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TRUE TF9/TF7 skates

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29 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

 I think of it this way, if you are driving straight down through the footbed, transferring force directly through the blade with no torque, stiffness of the sidewalls does’t come into play.

Of course, but there are many instances where that is not going to be the case or even possible. 

Look at it this way, there are some very explosive fast skaters that have absolutely atrocious skating mechanics. Why?  because 1) they simply produce a lot of power and 2) they have a "tight" system that allows that power to be transferred.  On the other hand, you can have players with very good mechanics who are simply not explosive, why? because 1) they simply don't produce a lot of power.... well, that's it.  Can, the latter case overcome the former, sometimes, there are a lot of variables at play in the game of hockey.  Ideally, you want to produce lots of power AND have good mechanics. 

Anyway, I get both of your points now and agree for the most part, but also will point out, it's simply not possible to have a perfect angle of attack and therefore zero power loss under all circumstances no matter how good your mechanics are and how  much you practice.  Again, not arguing ankle flexibilty isn't important or that lacing low is good if you can do it,... but.... you will compromise power transfer in some contexts, you just will.

 

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Whilst I would love to try sandals with a holder on them (and I have been seriously considering trying this), I will readily admit the support the boot provides around the bottom of the foot is critical to good skating. IMHO it is the advances in boot technology that makes untied skating so different to anything that has come before.

We could debate for ever the cons and pros of untied skating and the rabbit hole of bio mechanics and force loadings. Until a skilled untied / tied skater can get a skate on a fancy force-measuring treadmill (which cost a few 100k $'s and then you have to convert it for ice skating) and then model the data along the lines of the work done by people like Daniel Lieberman, we will never know the answer. Putting aside my unqualified comments and everything that I have seen working with skaters, I still go back to Darryl Evans, there is just no way he would have kept his place with the Flyers if his power, acceleration and explosiveness was compromised as he got to 5 eyelets only lacing.

Edited by Vet88

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I came across this just now while I was browsing Scott Van Horne's patents, and it articulates my thoughts better than I would have:

"The sport of in-line and ice speed skating, hockey, figure skating, cross-country skiing, and the like are all very competitive sports, at the elite level. For optimal performance these sports demand comfort and stability. A lack of comfort can result in decreased training time. A lack of stability can result in: a loss of power through excessive joint bending and increased fatigue through excessive lower leg muscle stimulation, these factors will cause a decrease in performance."

From: High performance custom moldable footwear

I like the idea of laces free skating for training but I am skeptical about its broad applicability for competition.

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13 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Whilst I would love to try sandals with a holder on them (and I have been seriously considering trying this), I will readily admit the support the boot provides around the bottom of the foot is critical to good skating. IMHO it is the advances in boot technology that makes untied skating so different to anything that has come before.

We could debate for ever the cons and pros of untied skating and the rabbit hole of bio mechanics and force loadings. Until a skilled untied / tied skater can get a skate on a fancy force-measuring treadmill (which cost a few 100k $'s and then you have to convert it for ice skating) and then model the data along the lines of the work done by people like Daniel Lieberman, we will never know the answer. Putting aside my unqualified comments and everything that I have seen working with skaters, I still go back to Darryl Evans, there is just no way he would have kept his place with the Flyers if his power, acceleration and explosiveness was compromised as he got to 5 eyelets only lacing.

I'll leave the Lieberman reference alone.... 😉  That's a huge can of worms.  Regardless, I really don't think instrumented treadmills are necessary to get to the answer and in fact, would be more challenging to get a satisfactory answer than some simpler alternatives.  As I say, I know quite a lot of elite players and can deduct broad principles from that data I have.  Alternatively, some simple, well conducted on-ice testing could get to the answer as well.  As I alluded to earlier in the thread, we were going to do some of it with my son after making the changes, but he's absolutely convinced in the set up he wants now and any amount of testing I do won't make a bit of difference.  That's another thing about hockey, the mental piece is huge and if you make a change that the athlete perceives reduces performance, it will affect confidence to the point that it will likely reduce performance regardless.  A self-fulfilling prophecy or a negative placebo effect if you will. 

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.  We've gotten far enough off of the topic, we probably should leave it at this point.

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4 hours ago, flip12 said:

I came across this just now while I was browsing Scott Van Horne's patents, and it articulates my thoughts better than I would have:

"The sport of in-line and ice speed skating, hockey, figure skating, cross-country skiing, and the like are all very competitive sports, at the elite level. For optimal performance these sports demand comfort and stability. A lack of comfort can result in decreased training time. A lack of stability can result in: a loss of power through excessive joint bending and increased fatigue through excessive lower leg muscle stimulation, these factors will cause a decrease in performance."

From: High performance custom moldable footwear

I like the idea of laces free skating for training but I am skeptical about its broad applicability for competition.

This is actually relevant to the points I made with the TF9 comparison I made earlier.  One of the most striking comments/observations my son made was, the second time he wore them (1st profile after the initial skate) was in an evaluation camp where he wore the TF9s for two back to back games.  This was  a risk, but his Makos were hurting his feet so bad we didn't think he could make it through two full games, so, wanted one game to adapt before leaving the final impression in the second game.  He had played a game the day before and could barely skate at the end his feet were hurting so bad.  As I noted in my comments up the thread, he looked observably faster to me.  I could tell he was unsure in them and playing conservative so as not to trip over himself, but still, by the second game was rushing full ice and jumping in the O zone. 

Anyway, when he came out to the car, aside from the speed comment, he said he felt less tired after two games in the TF9s than one game in the Makos.

Again, not sure where the energy losses were coming from, but there certainly were energy losses.  The Mako is a pretty darn soft boot. 

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13 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Anyway, when he came out to the car, aside from the speed comment, he said he felt less tired after two games in the TF9s than one game in the Makos.

Again, not sure where the energy losses were coming from, but there certainly were energy losses.  The Mako is a pretty darn soft boot. 

Was he in the original Mako or the Mako II? Both are softer than the Trues I have felt, but having owned the original Mako, Mako II and the M7, I'd say the originals are definitely the softest and break down the fastest. I definitely noticed an increase in energy transfer when I switched from the original Makos to the Mako II's for ice and converted original Makos to M7's in roller (even the $400 M7s were stiffer than the original Makos and have held up better).

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1 hour ago, althoma1 said:

Was he in the original Mako or the Mako II? Both are softer than the Trues I have felt, but having owned the original Mako, Mako II and the M7, I'd say the originals are definitely the softest and break down the fastest. I definitely noticed an increase in energy transfer when I switched from the original Makos to the Mako II's for ice and converted original Makos to M7's in roller (even the $400 M7s were stiffer than the original Makos and have held up better).

OGs?  Heck, haven't seen those for years.  I think his last pair were Mako IIs.  He's had M7 and M8s as has my daughter.  His last pair was actually a pair I had in reserve for myself, which he got, because TFs were not available yet and he needed new skates pronto.  I believe they are MIIs.

The current ones I'm using are on their last leg, so, given the path we've gone down with him, I'm thinking I might give the TF7s a try for myself.  My modifications are much more substantial than his though, so, I'm not enthused about starting from scratch.  It's the journey that makes it interesting though, right?  ... 😉 

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Any Vapor guys gotten into a TF9? I was offered a pair at too good a price to pass up and have been wanting to give them a try anyway. I’ll likely convert them into inline skates, but wanted to see if anyone that previously used Vapors had tried the Trues. 

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I'd be concerned about the width honestly. Vapors are way too shallow for me, but in width I'm at least an EE if not wider and from trying the TFs I didn't feel like I needed a W, so the R are definitely. If you're a Vapor D these might be very wide in the forefoot but ymmv. Not sure if a bake with the wrap will let them fit tighter. 

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1 hour ago, Westside said:

Any Vapor guys gotten into a TF9? I was offered a pair at too good a price to pass up and have been wanting to give them a try anyway. I’ll likely convert them into inline skates, but wanted to see if anyone that previously used Vapors had tried the Trues. 

The forefoot might be a little wide for you in you wear any Vapor skates before the 2X Pro D width, the 2X Pro D was a little wider than the previous 1x models and such.

What is the widest measurement of your forefoot? 

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1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

I'd be concerned about the width honestly. Vapors are way too shallow for me, but in width I'm at least an EE if not wider and from trying the TFs I didn't feel like I needed a W, so the R are definitely. If you're a Vapor D these might be very wide in the forefoot but ymmv. Not sure if a bake with the wrap will let them fit tighter. 

I’m definitely on the border with shallowness of vapors and honestly should be in a supreme boot, but I’ve worn multiple vapor models for over a decade so I’m used to them at this point. 

1 hour ago, PBH said:

The forefoot might be a little wide for you in you wear any Vapor skates before the 2X Pro D width, the 2X Pro D was a little wider than the previous 1x models and such.

What is the widest measurement of your forefoot? 

Yeah, my current skates are from the 2017 vapor range so pre-2x, but it sounds like that would be a good thing? Damn, I just had my feet on a brannock scale today but don’t recall the width measurement 

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1 hour ago, Westside said:

I’m definitely on the border with shallowness of vapors and honestly should be in a supreme boot, but I’ve worn multiple vapor models for over a decade so I’m used to them at this point. 

I hear that. I'm the same but really should be in the Nexus and wear Supreme instead. I did well with the Nexus 1000 but when I tried the 1N I felt like the new eyelet locks prevented that great wrap that the deeper boot gave me, so I went Supreme.

I'm lucky I don't get any lace bite for some reason, because the pencil test is not even close for me, I fail with flying colors. 

In this case though, you might be able to make the TFs work, you should be ok on depth, but the width in the forefoot might feel sloppy. Are you able to try them on? 

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No, which is obviously concerning for a skate I’ve never worn before, but based on what they’re going for on the secondhand market I would be able to get my money back without much trouble. I appreciate the insight about forefoot width. Gives me something to think about.
 

Would it even be worth trying on a pair at a store? Seems as though the consensus is that you *have* to bake them before you know if they fit, but if thermoformability is mostly around the ankle, would I be able to properly judge forefoot width straight outta the box? 

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It's not gonna be the final say, but if there way too wide then you'll be able to tell even without baking. Also, you can kinda feel if something goes but feels like it will open up more. In that case you might go a half size down and then bake again. Maybe order a pair from IW to try on? 

Edited by Miller55

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12 hours ago, Westside said:

I’m definitely on the border with shallowness of vapors and honestly should be in a supreme boot, but I’ve worn multiple vapor models for over a decade so I’m used to them at this point. 

Yeah, my current skates are from the 2017 vapor range so pre-2x, but it sounds like that would be a good thing? Damn, I just had my feet on a brannock scale today but don’t recall the width measurement 

Just use a tape measure. 

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This thread was extremely helpful in getting a pair of TF9 that fit properly. Thank you all. I went from a Bauer 8.5D to a True 8R. Once baked they fit both my feet perfectly! Wondering if anyone has tried the felt t-guard tongue with these? The stock tongue seems fine, but from a looks perspective, I prefer traditional felt. 

Mounted the R1's to the Trues and removed most of the colorful graphics as they were too loud for me. Very happy I made the jump to these. Now I just hope they hold up durability-wise.

DSCF3978-vi.jpg

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32 minutes ago, Westside said:

This thread was extremely helpful in getting a pair of TF9 that fit properly. Thank you all. I went from a Bauer 8.5D to a True 8R. Once baked they fit both my feet perfectly! Wondering if anyone has tried the felt t-guard tongue with these? The stock tongue seems fine, but from a looks perspective, I prefer traditional felt. 

Mounted the R1's to the Trues and removed most of the colorful graphics as they were too loud for me. Very happy I made the jump to these. Now I just hope they hold up durability-wise.

DSCF3978-vi.jpg

I like that you colored in the blue/white details. 

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