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TRUE TF9/TF7 skates

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On a related note, for once such an offer also extends to Europe, at least I see European shops (e.g. HPS) offering this promotion - usually this is limited to USA/CAN.

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OK, so, been a while since I contributed.  Just gave my son some TF9s for Chrstmas since he was on his last (our last ) pair of Makos and even steel was becoming impossible to find.  A couple notes to start

1) He was 6.5 in Mako and commenting that he felt they were getting small.  He got 6.5 TF9s as a present.  After baking, he is confident the 6.5 TF9s are too large.  I think it has  been a consistent theme in this thread that the TF series should size down (so, 1/2 size or more smaller than other skates you are coming from). 

2) Holder (and therefore runner) length.  I was not aware of this issue until last night when planning how to assess any problem areas that might come up.  Since his Makos are near the end, he needs to move to his new skates ASAP while things are kind of slow over Christmas.  Now I see that if he sticks with stock setup, he will be on a shorter holder and therefore less steel.... ugghhhh.  Why did they do this?  For agility?  Just curious, I would assume there must be a reason.  A 254 on a 6.5 is just too short even if we put an 11ft radius on it.  I'm not sure what the holder will be on the 6, but I assume not shorter?  I really don't want to swap holders as that creates rivet issues, but jeez, also don't want less steel on the ice.  I'm positive he will notice and not be happy. 

3) On the positive side, the finish seems much more polished than what I've seen with the customs. 

4) After baking, he commented they felt as nice as his Makos, just too long.  So, that's encouraging. 

Anyway, if anybody has any idea why they went with shorter holders/runners, I'd like to know.

Thanks,

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1 hour ago, smcgreg said:

OK, so, been a while since I contributed.  Just gave my son some TF9s for Chrstmas since he was on his last (our last ) pair of Makos and even steel was becoming impossible to find.  A couple notes to start

1) He was 6.5 in Mako and commenting that he felt they were getting small.  He got 6.5 TF9s as a present.  After baking, he is confident the 6.5 TF9s are too large.  I think it has  been a consistent theme in this thread that the TF series should size down (so, 1/2 size or more smaller than other skates you are coming from). 

2) Holder (and therefore runner) length.  I was not aware of this issue until last night when planning how to assess any problem areas that might come up.  Since his Makos are near the end, he needs to move to his new skates ASAP while things are kind of slow over Christmas.  Now I see that if he sticks with stock setup, he will be on a shorter holder and therefore less steel.... ugghhhh.  Why did they do this?  For agility?  Just curious, I would assume there must be a reason.  A 254 on a 6.5 is just too short even if we put an 11ft radius on it.  I'm not sure what the holder will be on the 6, but I assume not shorter?  I really don't want to swap holders as that creates rivet issues, but jeez, also don't want less steel on the ice.  I'm positive he will notice and not be happy. 

3) On the positive side, the finish seems much more polished than what I've seen with the customs. 

4) After baking, he commented they felt as nice as his Makos, just too long.  So, that's encouraging. 

Anyway, if anybody has any idea why they went with shorter holders/runners, I'd like to know.

Thanks,

Merry Christmas.

i liked reading you experience with the sizing of the TF9 I have also heard similar accounts.

as far as the holder sizing, almost all of the skates that my sons have worn (Bauer and Reebok/CCM) in a 6 - 6.5D have all been mounted on 254s out of the box. 

263 holders were mounted on the Bauer’s starting with the size 7.

my mako 2 in 8EE have 272 and my makos in 9 have 280s.

holder sizing seems to be consistent.

 

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3 minutes ago, sturdy22 said:

Merry Christmas.

i liked reading you experience with the sizing of the TF9 I have also heard similar accounts.

as far as the holder sizing, almost all of the skates that my sons have worn (Bauer and Reebok/CCM) in a 6 - 6.5D have all been mounted on 254s out of the box. 

263 holders were mounted on the Bauer’s starting with the size 7.

my mako 2 in 8EE have 272 and my makos in 9 have 280s.

holder sizing seems to be consistent.

 

Hmm... really?  both of us wear 6.5 in Makos.  He actually took my last pair when he grew into that size.  The Mako 6.5s are 263s, so, I assumed that was standard for the size. 

Thanks for setting me straight.  I'm sure we'll still need to do something about it, because even though I won't mention it, I know he'll notice the shorter runner as he uses very long strides for his size. 

I appreciate the input.

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8 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

Hmm... really?  both of us wear 6.5 in Makos.  He actually took my last pair when he grew into that size.  The Mako 6.5s are 263s, so, I assumed that was standard for the size. 

Thanks for setting me straight.  I'm sure we'll still need to do something about it, because even though I won't mention it, I know he'll notice the shorter runner as he uses very long strides for his size. 

I appreciate the input.

No problem. I don’t know anything about the holder sizing on makos in a 6.5. Those could be the odd size that came with 263.

I assume yours were D width?

I have been looking at the TF9 or TF7 for myself once I my makos are done. I had a pair of second hand VH customs in a 8.5 EE that I couldn’t get my foot in so the stock pairs interest me. I’m way past the days of needing custom made skates

 

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What I don't get is that if a 6.5 for tf9 is the same as 7 in Bauer/ccm, wouldn't the holder still remain the same (263), since both are the same physical length? Unless the shift holder doesn't max out on the length of the skate from heel to toe, and true has it so the holder always comes short of the toe a bit. 

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On 12/25/2020 at 6:01 PM, Sniper9 said:

What I don't get is that if a 6.5 for tf9 is the same as 7 in Bauer/ccm, wouldn't the holder still remain the same (263), since both are the same physical length? Unless the shift holder doesn't max out on the length of the skate from heel to toe, and true has it so the holder always comes short of the toe a bit. 

I am going to ignore all of the Fit1/2/3 stuff from Bauer and just focus on standard D and EE fits for simplicity skate. When you go down a half size from a 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 size skate you usually end up with a smaller holder. 

This gets even more complicated when you add width it's the equation. Example:

Bauer 6.5D = 254
Bauer 6.5EE = 263
Bauer 7D = 263
Bauer 7.5D = 263
Bauer 7.5EE = 272
Bauer 8.0D = 272
Bauer 8.0EE = 272

Now imagine you wear a Bauer 7.5EE and therefore skate on a 272 holder and now need a size 7 or smaller TRUE skate. You would be going from 272 to 263 or a 254. 

Let's take this a step further. Imagine you are going from a 7.5EE Bauer to a 6.5 TRUE skate, you would be going from a 272 to a 254. 

Does this make things a little more clear? Perhaps clear as mud in some ways. Let's please not get CCM and Mako sizing added to this as well since that in itself is a whole other can of worms. 

With all of this being said I really wish that manufacturers would all standardize skate length and holder sizing, but that is likely not going to happen in my lifetime. 

Edited by SkateWorksPNW
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5 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

Bauer 6.5D = 254
Bauer 6.5EE = 263
Bauer 7.5D = 263
Bauer 7.5EE = 272 

I think it was back when nxg was released, I measured every Bauer boot from size 6 to 12 and noted that as well as the holder change, the length of the boot also changed - EE was around 2mm-3mm longer than a D. I don't know if that is still the case today but it offers up a potential reason why the holder size is different.

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1 hour ago, Vet88 said:

I think it was back when nxg was released, I measured every Bauer boot from size 6 to 12 and noted that as well as the holder change, the length of the boot also changed - EE was around 2mm-3mm longer than a D. I don't know if that is still the case today but it offers up a potential reason why the holder size is different.

Correct, extra wide skates are usually slightly longer than a standard. This is still accurate as of today.  

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13 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I am going to ignore all of the Fit1/2/3 stuff from Bauer and just focus on standard D and EE fits for simplicity skate. When you go down a half size from a 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 size skate you usually end up with a smaller holder. 

This gets even more complicated when you add width it's the equation. Example:

Bauer 6.5D = 254
Bauer 6.5EE = 263
Bauer 7D = 263
Bauer 7.5D = 263
Bauer 7.5EE = 272
Bauer 8.0D = 272
Bauer 8.0EE = 272

Now imagine you wear a Bauer 7.5EE and therefore skate on a 272 holder and now need a size 7 or smaller TRUE skate. You would be going from 272 to 263 or a 254. 

Let's take this a step further. Imagine you are going from a 7.5EE TRUE to a 6.5 TRUE skate, you would be going from a 272 to a 254. 

Does this make things a little more clear? Perhaps clear as mud in some ways. Let's please not get CCM and Mako sizing added to this as well since that in itself is a whole other can of worms. 

With all of this being said I really wish that manufacturers would all standardize skate length and holder sizing, but that is likely not going to happen in my lifetime. 

As usual, I really don't know much other than my own experience and in particular, for my kids trying to figure out how to optimize things for them.  I just know every time my son's gone up a size where the steel got longer, he loved it. So, going from his 5.5 Makos to 6.5s he went up again and was happy.  At this point, I'm not sure if going down in holder length might be better?  Agility is so much more important than top end speed once they're into the Midget years.  So, I'm open to it being a beneficial change, I just don't think he'll see it that way.

So, question for those experienced in such things, would the difference in 254 and 263 be substantial enough to drill new holes if he wanted a 263 on size 6 TF9s?  I'm not enthused about changing holders, because that opens a whole new can of worms, but if going that route, I assume the holes won't line up, so, is it even possible to put a 263 on instead of a 254? 

Thanks for the input.

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I went down the holder size in the retail true, from 7.5 custom true with 272 to retail tf9 size 7 with a 263 and I will be swapping them out for 272 holders, just couldn’t get 100% comfortable on them.

I’ve been putting inline chassis on ice boots since the 90’s, I think putting a larger holder on the trues won’t be an issue when drilling new holes. Just find a reputable shop who knows what they’re doing and you’ll be fine. If you’re worried about any of the ‘old’ holes maybe ask the shop where you’re having the holders swapped to use some epoxy to fill them.

Also make sure you ask that the shop is using the correct size rivets for the true’s. I remember reading in the other True thread that True uses a different rivet size to bite into the outsole. I forget what size that rivet needs to be maybe@JR Boucicaut can remind me. 

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20 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

I am going to ignore all of the Fit1/2/3 stuff from Bauer and just focus on standard D and EE fits for simplicity skate. When you go down a half size from a 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 size skate you usually end up with a smaller holder. 

This gets even more complicated when you add width it's the equation. Example:

Bauer 6.5D = 254
Bauer 6.5EE = 263
Bauer 7D = 263
Bauer 7.5D = 263
Bauer 7.5EE = 272
Bauer 8.0D = 272
Bauer 8.0EE = 272

Now imagine you wear a Bauer 7.5EE and therefore skate on a 272 holder and now need a size 7 or smaller TRUE skate. You would be going from 272 to 263 or a 254. 

Let's take this a step further. Imagine you are going from a 7.5EE TRUE to a 6.5 TRUE skate, you would be going from a 272 to a 254. 

Does this make things a little more clear? Perhaps clear as mud in some ways. Let's please not get CCM and Mako sizing added to this as well since that in itself is a whole other can of worms. 

With all of this being said I really wish that manufacturers would all standardize skate length and holder sizing, but that is likely not going to happen in my lifetime. 

 I get all this. What I don't get is if the length of a tf9 6.5d skate is supposedly the same as a 7d Bauer, shouldn't both be using the same holder length, regardless of the number size printed on the skate. 

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3 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

 I get all this. What I don't get is if the length of a tf9 6.5d skate is supposedly the same as a 7d Bauer, shouldn't both be using the same holder length, regardless of the number size printed on the skate. 

The answer is yes, it should, and nevertheless, it isn't. Basically I think this is everyone's complaint, that the number of the size is irrelevant, it's the length of the skate matched with the holder. It's one of the reasons why, as good of a deal as the TF skates are, that deal is pretty much dead when you have to swap holders and pay an extra 1-200 bucks and then try to sell the shift holders which nobody really wants

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14 hours ago, Miller55 said:

The answer is yes, it should, and nevertheless, it isn't. Basically I think this is everyone's complaint, that the number of the size is irrelevant, it's the length of the skate matched with the holder. It's one of the reasons why, as good of a deal as the TF skates are, that deal is pretty much dead when you have to swap holders and pay an extra 1-200 bucks and then try to sell the shift holders which nobody really wants

Bingo. 

FWIW, I have been trying to explain this situation to TRUE but they still insist that their skate sizing is correct as is the matching of holder size to skate size. 

Sigh. 

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On 12/26/2020 at 8:54 AM, smcgreg said:

As usual, I really don't know much other than my own experience and in particular, for my kids trying to figure out how to optimize things for them.  I just know every time my son's gone up a size where the steel got longer, he loved it. So, going from his 5.5 Makos to 6.5s he went up again and was happy.  At this point, I'm not sure if going down in holder length might be better?  Agility is so much more important than top end speed once they're into the Midget years.  So, I'm open to it being a beneficial change, I just don't think he'll see it that way.

So, question for those experienced in such things, would the difference in 254 and 263 be substantial enough to drill new holes if he wanted a 263 on size 6 TF9s?  I'm not enthused about changing holders, because that opens a whole new can of worms, but if going that route, I assume the holes won't line up, so, is it even possible to put a 263 on instead of a 254? 

Thanks for the input.

If you look at many pros skates a significant number of them have oversized holders. I also skate on oversized holders as well and cannot go down in size without it affecting my sense of balance. 

I don't think a longer holder allows greater steel to work with, as you are only using a very minimal amount of steel when skating and that is dictated by the profile and hollow, regardless if its pushing or gliding, but I feel the longer holder provides a greater amount of surface area which does affect balance and such. 

I do think there are limits though to oversizing. I had a WHL player last year who was wearing a size 6 skate with 280 holders. Looking at his steel you could clearly see what portions of the blade he was using when skating and I made the recommendation to drop him to a 272. The trainer adjusted his backup pair of skates to a 272 without telling the player and when the player tested them he said he loved the new profile. We didn't adjust his profile at all, just gave him a slightly smaller holder and adjusted the balance point. 

TLDR: Stick with a 263 the longer holders you can without them extending off the toe or heel of the boot. 

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1 hour ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

If you look at many pros skates a significant number of them have oversized holders. I also skate on oversized holders as well and cannot go down in size without it affecting my sense of balance. 

I don't think a longer holder allows greater steel to work with, as you are only using a very minimal amount of steel when skating and that is dictated by the profile and hollow, regardless if its pushing or gliding, but I feel the longer holder provides a greater amount of surface area which does affect balance and such. 

I do think there are limits though to oversizing. I had a WHL player last year who was wearing a size 6 skate with 280 holders. Looking at his steel you could clearly see what portions of the blade he was using when skating and I made the recommendation to drop him to a 272. The trainer adjusted his backup pair of skates to a 272 without telling the player and when the player tested them he said he loved the new profile. We didn't adjust his profile at all, just gave him a slightly smaller holder and adjusted the balance point. 

TLDR: Stick with a 263 the longer holders you can without them extending off the toe or heel of the boot. 

You may be right about the amount of blade available for contact with strides, but given your impression about stability, it could still be a factor.  Greater stability on the support foot could result in greater stride length even if there isn't any more steel practically available for the push.  You get the same effect, just for a different reason.  Unfortunately my son is very attuned to such things and will pick  up on it immediately I am sure.  My daughter on the other hand could skate equally well on a pair of butter knives or top end skates without knowing the difference.  My point is, whatever the underlying reason, I am certain it will be noticeable (I know I would notice it). 

I am of the same mind as your recommendation, but I just hate swapping holders.  It invariably leads to rivet issues.  Oh well, I should have known it wouldn't be simple to just swap over.

Thanks,

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38 minutes ago, smcgreg said:

You may be right about the amount of blade available for contact with strides, but given your impression about stability, it could still be a factor.  Greater stability on the support foot could result in greater stride length even if there isn't any more steel practically available for the push.  You get the same effect, just for a different reason.  Unfortunately my son is very attuned to such things and will pick  up on it immediately I am sure.  My daughter on the other hand could skate equally well on a pair of butter knives or top end skates without knowing the difference.  My point is, whatever the underlying reason, I am certain it will be noticeable (I know I would notice it). 

I am of the same mind as your recommendation, but I just hate swapping holders.  It invariably leads to rivet issues.  Oh well, I should have known it wouldn't be simple to just swap over.

Thanks,

If he likes TRUE skates and they fit him well you can usually find pro stock models that are new or almost new on sidelineswap for good prices. These usually have the right size holders mounted.

https://sidelineswap.com/shop/hockey/skates/player-skates/l72?brand[]=23199&skate-size[]=23302&skate-size[]=23303&skate-size[]=23301&skate-size[]=23304&skate-size[]=23305

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4 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

If you look at many pros skates a significant number of them have oversized holders. I also skate on oversized holders as well and cannot go down in size without it affecting my sense of balance. 

I don't think a longer holder allows greater steel to work with, as you are only using a very minimal amount of steel when skating and that is dictated by the profile and hollow, regardless if its pushing or gliding, but I feel the longer holder provides a greater amount of surface area which does affect balance and such. 

I do think there are limits though to oversizing. I had a WHL player last year who was wearing a size 6 skate with 280 holders. Looking at his steel you could clearly see what portions of the blade he was using when skating and I made the recommendation to drop him to a 272. The trainer adjusted his backup pair of skates to a 272 without telling the player and when the player tested them he said he loved the new profile. We didn't adjust his profile at all, just gave him a slightly smaller holder and adjusted the balance point. 

TLDR: Stick with a 263 the longer holders you can without them extending off the toe or heel of the boot. 

Comparing three holder sizes relative to a given boot size--holder one size down, holder standard to the boot, holder one size up--and not changing anything of the steel specs other than the size difference: what would be the most prominent effect, position of the balance point relative to the foot?

With the WHL player, how did you adjust the balance point on the 272 set? To match where it was on the 280 set or in some new location?

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On 12/26/2020 at 10:54 AM, smcgreg said:

As usual, I really don't know much other than my own experience and in particular, for my kids trying to figure out how to optimize things for them.  I just know every time my son's gone up a size where the steel got longer, he loved it. So, going from his 5.5 Makos to 6.5s he went up again and was happy.  At this point, I'm not sure if going down in holder length might be better?  Agility is so much more important than top end speed once they're into the Midget years.  So, I'm open to it being a beneficial change, I just don't think he'll see it that way.

So, question for those experienced in such things, would the difference in 254 and 263 be substantial enough to drill new holes if he wanted a 263 on size 6 TF9s?  I'm not enthused about changing holders, because that opens a whole new can of worms, but if going that route, I assume the holes won't line up, so, is it even possible to put a 263 on instead of a 254? 

Thanks for the input.

Your son was happy each time he went up a size because as he continues to grow the location of the balance point needs to be adjusted. As long as the balance point is in the right place under the foot, he should feel no difference should he go down a holder size.

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1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

Your son was happy each time he went up a size because as he continues to grow the location of the balance point needs to be adjusted. As long as the balance point is in the right place under the foot, he should feel no difference should he go down a holder size.

True.... or.... it could be that he liked the longer steel.  Just like I like a 3/4 radius and he can't stand anything shallower than a 1/2.  And he likes an 11 ft and I like a 10.  He likes the Alpha and I like a Covert.  Yours is a pretty emphatic statement for something as nebulous as what we're discussing without any knowledge of the underlying facts. 

Others have stated they like a longer runner as well.  Who knows why?

Just sayin.....

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How stiff are the tf7/9 compared to other skates? My wife got a gift card to Pure Hockey and I’m trying to nudge her to try Trues since she’s never been 100% happy with her skates (various iterations of supreme 170/180 level, EE). Pure seems like they only have the TF9, and my worry is they might be too stiff. 

I know it’s primarily a try it on and see how it feels to you type thing, but on ice feel is different than in store. 

Need to check and see if they are honoring the 30 day thing. 

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52 minutes ago, start_today said:

How stiff are the tf7/9 compared to other skates? My wife got a gift card to Pure Hockey and I’m trying to nudge her to try Trues since she’s never been 100% happy with her skates (various iterations of supreme 170/180 level, EE). Pure seems like they only have the TF9, and my worry is they might be too stiff. 

If she is really a true EE fit I doubt you will find any wide TF9's at Pure Hockey.

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4 hours ago, start_today said:

How stiff are the tf7/9 compared to other skates? My wife got a gift card to Pure Hockey and I’m trying to nudge her to try Trues since she’s never been 100% happy with her skates (various iterations of supreme 170/180 level, EE). Pure seems like they only have the TF9, and my worry is they might be too stiff. 

I know it’s primarily a try it on and see how it feels to you type thing, but on ice feel is different than in store. 

Need to check and see if they are honoring the 30 day thing. 

The TF7 is a very stiff skate, only slightly softer than a TF9. I would recommend a TF7 for her. 

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On 9/1/2020 at 8:54 PM, Thorisson#3 said:

Bought the TF9's, fit was so-so out of the box... After baking at home (and shrink wrapping) the heel is 100% locked in and comfy, but a little room in the forefoot, thinking about baking again and shrink wrapping the forefoot section.

However, the lace bite i'm getting is just ridiculous... I've tried lacing the skates inwards out, outwards in, different lace bite lacing methods... I'm not failing the "pencil test"... I've tried to contact true support (e-mail) to try to see if they will ship me a different tongue or something... 9 days and 2 emails later, no answer... 😞 

I'll be skating in my MX3's tonight ... sadly.

 

Hi,

Did you solve your tongue problem ?

I just get the tf9 and the tongue puts too much pressure on 1 spot on the top of my feet. I think I will have to change the tongue. Did true helped you ? The pencil test is ok, I find the tongue very thick in the central part.

Which tongue should I try ? The more traditionnal tf7 tongue would probably be better.

I get the tf9 skates in 7R. The length seems good, maybe 1 or 2 mm longer than the actual ccm skate I have (jetspeed in 7EE, tacks in 7EE)

The volume is bigger than the jetspeed and close to the tacks.

Edited by Paulkouhan

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To renew my comments on this skate based on the experience with my son.  I guess I should mention his particulars:  15 yr old.  HS/AAA caliber.  Skates 5+ times per week.  Old skate is Mako.

So, we got him 6.5 TF9s for Christmas and determined those were too big.  So, we had to go down a size (or more, since the Makos were starting to hurt).  We went with 6s after trying 5.5s as well.  After baking he was thrilled.  They felt as comfy and well-fitting as his Makos.  So, he was excited to skate on them for the first time.  First impressions after the first skate, he was less than thrilled.  I've been very rigorous in keeping my expectations to myself.  I assumed there would be some major differences to deal with, but didn't want to influence his impressions and thought some things might be different, but better with adaptation.  Anyway....

1.  Boot was still comfy, so, no issue there.  Coming from Makos, that's a pretty strong testament.  Not one complaint on the first skate after coming from the most comfortable skate ever made... (retail).

2. Boot seemed heavy.  (I anticipated this one). 

3.  Said if felt like going from rollerblades back to ice.... no for-aft stability. 

4.  Turns were good.

5.  Shot sucked.  (again, I anticipated this since there is more height off the ice than his Makos).

6.  Said if telt like ski boots when you walk and you're kicked forward/pushed forward.

Differences that are obvious aside from the boot that can explain some of these observations. 

1.  Pitch seems aggressive on the TF9s.  We have been profiling the Makos with a negative 2 to reduce the aggressiveness of the CXN pitch and make it more like a Vapor.  Measuring with a tape measure, there is still an extra 1/4in difference from back to front vs the Makos, so, that explains #6 above.

2. It seems the stock profile is around 9ft?  Coming from an 11 ft on him Makos, that would explain #3 above, I think.  This might also explain why turns were better #4?  Shorter radius should make for better tight turns, correct?

3.  the height difference compared to his Makos is about 1/2 in at the back and about 1/4 in at the front (measure with tape measure, so, grain of salt).  So, this would explain #5 due to stick being too short. 

So.... it seems like most of the issues can be addressed with a profile (11 ft and -1 pitch) and lengthening the stick 1/4 to 1/2 in. 

The only issue remaining would be weight. .....  So, the dilemma is, stick with them and profile or start the search for a different skate that fits (tall order) and weighs less. 

Sorry for lots of words, but hopefully it helps others who may be dealing with similar issues. 

 

 

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