Graf video with Mr. Graf

[iceman8310 105]

Always Will find the process interesting no matter the company.  

[flip12 714]

Watched it. It was a weird video. Was it an infomercial? Chris and his crew were nowhere visible in it at all. Also a bit random with the Special Mr. Graf 82 Edition skates. Why 82? 80 makes more sense to celebrate.

Impressive they made the Cobra in a year. I know it has a lot in common with Tuuk Custom+, but it also has some nice improvements in comparison. Maybe that's not that surprising since they knew figure skating so well at the time.

[dasuchin 20]

1 hour ago, flip12 said:

Watched it. It was a weird video. Was it an infomercial? Chris and his crew were nowhere visible in it at all. Also a bit random with the Special Mr. Graf 82 Edition skates. Why 82? 80 makes more sense to celebrate.

Impressive they made the Cobra in a year. I know it has a lot in common with Tuuk Custom+, but it also has some nice improvements in comparison. Maybe that's not that surprising since they knew figure skating so well at the time.

I mean, the description clearly says it's a mini documentary. Did you even watch the video? The dude is 82 years old, so 82 skates, not 80.

[Leif 161]

On 2/16/2024 at 5:15 PM, flip12 said:

Watched it. It was a weird video. Was it an infomercial? Chris and his crew were nowhere visible in it at all. Also a bit random with the Special Mr. Graf 82 Edition skates. Why 82? 80 makes more sense to celebrate.

Impressive they made the Cobra in a year. I know it has a lot in common with Tuuk Custom+, but it also has some nice improvements in comparison. Maybe that's not that surprising since they knew figure skating so well at the time.

They do a lot of infomercials. They might even have been paid to take a camera crew over to Switzerland. Do these old skates still hold water? Or have they been overtaken by modern designs? I know a very good skater and player who swears by his Graf hockey skates. 

Edited February 17 by Leif
Fixed spelling mistakes

[flip12 714]

5 hours ago, Leif said:

They do a lot of infomercials. They might even have been paid to take a camera crew over to Switzerland. Do these old skates still hold water? Or have they been overtaken by modern designs? Imknow a bery good skater and player who swears by his Graf hockey skates. 

There are quite a few who do. My personal standard is Graf. They nailed so many details it’s insane. Those have slowly been adopted by other brands, though, eliminating their comfort advantage, which was their calling card during their North American expansion in the 90’s and 00’s. Before the one90 dropped Graf had 25% of NHL All-Stars in their skates. They were a niche brand but that was huge for their visibility.

[acura9927 4]

I have the Graf Peakspeed 4700. Found 2 pairs of new old stock at Play it again sports. Wonderful fit for pretty much everyone. Only pair of skates other than True Catalyst for me that did not pinch or literally just hurt sticking my foot in. I think a lot of people want them to come back here. 

[BenBreeg 493]

I am tempted to pick up a pair.  I lusted after them.  There was a custom Graf thread here years ago, I wanted a pair so bad.

[helmet91 15]

I always wanted a pair of Grafs back in the 90s - Brian Leetch (my favorite player) wore them.  LOL

I don't skate/play nearly as much these days (too busy running my kids around all over the place for their practices/games/tournaments/camps), but my CCM Ultra Tacks (2018?) are killing me whenever I'm out on the ice.  Maybe I need to take a road trip down to Switzerland...

Edited February 20 by helmet91

[xstartxtodayx 343]

On 2/17/2024 at 6:36 AM, Leif said:

They do a lot of infomercials. They might even have been paid to take a camera crew over to Switzerland. Do these old skates still hold water? Or have they been overtaken by modern designs? I know a very good skater and player who swears by his Graf hockey skates. 

That Hockey Tutorial guy will endorse anything for the right price, he has no shame lol, I stopped watching his stuff after the whole charity scandal and just getting tired of biased reviews.  He doesn't hold a candle to Hills' "Hockey Reviews" page in terms of reviews.  With that off my chest, I did enjoy the Graf video, my 705's I got in the mid 90's were my favorite skates I ever owned, partially because the brand had so much history and just stood out over Bauer/CCM at the time (it was like going for a Porsche over a Ford), and partially because they just felt so good on my feet.  I haven't seen or tried any of their new offerings but they'll always have a place in my heart. 

[BenBreeg 493]

7 hours ago, xstartxtodayx said:

That Hockey Tutorial guy will endorse anything for the right price, he has no shame lol, I stopped watching his stuff after the whole charity scandal and just getting tired of biased reviews.  He doesn't hold a candle to Hills' "Hockey Reviews" page in terms of reviews.  With that off my chest, I did enjoy the Graf video, my 705's I got in the mid 90's were my favorite skates I ever owned, partially because the brand had so much history and just stood out over Bauer/CCM at the time (it was like going for a Porsche over a Ford), and partially because they just felt so good on my feet.  I haven't seen or tried any of their new offerings but they'll always have a place in my heart. 

Yeah, I stopped watching Hockey Tutorials years ago.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

Loved the video.  And I loved my 703's.  Held on to them for 13 years, unfortunately at the time they gave out, composite boots were on the market and I made the switch.  Maybe someday I'll find myself back in them.

[flip12 714]

13 hours ago, MyBoxersSayJoe said:

Loved the video.  And I loved my 703's.  Held on to them for 13 years, unfortunately at the time they gave out, composite boots were on the market and I made the switch.  Maybe someday I'll find myself back in them.

They really ought to find a way to channel the success of the 703 into modern tech. They don't need to radically alter any of the major function points, just upgrade the construction. That's proven tricky over the last few decades, however.

[MyBoxersSayJoe 133]

On 2/21/2024 at 3:19 PM, flip12 said:

They really ought to find a way to channel the success of the 703 into modern tech. They don't need to radically alter any of the major function points, just upgrade the construction. That's proven tricky over the last few decades, however.

Yeah, every once in a while I'll pick them up and they feel like bricks.  But I did my best skating and the best years of playing were spent in them.  If anything, I have weak ankles now because the support of composite boots.

[VegasHockey 1280]

Graf needs to evolve. Maybe this is an option for Dave Cruikshank to get invovled to build his supposed skate. 

[caseyjones 26]

As a big Graf guy who recently just went modern with Machs this video had me longing for Graf’s again.  If I were them, I would stick to the classic models and classic looks and just build them in composite form and some of the newer (sometimes gimmicky) features.  I think people are getting tired of the radical color designs on all the new skates (I was never a fan of this) and I think Graf would benefit there.  New companies moved to the 3 fit system whereas Graf has been doing this for decades with their different models of skates.  I would love a full composite heat moldable 707 with a 703 heel and original graphics.  

[VegasHockey 1280]

4 hours ago, caseyjones said:

As a big Graf guy who recently just went modern with Machs this video had me longing for Graf’s again.  If I were them, I would stick to the classic models and classic looks and just build them in composite form and some of the newer (sometimes gimmicky) features.  I think people are getting tired of the radical color designs on all the new skates (I was never a fan of this) and I think Graf would benefit there.  New companies moved to the 3 fit system whereas Graf has been doing this for decades with their different models of skates.  I would love a full composite heat moldable 707 with a 703 heel and original graphics.  

The issue is Graf skates are the technological equivalent to a dinosaur. If they offered the same performance as other brands, we would see players of all levels using them more often. I had Graf skates when I was young and played prep at Shattuck and in the EJHL/ECHL. I loved those skates, and they worked well for me back then, but I assume if I wore them now, I would not have the same impression. 

Edited February 24 by VegasHockey

[flip12 714]

59 minutes ago, VegasHockey said:

The issue is Graf skates are the technological equivalent to a dinosaur. If they offered the same performance as other brands, we would see players of all levels using them more often. I had Graf skates when I was young and played prep at Shattuck and in the EJHL/ECHL. I loved those skates, and they worked well for me back then, but I assume if I wore them now, I would not have the same impression. 

Don’t assume. You’d do us all a huge favor if you tried them again and did a review. You know current offerings better than anyone as well as what Grafs were like compared to the competition in Graf’s glory days.

5 hours ago, caseyjones said:

As a big Graf guy who recently just went modern with Machs this video had me longing for Graf’s again.  If I were them, I would stick to the classic models and classic looks and just build them in composite form and some of the newer (sometimes gimmicky) features.  I think people are getting tired of the radical color designs on all the new skates (I was never a fan of this) and I think Graf would benefit there.  New companies moved to the 3 fit system whereas Graf has been doing this for decades with their different models of skates.  I would love a full composite heat moldable 707 with a 703 heel and original graphics.  

That’s more or less what Graf tried, and when that wasn’t working they started to make their skate patterns more along the lines of other manufacturers. That hasn’t helped either.

Graf wasn’t really on anything equivalent to the 3 Fit system. Sure they had different fits, but those fits were paired with different models, each with their own features. If you liked the 703 construction but had a deep foot, you were out of luck.

Grafs are still the best skates I’ve ever skated in. Cobras (in their classic 11’ rocker config.) are still by far the holder and steel spec. combo that suit me best. I really wish they would make a comeback. I just don’t see the signs of it.

Edited February 24 by flip12

[start_today 770]

23 hours ago, caseyjones said:

I think people are getting tired of the radical color designs on all the new skates (I was never a fan of this) and I think Graf would benefit there.  

Cranky adults like us who are irrelevant don’t like the bright bold colors. Kids who buy new skates every year do. Youth tastes 100% drive the aesthetic designs, and that’s pretty much guarantees to be the opposite of what older players like. Just wait 20 years and all black skates will come back and then the 30-40 year olds on here will be complaining how modern skates these don’t have giant streaks of color on them. 

[stick9 890]

1 hour ago, start_today said:

Cranky adults like us who are irrelevant don’t like the bright bold colors. Kids who buy new skates every year do. Youth tastes 100% drive the aesthetic designs, and that’s pretty much guarantees to be the opposite of what older players like. Just wait 20 years and all black skates will come back and then the 30-40 year olds on here will be complaining how modern skates these don’t have giant streaks of color on them. 

You understand those kids driving those crazy designs are playing in the Show, right. 

Your point about not wanting bold colors is kind of funny because that's exactly what Graf was doing in their heyday. They used white leather when no one else would even dare, they had colored laces and a non tuuk holder. Sure they had the fit and performance back then but almost everyone I know who listed after Grafs (myself included) did so because they looked different.

Edited February 25 by stick9

[Sniper9 529]

If Graf started using more modern tech and materials, that would likely have to redesign their boots. You can't just replace the leather with carbon fiber and expect it to fit and feel the same but lighter and more durable. There's more too that than swapping materials. I don't see graf ever evolving to the level of technology as Bauer true and ccm. They have a market in Europe and it'll probably just stay that way.  I'm assuming they also don't have the size and money for the R/D as well. 

Edited February 25 by Sniper9

[Leif 161]

25 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:

If Graf started using more modern tech and materials, that would likely have to redesign their boots. You can't just replace the leather with carbon fiber and expect it to fit and feel the same but lighter and more durable. There's more too that than swapping materials. I don't see graf ever evolving to the level of technology as Bauer true and ccm. They have a market in Europe and it'll probably just stay that way.  I'm assuming they also don't have the size and money for the R/D as well. 

I’m sure that’s mostly, or maybe completely, true. 

The True skate was pretty much developed by one man and his dog in a shed, and they had no previous production experience. Bauer buy in tech such as CarbonCurv. The advanced hard foam in my Bauer 2S Pro shin pads is polystyrene. The soft squishy foam is bought in tech. They also seem to spend a lot of time designing somewhat dubious features such as CarbonLite blades. In addition Bauer spends a fortune on advertising and sponsoring players. And I do wonder if supplying non sponsored NHL players is genuinely profitable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Graf had the nous to figure out how to produce carbon fibre skates, they understand production on a smallish commercial scale. But they would be expensive. And they would need a decent selling point. True has thermoformability and one piece. True outsource their stock TF7 and TF9 skates to China, I assume they do the same for stock Catalyst and Hzrdus skates too. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, Leif said:

I’m sure that’s mostly, or maybe completely, true. 

The True skate was pretty much developed by one man and his dog in a shed, and they had no previous production experience. Bauer buy in tech such as CarbonCurv. The advanced hard foam in my Bauer 2S Pro shin pads is polystyrene. The soft squishy foam is bought in tech. They also seem to spend a lot of time designing somewhat dubious features such as CarbonLite blades. In addition Bauer spends a fortune on advertising and sponsoring players. And I do wonder if supplying non sponsored NHL players is genuinely profitable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Graf had the nous to figure out how to produce carbon fibre skates, they understand production on a smallish commercial scale. But they would be expensive. And they would need a decent selling point. True has thermoformability and one piece. True outsource their stock TF7 and TF9 skates to China, I assume they do the same for stock Catalyst and Hzrdus skates too. 

Graf has carbon fibre skates, the Peakspeed line.

https://grafhockey.com/skates/ice/player/peakspeed-pk7900/

The issue is that their overall technology is still lacking significantly compared to TRUE, Bauer, and CCM. 

In regards to how Bauer spends their capital and the overall profitability of that company, understand that none of the big brands are good generating significant revenue. CCM and Bauer are riddled with acquisitions and financial failure; look at their histories. The main reason is that there is not enough market penetration and not enough players. 

• Hockey in the USA: <1M players  
• Basketball in the USA: <23M players
• Baseball in the USA: <15M players
• Football: <7M players

As someone who has owned multiple retail hockey stores of various sizes, a large hockey store would be any retail location that does more than $1M in gross sales annually. A friend who owns a similarly sized retail store (store square footage and addressable population density) makes about $5M. Its also significantly easier to sell baseball, football, soccer, and basketball equipment as compared to ice hockey. 

Edited February 25 by VegasHockey

[mojo122 535]

3 hours ago, Leif said:

 

The True skate was pretty much developed by one man and his dog in a shed, and they had no previous production experience. Bauer buy in tech such as CarbonCurv. The advanced hard foam in my Bauer 2S Pro shin pads is polystyrene. The soft squishy foam is bought in tech. They also seem to spend a lot of time designing somewhat dubious features such as CarbonLite blades. In addition Bauer spends a fortune on advertising and sponsoring players. And I do wonder if supplying non sponsored NHL players is genuinely profitable.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Graf had the nous to figure out how to produce carbon fibre skates, they understand production on a smallish commercial scale. But they would be expensive. And they would need a decent selling point. True has thermoformability and one piece. True outsource their stock TF7 and TF9 skates to China, I assume they do the same for stock Catalyst and Hzrdus skates too. 

There's a lot of misconception here:

1) Scott Van Horne was part of the MLX team so he did have previous production experience prior to launching VH and then having been acquired by True.

2) Supplying non sponsored NHL players comes at the expense of the team so that is very profitable to both Bauer and CCM.

3) CCM also has one-piece boots and thermoformability.

[BenBreeg 493]

Like has been pointed out, at this point it’s not really about tech, it’s about a company trying take over share in a relatively fixed size market.  And when you look at the TAM/SAM/SOM, there’s probably not a lot of room there.  The video said CCM came in and basically forced them out of some markets.  It’s a huge uphill battle, probably more akin to scaling a cliff face under fire.

[iceman8310 105]

6 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

If Graf started using more modern tech and materials, that would likely have to redesign their boots. You can't just replace the leather with carbon fiber and expect it to fit and feel the same but lighter and more durable. There's more too that than swapping materials. I don't see graf ever evolving to the level of technology as Bauer true and ccm. They have a market in Europe and it'll probably just stay that way.  I'm assuming they also don't have the size and money for the R/D as well. 

Never heard of the the g75 and pk7900?  Those are skates with modern tech