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TRUE TF9/TF7 skates

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6 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:

Thanks for your advice, but the blades of my Supremes have a +2 forward pitch(Blackstone).

OK.That's not a standard Supreme pitch, so, that gives more credence to your observation.   Makes more sense now.  From my measurements though, I'd approximate the TF pitch to still be +2 or more.  I was doing it at home though, so, again, people from a shop may have more accurate info. 

Good luck.

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1 hour ago, hockeydad3 said:

Yesterday i had the chance to skate for the first time in my new TF7. All rinks are closed due to lockdown since mid of november. A small lake 40km away has build ice to skate on since last week. The ice condition was terrible and i didn`t skate since two months.

My former skates have been Supremes 180, 6.5D with a 11´ radius and a +2 forward pitch(Blackstone). They don´t have enough volume and they are a few mm to short. Lacing too loose my toes get squeezed and lacing too tight my insteps and arches get squeezed.

That´s why i´m trying the Trues. They are 6.5R and have been sharpened out of the box without profiling. I was baking them with the saran wrap method and they fit like a glove. I was trying to break them in at home on the carpet several times. They have a little more volume, are some mm´s longer and have a better wrap than the Supremes.

The skating experience was fine with good support from the skates and a little pain in my footsole. The length is ok, toes touching the cap while standing and not touching while skating or sitting. I´m assuming that they will give some more lenght and volume after breaking in.

Two things that i noticed: They are way more agile and a little less stable than my supremes, maybe due to a shorter profile. And they have less forward pitch than my supremes. Has anyone a definite information about the profile radius (e.g. icewarehouse says 9' & 10') and the pitch of the TF7?

At first i would give them more hours on the ice. I like the new agility, but would go up to a 10´ profile if the profile is 9´and add a +1 forward pitch if i can´t adapt. Or should i try a Quad Zero profile?

I'd recommend trying the Quad Zero Profile if you can. When I went from Vapors with a Quad Zero to True's with a Quad Zero the profile was much more noticeable on the True's in a good way.

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4 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Yesterday i had the chance to skate for the first time in my new TF7. All rinks are closed due to lockdown since mid of november. A small lake 40km away has build ice to skate on since last week. The ice condition was terrible and i didn`t skate since two months.

My former skates have been Supremes 180, 6.5D with a 11´ radius and a +2 forward pitch(Blackstone). They don´t have enough volume and they are a few mm to short. Lacing too loose my toes get squeezed and lacing too tight my insteps and arches get squeezed.

That´s why i´m trying the Trues. They are 6.5R and have been sharpened out of the box without profiling. I was baking them with the saran wrap method and they fit like a glove. I was trying to break them in at home on the carpet several times. They have a little more volume, are some mm´s longer and have a better wrap than the Supremes.

The skating experience was fine with good support from the skates and a little pain in my footsole. The length is ok, toes touching the cap while standing and not touching while skating or sitting. I´m assuming that they will give some more lenght and volume after breaking in.

Two things that i noticed: They are way more agile and a little less stable than my supremes, maybe due to a shorter profile. And they have less forward pitch than my supremes. Has anyone a definite information about the profile radius (e.g. icewarehouse says 9' & 10') and the pitch of the TF7?

At first i would give them more hours on the ice. I like the new agility, but would go up to a 10´ profile if the profile is 9´and add a +1 forward pitch if i can´t adapt. Or should i try a Quad Zero profile?

A longer will likely fix a lot of your stability, since you’re used to longer.

I personally prefer 11’ over 9’ or 10’, but I skate ok on the others. I feel more in tune with the 11’ so I know what it’s like to not quite feel right on shorter radii.

Another issue of note: The True’s are shorter cut. It could be you’ll have a transition period where you adapt to their level and situation of support. True’s boots are more on par height-wise with classic Grafs like the 703 than what the other brands produce.

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1 hour ago, flip12 said:

A longer will likely fix a lot of your stability, since you’re used to longer.

I personally prefer 11’ over 9’ or 10’, but I skate ok on the others. I feel more in tune with the 11’ so I know what it’s like to not quite feel right on shorter radii.

Another issue of note: The True’s are shorter cut. It could be you’ll have a transition period where you adapt to their level and situation of support. True’s boots are more on par height-wise with classic Grafs like the 703 than what the other brands produce.

When you say "shorter cut", you mean boot height?  I wasn't sure, but my son is coming from Makos and thought the boots were great and Makos are pretty low as well.  So, just wondering what that meant.

 

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1 hour ago, smcgreg said:

When you say "shorter cut", you mean boot height?  I wasn't sure, but my son is coming from Makos and thought the boots were great and Makos are pretty low as well.  So, just wondering what that meant.

Yes, lower cuff height on the boot, about 1 eyelet lower than other brands, approximately. I think Makos are about the same as Trues, but I haven’t had my hands on more than one pair of those and can’t exactly recall how they stacked up side by side with my MLX.

Trues are the same height as my 703s but more stable in the ankle due to three main factors: 1. Trues are stiffer; 2. Trues have consistent spacing between the top eyelets where Graf had a 1.5x gap between the top and second eyelets; 3. Trues *usually have a closer fit, shrinkwrapped around the ankle while Graf had an extra layer of reinforcement around the collar of the boot, from the top eyelet on one side to the top eyelet on the other, ensuring ample room for ankle ROM.

 

*depending on how they’re molded.

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On 10/18/2020 at 8:51 AM, SkateWorksPNW said:

Ok, I am 100% convinced there is something crazy going on with TRUE sizing.

Here are pics comparing my TRUE customs vs a size 7R in the first photo.

The second photo is my TRUE customs compared to a size 6.5R TF9. Both have 272 holders. My custom skates are basically a size 7.25 when compared to Bauer and CCM. 

This is going back a few months but you say the 6.5R TF9's have 272 holders, is this right?

I got the following from True for TF7 and TF9, they have the holder size as 254:

TRUE Skate – Holder chart

3, & 3.5 - 230

4, & 4.5 - 238

5, & 5.5 - 246

6, & 6.5 - 254

7, & 7.5 - 263

8, & 8.5 - 272

9, & 9.5 - 280

10, & 10.5 - 288

11 , & 11.5 – 296

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Vet, the stock holder size list you posted is correct. SkateWorksPNW does have 272mm holders installed on 6.5 TF9s, but he added those after. It's not a stock setup, but the 272mm holders fit on without issue. That's part of the reason he knows that the boots themselves are sized larger than the size indicated on the tag vs. other brands and models.

I wear 8EE Makos with 272mm holders and tried on both 8W and 7.5W TF9 skates. The 8W TF9 was obviously too long. The 7.5W felt closer to the right size, but there's a chance I could even go down to a 7. I didn't get a chance to try on a 7 and don't need need skates right now; I was just curious and was thinking about grabbing these when I do need new skates. Anyway, I would have to go down a holder size (since the stock holder on 7 and 7.5, both wide and regular, is 263mm) and at least a half skate size (maybe a full size) vs. Makos. Hills also has a video (Hockeyreviews.ca) discussing the sizing and details how they're oversized: 

 

Both Hills and SkateWorksPNW have baked and used the skates; so they have a better idea of the sizing than I do since I have only tried on a couple pairs without baking them, but we all agree that they fit larger than other brands. The fact that they're so responsive to heat makes it even more challenging to figure out the size as the right size could feel too small before baking them.

Edited by althoma1
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33 minutes ago, althoma1 said:

Vet, the stock holder size list you have listed is correct. SkateWorksPNW does have 272mm holders installed on 6.5 TF9s, but he added those after. It's not a stock setup, but the 272mm holders fit on without issue. That's part of the reason he knows that the boots themselves are sized larger than the size indicated on the tag vs. other brands and models.

I wear 8EE Makos with 272mm holders and tried on both 8W and 7.5W TF9 skates. The 8W TF9 was obviously too long. The 7.5W felt closer to the right size, but there's a chance I could even go down to a 7. I didn't get a chance to try on a 7 and don't need need skates right now; I was just curious and was thinking about grabbing these when I do need new skates. Anyway, I would have to go down a holder size (since the stock holder on 7 and 7.5, both wide and regular, is 263mm) and at least a half skate size (maybe a full size) vs. Makos. Hills also has a video (Hockeyreviews.ca) discussing the sizing and details how they're oversized: 

 

Both Hills and SkateWorksPNW have baked and used the skates; so they have a better idea of the sizing than I do since I have only tried on a couple pairs without baking them, but we all agree that they fit larger than other brands. The fact that they're so responsive to heat makes it even more challenging to figure out the size as the right size could feel too small before baking them.

To follow up on this and our sizing experience, again, my son is 6.5 in Mako.   We got him 6.5 without sizing, because it was for Xmas.  Out of the box he thought they were perfect.  AFter baking they were clearly too big. 

At the store, my skate guy, who is very good, thought that a 6 might even be too big, so, he tried a 5.5. ($$$ if only...)  Again, out of the box, the 5.5. actually felt perfect to him except for a couple spots that could have been locally heated.  After baking though.... too small.

So, he ultimately settled on 6, which he loves (boot wise), but the disconnect between 1) other manufacturers and 2) unbaked fit vs baked fit makes it imperative to actually try the things on after baking to assure correct fit.  I was very surprised that they got tighter after baking with the 5.5.s, but I guess that's a testament to the material used.

 

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15 hours ago, Vet88 said:

This is going back a few months but you say the 6.5R TF9's have 272 holders, is this right?

I got the following from True for TF7 and TF9, they have the holder size as 254:

TRUE Skate – Holder chart

3, & 3.5 - 230

4, & 4.5 - 238

5, & 5.5 - 246

6, & 6.5 - 254

7, & 7.5 - 263

8, & 8.5 - 272

9, & 9.5 - 280

10, & 10.5 - 288

11 , & 11.5 – 296

I put 272 on my 6.5 TF9. They fit perfectly. From the factory they had 254. 

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10 hours ago, smcgreg said:

To follow up on this and our sizing experience, again, my son is 6.5 in Mako.   We got him 6.5 without sizing, because it was for Xmas.  Out of the box he thought they were perfect.  AFter baking they were clearly too big. 

At the store, my skate guy, who is very good, thought that a 6 might even be too big, so, he tried a 5.5. ($$$ if only...)  Again, out of the box, the 5.5. actually felt perfect to him except for a couple spots that could have been locally heated.  After baking though.... too small.

So, he ultimately settled on 6, which he loves (boot wise), but the disconnect between 1) other manufacturers and 2) unbaked fit vs baked fit makes it imperative to actually try the things on after baking to assure correct fit.  I was very surprised that they got tighter after baking with the 5.5.s, but I guess that's a testament to the material used.

 

I would have stuck with the 5.5 unless they were so small they crushed his feet. Foams will break in and the 5.5 would have fit perfectly once they broke in a little bit.

I guess the good thing about a size 6 is if his feet grow at all he will have a little bit of space. 

Edited by SkateWorksPNW

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14 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I would have stuck with the 5.5 unless they were so small they crushed his feet. Foams will break in and the 5.5 would have fit perfectly once they broke in a little bit.

I guess the good thing about a size 6 is if his feet grow at all he will have a little bit of space. 

It would have been nice ($$), but 1) he said his toes were crunched.  For a kid going down two sizes from his 6.5 makos that he says are hurting his feet, it seemed risky.  2) He would have needed to go down holder size as well, which I've discussed before.  So, it just didn't seem like a good idea.  I think the 6s will fit perfect for a while. 

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11 hours ago, smcgreg said:

It would have been nice ($$), but 1) he said his toes were crunched.  For a kid going down two sizes from his 6.5 makos that he says are hurting his feet, it seemed risky.  2) He would have needed to go down holder size as well, which I've discussed before.  So, it just didn't seem like a good idea.  I think the 6s will fit perfect for a while. 

Awesome. Seems to have worked out well then 🙂 

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19 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Awesome. Seems to have worked out well then 🙂 

Yet to be determined.  He hasn't had a chance to skate on the new profile (10 ft -1) yet.  I was hoping to get it out of the way before things picked back up, but skating got real busy again all of a sudden.  So, we'll see.

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18 hours ago, hockeydad3 said:

Doesn't anyone know the original profile radius of a TF7 ice skate in size 6.5 / 254mm?

Is it 9`,10` or a 9`/10`double radius?

9/10 double

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1 hour ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

9/10 double

Ok that´s what i guessed. When I shift my center of gravity backwards, I feel a click that initially feels like I'm falling backwards. The front half of my runner feels good, but the back half doesn't have enough forward pitch and there is some steel missing under my heel. I ordered a pair of runners profiled with the ellipse zero profile, let's see when they arrive and when I can skate on them.

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1 hour ago, hockeydad3 said:

Ok that´s what i guessed. When I shift my center of gravity backwards, I feel a click that initially feels like I'm falling backwards. The front half of my runner feels good, but the back half doesn't have enough forward pitch and there is some steel missing under my heel. I ordered a pair of runners profiled with the ellipse zero profile, let's see when they arrive and when I can skate on them.

Are you saying the back is 9' and the front is 10'?  That seems odd.  My son also felt like there was steel missing under his heel, but I thought that was because it was a standard 9'. 

 

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42 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

Are you saying the back is 9' and the front is 10'?  That seems odd.  My son also felt like there was steel missing under his heel, but I thought that was because it was a standard 9'. 

 

I just can tell you my perception mentioned above.

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9 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Are you saying the back is 9' and the front is 10'?  That seems odd.  My son also felt like there was steel missing under his heel, but I thought that was because it was a standard 9'. 

 

9' front, 10' back.

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On 1/7/2021 at 12:17 PM, smcgreg said:

To follow up on this and our sizing experience, again, my son is 6.5 in Mako.   We got him 6.5 without sizing, because it was for Xmas.  Out of the box he thought they were perfect.  AFter baking they were clearly too big. 

At the store, my skate guy, who is very good, thought that a 6 might even be too big, so, he tried a 5.5. ($$$ if only...)  Again, out of the box, the 5.5. actually felt perfect to him except for a couple spots that could have been locally heated.  After baking though.... too small.

So, he ultimately settled on 6, which he loves (boot wise), but the disconnect between 1) other manufacturers and 2) unbaked fit vs baked fit makes it imperative to actually try the things on after baking to assure correct fit.  I was very surprised that they got tighter after baking with the 5.5.s, but I guess that's a testament to the material used.

 

Following up to this reply to help maintain some continuity. 

Today, my son skated on his TF9s in two back to back games for the first time since profiling to 10 ft and -1 pitch.  As a reminder, he hated the stock profile out of the box and was miserable after one stick adn pucks.  As reference, he skated on his Makos in a game yesterday and decided to dive in head first for two games today for a number of reasons.  This was a fairly high level skate (college recruitment), but not at the AAA 15U level.  Since he skated one game yesterday, the Makos were fresh in his mind and TF9s were brand new and effectively novel to him since the profile was different.  I'll break it down by things I think made a difference.

1.  10 ft radius - Much better than stock.  He was visibly "teetering" back and forth on the stock profile at sticks and pucks.  It was probably a combination of things, but he commented he felt like there wasn't enough steel under his toes and heels.  No such comment today and no "teetering".

2.  minus 1 pitch - Again, much better than stock.  He commented that he still felt like he was being pushed forward a bit, but could probably get used to it.  Will give it a couple more skates. 

Other harder to attribute observations: 

3. Power transfer - He commented that he felt more powerful on them.  As support, after playing two back to back games, he felt less tired than the day before playing only one game on his Makos yesterday.  As corroboration, watching him, I thought he was going further on each stride. I commented on this to a friend before his comments.  So, not that this would be a specific True property, I just think the Mako footbed is breaking down and he's just getting better power transfer, resulting in greater stride efficiency and less fatigue.

4. He said they feel like "tanks".  Heavier, beffier, less agile.  They are heavier than Makos, but as I've stated before he needs more protection, so, any more protective skate will likely be heavier.  at this point, this is his only complaint and he accepts that nothing will feel like the Makos from here on out.  So, need to adjust and see if he can get the agility from these on top of the other benefits.

Finally, the fact that he skated two back to back games without any comfort issues in brand new skates is almost unheard of in any other brand, than Makos, I expect.  The only comfort complaint was a bit of rubbing at the cuff because they come up higher than Makos.  He's going to try higher socks next time to see if that fixes it, but if not, I'll heat and roll out the cuff.  Still, pretty impressive to get that knid of comfort/fit for $600. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Following up to this reply to help maintain some continuity. 

Today, my son skated on his TF9s in two back to back games for the first time since profiling to 10 ft and -1 pitch.  As a reminder, he hated the stock profile out of the box and was miserable after one stick adn pucks.  As reference, he skated on his Makos in a game yesterday and decided to dive in head first for two games today for a number of reasons.  This was a fairly high level skate (college recruitment), but not at the AAA 15U level.  Since he skated one game yesterday, the Makos were fresh in his mind and TF9s were brand new and effectively novel to him since the profile was different.  I'll break it down by things I think made a difference.

1.  10 ft radius - Much better than stock.  He was visibly "teetering" back and forth on the stock profile at sticks and pucks.  It was probably a combination of things, but he commented he felt like there wasn't enough steel under his toes and heels.  No such comment today and no "teetering".

2.  minus 1 pitch - Again, much better than stock.  He commented that he still felt like he was being pushed forward a bit, but could probably get used to it.  Will give it a couple more skates. 

Other harder to attribute observations: 

3. Power transfer - He commented that he felt more powerful on them.  As support, after playing two back to back games, he felt less tired than the day before playing only one game on his Makos yesterday.  As corroboration, watching him, I thought he was going further on each stride. I commented on this to a friend before his comments.  So, not that this would be a specific True property, I just think the Mako footbed is breaking down and he's just getting better power transfer, resulting in greater stride efficiency and less fatigue.

4. He said they feel like "tanks".  Heavier, beffier, less agile.  They are heavier than Makos, but as I've stated before he needs more protection, so, any more protective skate will likely be heavier.  at this point, this is his only complaint and he accepts that nothing will feel like the Makos from here on out.  So, need to adjust and see if he can get the agility from these on top of the other benefits.

Finally, the fact that he skated two back to back games without any comfort issues in brand new skates is almost unheard of in any other brand, than Makos, I expect.  The only comfort complaint was a bit of rubbing at the cuff because they come up higher than Makos.  He's going to try higher socks next time to see if that fixes it, but if not, I'll heat and roll out the cuff.  Still, pretty impressive to get that knid of comfort/fit for $600. 

 

 

Cool to hear the detailed follow up.

Out of curiosity, how much do the Makos weigh compared to the Trues, and how much higher cut are the Trues?

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4 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Following up to this reply to help maintain some continuity. 

Did you change the holder size or leave him on 254?

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6 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Did you change the holder size or leave him on 254?

For now, on the 254.  As I noted, his glide seemed longer and he was stable fore-aft. Going to stick with current parameters for a couple skates to see how he adapts.  He doesn't feel as agile right now, so, will chip away at more low hanging fruit with the next change.  First would likely be another minus 0.5 on pitch.  Since he thought they felt like tanks, I didn't think a longer holder would help much. 

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fwiw - comments I have received from True about their skate length:-

"The internal measurement of True skates are a 1/4 size longer than the equivalent internal measurement of Bauer skates. The external measurement of True skates is longer than equivalent sized Bauer skates because of features in the True boot and it's design - for example the True one piece shell has an inner carbon toe box that is covered by an external toe box."

Sadly their is no rational explanation as to why someone who can fit their foot (25.5cm long) into a size 6D Bauer (with toes just off the toe cap) can fit the same foot into a 5.5R True skate (with about a 1/4 size of room to spare). True insist that their skate sizings are equivalent to Bauer and refuse to acknowledge that the internal measurements of their skates are at least a 1/2 to 3/4 size larger than same sized Bauer skates.

It's the CCM debacle all over again. At least CCM fronted up about it, eventually. One can only hope True will bite the bullet and do the same and fix their sizing in the next release, this was alluded to me by the comment "as we incorporate your feedback into the development of our next skate models".

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I saw a TF9 Goalie skate, I won't link the photo as I'm not sure if it's supposed to be out yet (also it would take a few steps and I'm lazy), but it looks good and I'll probably be ordering a TF7 for myself.

What I wonder is if the goalie holder will take on both player and goalie runners, if so then I can pick up a cheap player runner and use that for ODR skating, and swap them out for the goalie runners for playing. This is unless there's more to the difference between the skates than maybe just angles, tendon guard, and added protection to the boot against impact. 

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