface and a clean product. A clean product shows care and attention to detail, whereas excess glue and stains show lack of time investment and an emphasis on getting the product done and out of the door with an "O.K" result.

For example, let's relate this to welding two pieces of metal together...

Am I getting this?

Or, am I getting this?

Edited March 13, 2014 by mc88

[chippa13 1844]

And someone gets it.

[iceman8310 106]

This debate is becoming one-sided, heh! Since I started it, I'll chime in a bit here. My primary concern is not much so much about the aesthetics, but about the structural integrity and durability of the boot. If the boot was a rush job and the glue smears and streaks are the result of that rush, then I may be receiving an inferior product that wouldn't last as long as if someone were to slow down and take the time necessary to ensure a clean work surface and a clean product. A clean product shows care and attention to detail, whereas excess glue and stains show lack of time investment and an emphasis on getting the product done and out of the door with an "O.K" result.

For example, let's relate this to welding two pieces of metal together...

Am I getting this?

Or, am I getting this?

you should contact scott with any issues and ask him. I'm sure he will help

Edited March 13, 2014 by iceman8310

[laserrobottime 149]

Or, you could e-mail Scott and ask him if this will become an issue/how he will fix it rather than making ridiculous analogies about it on a forum full of people who can't actually do anything about it.

Ask Scott what kind of solvent should be used to clean up the glue. I guarantee he'll have a satisfactory answer for you.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say for the beer leaguers on this board, the skates will NOT come unglued, will NOT fall apart, and will NOT spontaneously combust as some of you fear.

Edited March 13, 2014 by laserrobottime

[uclaman 6]

Just placed an order. Excited!

Will post pics whenever I receive them.

I'm pretty sure the skates will improve my ability to dangle on the ice as well as pick up chicks off the ice. They may allow me to drink more beer following games as well.

[laserrobottime 149]

I'm pretty sure the skates will improve my ability to dangle on the ice as well as pick up chicks off the ice. They may allow me to drink more beer following games as well.

You are 100% correct on 66% of those assumptions.

[mc88 160]

Or, you could e-mail Scott and ask him if this will become an issue/how he will fix it rather than making ridiculous analogies about it on a forum full of people who can't actually do anything about it.

Ask Scott what kind of solvent should be used to clean up the glue. I guarantee he'll have a satisfactory answer for you.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say for the beer leaguers on this board, the skates will NOT come unglued, will NOT fall apart, and will NOT spontaneously combust as some of you fear.

Don't be asinine. The analogies are relevant. The skates don't meet the quality standard of "New without defects." You, the consumer, have a right to know that the standard was not met despite my disposition: The glue seepage doesn't bother me enough to warrant a return. However, as a consumer (satisfied or not), I feel obligated to notify potential consumers, who are thinking about buying the skates, that in my experience and in my pictures I've provided above, the quality control is a bit lacking (especially for a high-end, expensive product).

Whether or not these defects will affect the durability of the boot, only time will tell. But... there is an expectation and industry standard... As a consumer buying a brand new product, you expect it to be free of manufacturing mistakes; else, the product will be considered defective.

Edited March 14, 2014 by mc88

[laserrobottime 149]

Don't be asinine. The analogies are relevant. The skates don't meet the quality standard of "New without defects." You, the consumer, have a right to know that the standard was not met despite my disposition: The glue seepage doesn't bother me enough to warrant a return. However, as a consumer (satisfied or not), I feel obligated to notify potential consumers, who are thinking about buying the skates, that in my experience and in my pictures I've provided above, the quality control is a bit lacking (especially for a high-end, expensive product).

Whether or not these defects will affect the durability of the boot, only time will tell. But... there is an expectation and industry standard... As a consumer buying a brand new product, you expect it to be free of manufacturing mistakes; else, the product will be considered defective.

Asinine? Me? The very definition of asinine is posting complaints to a forum before the manufacturer has a chance to even respond.

I went through something similar with my skates but at least I had the tact to let Scott address the issues before I got all butthurt on the internet.

Edited March 14, 2014 by laserrobottime

[mc88 160]

Asinine? Me? The very definition of asinine is posting complaints to a forum before the manufacturer has a chance to even respond.

I went through something similar with my skates but at least I had the tact to let Scott address the issues before I got all butthurt on the internet.

You're missing the whole point. Why should I spend time and money to fix visible mistakes that were there before the product was shipped? And... once again, if these mistakes made it in a box and to my door, the quality control is lacking.

And... once again, I'm content with the product as is.

Edited March 14, 2014 by mc88

[laserrobottime 149]

I'm really sick of the entitlement of the people on this board.

I'm out of this thread.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

With that said, I'm looking at those photos with MY IDEA of how MY PRODUCTS should look after they are made, and maybe that is above the expectations of my clients/potential clients, even you sir (OR), having been a former client.

ME PERSONALLY, talking about MY COMPANY, I honestly don't think I'd sleep well KNOWING I sent out product like that, which is why we take photos of everything we make. We see things after the fact that you don't see, however, the things we see after the fact have never been so blindingly obvious as what the photos show. Are we perfect in our manufacturing, no; I don't believe anyone is. However, we certainly have to minimize product like that getting out of the house.

You bring up some really good points, and I do agree with you and feel that these should be shown to Scott in the hopes that he will make a better effort going forward in his quality control. As a side note, as far as your stuff goes, I've ordered a good amount of stuff from you in the past and I can say it is above and beyond the quality expectations I could have possibly had going into the transactions. Truly could not be happier.

Though at the same time, I do look at VH hockey skates as kind of a "beta" product, to use an analogy from MY world. Basically a hand made (but available to the masses) prototype (an alpha being a prototype not available to the masses). I don't know how accurate that is but to compare it to a product that I do own, I would have expected quality flaws like this in the MLX but definitely not in the Mako, if that makes sense.

However, I could be TOTALLY wrong on that (the status of the VH skate in its product lifecycle). It's just the way I've viewed VH, personally, and I have lower standards and can accept more flaws in a beta product.

[mcne0101 16]

Or, you could e-mail Scott and ask him if this will become an issue/how he will fix it rather than making ridiculous analogies about it on a forum full of people who can't actually do anything about it.

Ask Scott what kind of solvent should be used to clean up the glue. I guarantee he'll have a satisfactory answer for you.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say for the beer leaguers on this board, the skates will NOT come unglued, will NOT fall apart, and will NOT spontaneously combust as some of you fear.

I don't get why people are so fired up about both sides of this argument. I agree with both sides for the most part.

On one hand people believe if you pay $800+ for skates you shouldn't have to clean up the glue, that should have been done by the manufacturer. On the other hand people are saying skates are made for performance, if the performance is great and the construction is great....who cares about the glue showing. its different strokes for different folks, no need to get angry at the opposing opinion.

[bunnyman666 445]

I read the point someone wanted to know that "Scott was here". I dunno- I'd rather have a signature. Like on the old Marshall amps, Jim Marshall would start covering cabinets whilst having a fit of insomnia, and he would sign the inside of the cabinet.

I think I would be disappointed enough to reject that pair of skates based on the glue streaks. I may have alluded to possibly not rejecting; however, I was pretty peeved about a few skipped details on an item I paid considerably less but was hand made. I can't imagine how I would have reacted to glue streaks on an $800 pair of skates.

[mc88 160]

From the God's fingertips to your eyes:

Hi Matt,

ya white is difficult to work with and keep clean.

Don't use a solvent - it will damage the material. If you have masking tape use that to gently peal the glue away. If you continue to press it down and then pull up, you will notice that a little bit comes off at a time.

thanks

Scott

When I get time later tonight, I'll try it out.

[iceman8310 106]

If you bought a hand made Italian sports car would you be fine with smears in the paint or excess glue on the windshield? When you pay a premium for a hand made product then you expect them to take the care that there are not imperfections, cosmetic or otherwise.

Never heard of Lanica, Alfa, a ferrari Dino, or Lamborghino Espada? Italian Sports Cars with terrible reliability. Most Italian sports cars may be good to look at but mechanically they are sub par.

Edited March 14, 2014 by iceman8310

[laserrobottime 149]

I hope it comes out satisfactorily.

[McDugan 89]

I don't get why people are so fired up about both sides of this argument. I agree with both sides for the most part.

On one hand people believe if you pay $800+ for skates you shouldn't have to clean up the glue, that should have been done by the manufacturer. On the other hand people are saying skates are made for performance, if the performance is great and the construction is great....who cares about the glue showing. its different strokes for different folks, no need to get angry at the opposing opinion.

That's fine if it stays at that. Certainly any buyer is reasonably entitled to his/her opinion regarding stray glue streaks, but as has been pointed out, any dissatisfaction, with glue or anything else, would be most effectively addressed with the manufacturer directly than with the MSH community.

However, it's gone a level beyond that - it's really unfair to Scott for people to make unfounded implications that the glue streaks are somehow the result of poor workmanship or an indication that the skates in question were a rush job. Not to mention the "subtle" (or not so much) attempts at mockery of those of us who said it wouldn't bother us.

Junkyard made some very good points, but doesn't acknowledge that the materials and conditions he works with in his business are very obviously different from those used in making these skates. Easy for anyone to say, "Well, I wouldn't stand for that," when you aren't making skates by hand. Making skates by hand. Seriously, guys.

It's been pretty well documented throughout this thread that the VH skates are handmade and show cosmetic signs of it. Minor cosmetic blemishes (I won't call them flaws because they aren't) shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention. And frankly, anyone dropping that kind of money on custom skates without paying attention deserves disappointment.

Edited March 14, 2014 by McDugan

[iceman8310 106]

if the product is OK for NHL players to use I'm sure its OK for the beer leaguers on this board to use them as well

[mc88 160]

Though at the same time, I do look at VH hockey skates as kind of a "beta" product, to use an analogy from MY world. Basically a hand made (but available to the masses) prototype (an alpha being a prototype not available to the masses). I don't know how accurate that is but to compare it to a product that I do own, I would have expected quality flaws like this in the MLX but definitely not in the Mako, if that makes sense.

However, I could be TOTALLY wrong on that (the status of the VH skate in its product lifecycle). It's just the way I've viewed VH, personally, and I have lower standards and can accept more flaws in a beta product.

If this product is indeed in the early stages of R&D, then it should price adjusted accordingly. The standard set at the $800 mark by other companies is high. Therefore, when you charge at the standard, and you don't meet it, you fail.

Check any product by Bauer, CCM or Easton that has a price at $800+. Chances are you're not going to see any blemishes. Why? Because any blemishes on a high-end skate, no matter how small, reflects poorly on the company. The company attached their logo to their product and is stating, "This is our final product to you, the consumer." This is why if any blemishes are noted, you'll often see them at discount, as such: http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php/topic/63192-20k-skates-cosmetic-defects/

For those that don't want to click:

I see that Pro Hockey Life is selling 20K's with cosmetic defects for 50% off, $399.99 Cdn. I've never seen "Seconds" being sold through retail outlets before and wonder if this is common practice? Has anybody bought "Seconds" in the past and if so, what has your experience been?

Again, there's an industry standard. If Scott charges at the price, why shouldn't a consumer expect the standard already set? If anything there should be no excuse for sub-standard work being placed into a consumer hands. No matter how minor and insignificant. It reflects poorly on his company and says: "We sell you a new item with cosmetic defects at $850 and expect you to fix our mistakes."

That doesn't happen folks. If it did, the company wouldn't be around for very long.

Another way to think about it is: Junkyard wants to compete against Reebok by creating jerseys for consumers. If Junkyard does not meet and/or exceed the standard set by Reebok, Junkyard won't be able to compete at the same price structure. Simple as that.

In other words, I WANT VH FOOTWEAR TO SUCCEED AND MAKE AWESOME PRODUCTS. However, they should work on their quality control. Because most consumers won't accept a sub-standard product at a premium price.

Edited March 14, 2014 by mc88

[jordyn 0]

When its all said and done how much are these skates? I see alot of people saying they cost $850. For custom blades like these I'd expect to pay more.

[iceman8310 106]

When its all said and done how much are these skates? I see alot of people saying they cost $850. For custom blades like these I'd expect to pay more.

$899 with ls2 holders and steel. hope this helps

http://www.vhspeedskating.com/hockey/warranty/

Edited March 14, 2014 by iceman8310

[jordyn 0]

$899 with ls2 holders and steel. hope this helps

http://www.vhspeedskating.com/hockey/warranty/

Thanks; now to justify this purchase to girlfriend.