Sparx Skate Sharpener - At home sharpener

[lfc26 3]

34 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

Then sell it and buy a ProSharp Home!!!!!!  Have you ever managed a product?  Do you know what goes into it?  There are myriad explanations why you are seeing this discrepancy.

This has nothing to do with the Prosharp. How would you feel as a customer if someone sells you a product that costs exactly the same, but t yields 33% less on average from the get go. And they don't even bother to inform you beforehand!!!You are kidding right? They sell these rings for 75 euro so there should be some degree of consistency. I'll upload the pics when I'm at home. This is unbelievable stuff and much worser than I thought it would be..  Guys please listen...I'm not moaning about different user scenarios here !!!! These are the officially stated numbers on the packaging which aren't published anywhere else and they are different from one ring to another!

1/2''= 60 sharpenings

11/16''= 40 sharpenings

this is not published on their website!!!

Edited January 17, 2020 by lfc26

[Swlabr11 69]

Sparx did explain why they changed the verbiage from 40 to 60 in a blog post. It had to do with typical consumer use. I didn't count how many sharpens I got out of each ring but I do 1 - 2 passes every other skate. I skate 3 to 4 times a week and my first ring lasted over a year. My second ring is about cashed and I'm just over a year on that one. I had consistent and reliable edges every time.

To summarize:

Old boxes say 40

New boxes say 60

It's based on average consumer usage. 

Congratulations, you are above average.

 

[stick9 890]

4 hours ago, lfc26 said:

I've just received my sharpening rings and there's a different number of sharpenings stated for these rings???? For some odd reason this is not stated on the Sparx website. Again...again that's poor transparency. I've ordered ES100 rings!!!

I think that's really unacceptable. There's no information on the Sparx website that different rings will yield different number of sharpenings!!!!

40 vs 60 sharpenings. what's the defense on that??? I 'll provide pictures asap!  rings are 1/2'' and 11/16''.  Am I the only one who realized that???

 

 

 

No, they were very transparent about it. Older rings were labeled 40 per, newer rings are labeled 60 per and that reflects what's listed on the Sparx site.

Nothing nefarious about it. They were conservative with the original numbers, which were then upgraded based on average customer usage. Repackaging every ring would have been costly and not really necessary.

[darkhors 88]

9 hours ago, 218hockey said:

No, it turned red and kept on sharpening. Sharpening seemed fine so I guess it's a moot point.

Sooo, my 1/2" Fire is done. I'm going to buy another as soon as I can sell my 5/8" Fire. I wish I could return it. To me, trying different Sparx hollows seems like an expensive experiment. 

Is your 5/8's Fire new? If not, how many cycles have you run on it. I might be interested.

Edited January 17, 2020 by darkhors

[SparxHockey 30]

Hey guys - Steve from Sparx here! Its been a while since we have been on here.....did we miss anything? 😁

We have addressed this 40 vs 60 pairs of skates per ring several times, but let me explain it again. When we originally launched our product, we recommended four cycles per skate (hence that is why there is a circle around the No. 4 in the keypad). As a small, new company with no machines out in the marketplace, that is how we envisioned the product being used. Fast forward a couple of years - and add in 20,000 machines in the market - and not surprisingly we have learned a few things about our customer's behavior!

Like many of you have stated, we learned from our customers (through surveys, events, phone calls) that the AVERAGE consumer was using far less cycles per skate. Many were doing a quick 1-2 passes after a couple hours of skating and achieving great results. People were even boasting online that they were getting 80, 90 and even over 100 pairs of skates done on one ring! Obviously 90 and 100 pairs is not the normal outcome, but we determined that for the MAJORITY of customers, they were doing significantly more than 40 pairs. So....as a small company that is continually learning....we decided to change our packaging (the rings are NOT different nor do different hollows sharpener more pairs) to reflect the results of the average home user. (Obviously a retailer is going to get less on average due to really bad steel, new steel, etc.). This was what is called a "running change" on the packaging so there are some packages that still say 40 and some that say 60 out in the marketplace.

Let me reiterate.... this reflects the average home user. Obviously there are going to be people that sharpen 6 or 10 cycles and get 20-30 pairs and there's people that are going to do 1 cycle every time and get 100+ pairs.

There is nothing "nefarious," "misleading," or "fake news".....we're just a company that is continually learning our customers' behavior and doing the best we can to communicate those learnings to our existing and future customers.

Thanks!

[Leif 161]

6 hours ago, lfc26 said:

I've just received my sharpening rings and there's a different number of sharpenings stated for these rings???? For some odd reason this is not stated on the Sparx website. Again...again that's poor transparency. I've ordered ES100 rings!!!

I think that's really unacceptable. There's no information on the Sparx website that different rings will yield different number of sharpenings!!!!

40 vs 60 sharpenings. what's the defense on that??? I 'll provide pictures asap!  rings are 1/2'' and 11/16''.  Am I the only one who realized that???

When I noticed this I simply sent an email to Sparx and they explained the reasoning. They were helpful and I don't have any issue with this, it all makes perfect sense. I think you need to do your research first, rather than always assuming the worst and then throwing your toys out of your pram. And at risk of being confrontational, your outbursts are getting tiresome. 

By the way, ProSharp claim 500 pairs of skates sharpened per ring. They assume one pass equates to one sharpen. So, who is being more realistic, Sparx or ProSharp? 

[IPv6Freely 2092]

1 hour ago, SparxHockey said:

Hey guys - Steve from Sparx here! Its been a while since we have been on here.....did we miss anything? 😁

We have addressed this 40 vs 60 pairs of skates per ring several times, but let me explain it again. When we originally launched our product, we recommended four cycles per skate (hence that is why there is a circle around the No. 4 in the keypad). As a small, new company with no machines out in the marketplace, that is how we envisioned the product being used. Fast forward a couple of years - and add in 20,000 machines in the market - and not surprisingly we have learned a few things about our customer's behavior!

Like many of you have stated, we learned from our customers (through surveys, events, phone calls) that the AVERAGE consumer was using far less cycles per skate. Many were doing a quick 1-2 passes after a couple hours of skating and achieving great results. People were even boasting online that they were getting 80, 90 and even over 100 pairs of skates done on one ring! Obviously 90 and 100 pairs is not the normal outcome, but we determined that for the MAJORITY of customers, they were doing significantly more than 40 pairs. So....as a small company that is continually learning....we decided to change our packaging (the rings are NOT different nor do different hollows sharpener more pairs) to reflect the results of the average home user. (Obviously a retailer is going to get less on average due to really bad steel, new steel, etc.). This was what is called a "running change" on the packaging so there are some packages that still say 40 and some that say 60 out in the marketplace.

Let me reiterate.... this reflects the average home user. Obviously there are going to be people that sharpen 6 or 10 cycles and get 20-30 pairs and there's people that are going to do 1 cycle every time and get 100+ pairs.

There is nothing "nefarious," "misleading," or "fake news".....we're just a company that is continually learning our customers' behavior and doing the best we can to communicate those learnings to our existing and future customers.

Thanks!

Thank you! 

[lfc26 3]

On 1/17/2020 at 4:36 PM, SparxHockey said:

Hey guys - Steve from Sparx here! Its been a while since we have been on here.....did we miss anything? 😁

We have addressed this 40 vs 60 pairs of skates per ring several times, but let me explain it again. When we originally launched our product, we recommended four cycles per skate (hence that is why there is a circle around the No. 4 in the keypad). As a small, new company with no machines out in the marketplace, that is how we envisioned the product being used. Fast forward a couple of years - and add in 20,000 machines in the market - and not surprisingly we have learned a few things about our customer's behavior!

Like many of you have stated, we learned from our customers (through surveys, events, phone calls) that the AVERAGE consumer was using far less cycles per skate. Many were doing a quick 1-2 passes after a couple hours of skating and achieving great results. People were even boasting online that they were getting 80, 90 and even over 100 pairs of skates done on one ring! Obviously 90 and 100 pairs is not the normal outcome, but we determined that for the MAJORITY of customers, they were doing significantly more than 40 pairs. So....as a small company that is continually learning....we decided to change our packaging (the rings are NOT different nor do different hollows sharpener more pairs) to reflect the results of the average home user. (Obviously a retailer is going to get less on average due to really bad steel, new steel, etc.). This was what is called a "running change" on the packaging so there are some packages that still say 40 and some that say 60 out in the marketplace.

Let me reiterate.... this reflects the average home user. Obviously there are going to be people that sharpen 6 or 10 cycles and get 20-30 pairs and there's people that are going to do 1 cycle every time and get 100+ pairs.

There is nothing "nefarious," "misleading," or "fake news".....we're just a company that is continually learning our customers' behavior and doing the best we can to communicate those learnings to our existing and future customers.

Thanks!

thanks for replying here. First of all, I don't agree with anything said above. You are just explaining advertising changes or even possible product changes, that no consumer can follow or control in any sort or form. To add up on that, there's zero information on the shop part of your website. Why don't you guys clearly come out and post the corrected number of 60/40 average sharpenings on ALL of your rings. I just bought new rings and both of them state different numbers of average sharpenings 60 vs 40. That's all the info I can and will trust on! Why does my brand new 1/2'' ring come with 60 sharpenings on it compared to my brand new 11/16 rings 40 sharpenings, and don't tell me you have changed the packaging. Highly unlikely, that these are in the "old packaging" and even if so, as it stands these rings are sold with different lifespans from the moment of purchase. This is not acceptable and there's no possibility for me as a consumer to evaluate anything that you have said as it's implemented in your microchips and these "non changes" are not proven by comparative data. Therefore I prefer to be skeptical.Why don't you update or publish the numbers on your website backed by data??? and make your "results" publicly. I'm not buying this explanation.The differences on the packaging of my rings is all the info I can trust on as a consumer. I'm not aware of anything that's going on in the microcode of these printer like microchips.  I'm looking forward to a positive solution to this or any form of compensation!

 

Do you guys even know how much this machine and the supplies costs for your followers, who happen to be mainly individuals and not business customers, over here in europe? And how much effort, dedication and research it took to get this product over here, just to find out that we can't trust anything stated and that the rings are delivered with misleading information???. Get your stuff right guys and at least start selling the rings directly over here in europe. There's zero tax on sharpening rings and I'm willing to provide you with the customs tariff code TARIC which clearly provides this information. Additionally, you guys will have to deduct the US tax and apply the European tax. It's not some kind of witch craft.

There've been many lawsuits over here in europe on printer like products using microchips and similar practices and I'm going to challenge this in every possible way and therefore I'm willing to use my rights as an european consumer!

 

Who is ready to give up on 33% of the stated average usability depending on the ring! no one! except the affected products are exactly 33% cheaper.

How do you guys even think a customer will react when he opens his  2 piece 180€=200$ grinding stone delivery, just to find out both rings have a different stated lifespan???? 

I'm urging you to reconsider this fact and to make things right! 

 

Thanks!

pic1 and

pic2

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by lfc26

[stick9 890]

1 minute ago, lfc26 said:

thanks for replying here. First of all, I don't agree with anything said above. You are just explaining advertising changes or even possible product changes, that no consumer can follow or control in any sort or form. To add up on that, there's zero information on the shop part of your website. Why don't you guys clearly come out and post the corrected number of 40 average sharpenings on ALL of your rings. I just bought new rings and both of them state different numbers of average sharpenings 60 vs 40. That's all the info I can and will trust on! Why does my brand new 1/2'' ring come with 60 sharpenings on it compared to my brand new 11/16 rings 40 sharpenings, and don't tell me you have changed the packaging becauase 1/1'' is the most bought and sought after grinding ring. Highly unlikely, that these are in the "old packaging". As it stands these rings are sold with different lifespans from the moment of purchase. This is not acceptable and there's no possibility for me as a consumer to evaluate anything that you have said and therefore I prefer to be sceptical.Why don't you update or publish the numbers on your website??? and make your "results" publicly. I'm not buying this explanation, the differences on the packaging on my rings is all the info I can trust on as a consumer.  I'm looking forward to a positive solution to this!

 

Do you guys even know how much this machine and the supplies costs for your followers over here in europe? And how much effort and research it took to get this product over here, just to find out that we can't trust on anything and that the rings are delivered with misleading information???. Get your things right guys and at least start selling the rings directly over here in europe. There's zero tax on sharpening rings and I'm willing to provide you with the customs tariff code TARIC which clearly provides this information. Additionaly, you guys will have to deduct the US tax and apply the European tax. It's not some kind of witch craft.

I'm ready to challenge this, in any sort or form possible and therefore I'm willing to use my rights as a consumer!

 

Thanks!

Dude, it was just explained to you....twice actually. 

[lfc26 3]

1 hour ago, stick9 said:

Dude, it was just explained to you....twice actually. 

nothing against you but what they've written is no explanation in any sort or form. no one can prove this without knowing what's going on in the microcode. I could believe their explanation but I prefer not to because it's not plausible. The 11/16'' product is also a fairly new ring which was introduced later on!

This makes no sense and if they won't provide a solution, I've also sent them an email, I'm going to challenge this!

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by lfc26

[stick9 890]

5 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

nothing against you but what they've written is no explanation in any sort or form. no one can prove this without knowing what's going on in the microcode. I could believe their explanation but I prefer not to because it's not plausible. Why are the much sought after 1/2 rings which are constantly sold out over here, coming with 60 stated sharpenings and according to their explanation therefore in the "old packaging", while the much less sought after 11/16'' comes in the "new packacking"!!!

This makes no sense and if they won't provide a solution, I've also sent them an email, I'm going to challenge this!

 

You got it backwards. Originally it was listed at 40. So those less popular rings are still labeled 40. Which was explained in great detail by the VP of marketing at Sparx. 

[lfc26 3]

19 minutes ago, stick9 said:

You got it backwards. Originally it was listed at 40. So those less popular rings are still labeled 40. Which was explained in great detail by the VP of marketing at Sparx. 

whatever the number on the packaging. It's different from ring to ring, the changes are neither explained on their website nor in their documentation.As a consumer, I won't trust anything that works on the same microcode principal as any ordinary printer. There have been many lawsuits concerning microchips in printers and similar products over here in europe and the use of  microchips in these products will always be dubious for consumers. As I've said, I'm willing to take this further. It doesn't matter which way they spin this. Even if the explanation with 60 sharpenings on the newer chips may seem more reasonable. The numbers are different and if true all these differing products are in circulation.

 

How do these guys even think a customer will react when he opens his  2 piece 180€=200$ grinding stone delivery, just to find out both rings have a different stated lifespan????

I'll urge you to reconsider this fact and to make things right!

Edited January 17, 2020 by lfc26

[colins 246]

11 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

whatever the number on the packaging. It's different from ring to ring, the changes are neither explained on their website nor in their documentation.As a consumer, I won't trust anything that works on the same microcode principal as any ordinary printer. There have been many lawsuits concerning microchips in printers and similar products over here in europe and the use of  microchips in these products will always be dubious for consumers. As I've said, I'm willing to take this further. It doesn't matter which way they spin this. Even if the explanation with 60 sharpenings on the newer chips may seem more reasonable. The numbers are different and if true all these differing products are in circulation.

 

Both give you 320 passes. Count the passes and see for yourself. The number of pairs that translates to is highly subjective, as explained ad nauseam.

I think the Marketing team at Sparx is fighting a losing battle, only because not all consumers can be assumed to be rational. As proven in this thread.

colins

[Giltis 116]

17 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

How do these guys even think a customer will react when he opens his  2 piece 180€=200$ grinding stone delivery, just to find out both rings have a different stated lifespan????

I'll urge you to reconsider this fact and to make things right!

So what would you suggest? That they recall all of the old packaging, and repackage them all with the updated package or maybe a "60" sticker over the old package? That seems like a huge waste.

Either way, from the verbiage used it is clear to most of us that it's only an average.

[218hockey 50]

15 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

whatever the number on the packaging. It's different from ring to ring, the changes are neither explained on their website nor in their documentation.As a consumer, I won't trust anything that works on the same microcode principal as any ordinary printer. There have been many lawsuits concerning microchips in printers and similar products over here in europe and the use of  microchips in these products will always be dubious for consumers. As I've said, I'm willing to take this further. It doesn't matter which way they spin this. Even if the explanation with 60 sharpenings on the newer chips may seem more reasonable. The numbers are different and if true all these differing products are in circulation.

 

How do these guys even think a customer will react when he opens his  2 piece 180€=200$ grinding stone delivery, just to find out both rings have a different stated lifespan????

I'll urge you to reconsider this fact and to make things right!

Dude, I actually agree with some of your rhetoric/skepticism but I don't know how you haven't gotten banned here! 🚫

[lfc26 3]

1 minute ago, Giltis said:

So what would you suggest? That they recall all of the old packaging, and repackage them all with the updated package or maybe a "60" sticker over the old package? That seems like a huge waste.

Either way, from the verbiage used it is clear to most of us that it's only an average.

it would be a start. Carrying on as it is i hugely misleading and publishing this "information" on their website would at least lmprove this situation for the average consumer..I'm hoping for a positive reply as I'll not accept this.

[lfc26 3]

8 minutes ago, 218hockey said:

Dude, I actually agree with some of your rhetoric/skepticism but I don't know how you haven't gotten banned here! 🚫

I guess because I refrain from insulting someone directly. I'm just making my user experience public

.btw, thanks to you for supporting some of my concerns!

Edited January 17, 2020 by lfc26

[colins 246]

5 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

it would be a start. Carrying on as it is i hugely misleading and publishing this "information" on their website would at least lmprove this situation for the average consumer..I'm hoping for a positive reply as I'll not accept this.

 

https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/faq-grinding-ring

2. How long does a Grinding Ring last?

A Grinding Ring (Radius Ring or FIRE Ring) will last for 320 cycles. If you’re freshening up your blades after every skate, you’ll get 50-60 sharpenings (or even more!) per ring and if you’re sharpening your skates after every 5-6 hours of ice time, you’ll get about 40 sharpenings.  We like to say its about $1 per sharpening.

 

 

[lfc26 3]

7 minutes ago, colins said:

 

https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/faq-grinding-ring

2. How long does a Grinding Ring last?

A Grinding Ring (Radius Ring or FIRE Ring) will last for 320 cycles. If you’re freshening up your blades after every skate, you’ll get 50-60 sharpenings (or even more!) per ring and if you’re sharpening your skates after every 5-6 hours of ice time, you’ll get about 40 sharpenings.  We like to say its about $1 per sharpening.

 

 

this is only a general statement on the usage scenarios!!!!! They are delivering products and a product packaging with different information on it just look at my pics! It's differing from ring to ring and neither published on their online ring selection, which states 60 sharpenings on every single option,nor anywhere else on their website, documentation whatsoever. To make matters worse you are getting your surprise as a consumer when opening the delivered package!

Edited January 17, 2020 by lfc26

[colins 246]

20 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

this is only a general statement on the usage scenarios!!!!! They are delivering products and a product packaging with different information on it just look at my pics! It's differing from ring to ring and neither published on their online ring selection, which states 60 sharpenings on every single option,nor anywhere else on their website, documentation whatsoever. To make matters worse you are getting your surprise as a consumer when opening the delivered package!

 

All rings Sparx has ever delivered have a lifespan of 320 cycles. Do you understand?

[lfc26 3]

17 minutes ago, colins said:

 

All rings Sparx has ever delivered have a lifespan of 320 cycles. Do you understand?

It's a usage scenario! The results have to add up from ring to ring/profile to profile and therefore the number of sharpenings is much more valuable. How do I even control the outcome of my programmed cycle number given different skate blade conditions and all sort of parameters??? How do I know if an 11/16 profile gets perfectly done with the same number of cycles compared to an 1/2 ring which states a 33% increased number of average sharpenings. The documentation on that has to be consistent. You can't sell a product for the same amount of money, stating 20 less cycles and at the same time publishing contrary information on your packaging,online and telling people all is good it's just the packaging.

That's all from my side. I'm not going to bother you guys anymore. I'll leave you with my  main statement!

How do these guys even think a customer will react when he opens his  2 piece 180€=200$ grinding stone delivery, just to find out both rings have a different stated lifespan????

For so long, I'm waiting for their official reply via email and depending on that I'm going to consider my options!

Thanks guys so far and sorry for taking over here with my findings and concerns!

Edited January 17, 2020 by lfc26

[start_today 770]

Woodward and Berstein is about to blow the lid off the whole home sharpening industry. Prosharp and Sweetstick are already shredding documents left and right. This probably goes all the way to the top!!! 

[colins 246]

31 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

 You can't sell a product for the same amount of money, stating 20 less cycles and at the same time publishing contrary information on your packaging,online and telling people all is good it's just the packaging.

 

Where does the packaging say anything about cycles?

32 minutes ago, lfc26 said:

It's a usage scenario! The results have to add up from ring to ring/profile to profile and therefore the number of sharpenings is much more valuable. How do I even control the outcome of my programmed cycle number given different skate blade conditions and all sort of parameters??? How do I know if an 11/16 profile gets perfectly done with the same number of cycles compared to an 1/2 ring which states a 33% increased number of average sharpenings. The documentation on that has to be consistent. You can't sell a product for the same amount of money, stating 20 less cycles and at the same time publishing contrary information on your packaging,online and telling people all is good it's just the packaging.

That's all from my side. I'm not going to bother you guys anymore. I'll leave you with my  main statement!

How do these guys even think a customer will react when he opens his  2 piece 180€=200$ grinding stone delivery, just to find out both rings have a different stated lifespan????

For so long, I'm waiting for their official reply via email and depending on that I'm going to consider my options!

Thanks guys so far and sorry for taking over here with my findings and concerns!

 

Ok, you seem to have confirmed you don't understand that all Sparx rings last 320 cycles. And you are confusing cycles for pair sharpened when you state 'You can't sell a product for the same amount of money, stating 20 less cycles'.

I don't think there's much else anyone can do to help explain it. Are you just trolling at this point?

colins

[colins 246]

 

Maybe I'll try one more way...

You know the indicator lights on the top of your Sparx? When you have a ring installed and the lights get down to the half way mark (half lit, half unlit), this means you have made 160 passes with this ring on various skate blades, and you have 160 passes left before it is worn out and needs to be replaced.

At the point that half the lights are off, you may have successfully sharpened 1 pair of skates, or you may have successfully sharpened 80 pairs of skates. The number of successful sharpenings at the half way point of the lifespan of your grinding ring will be entirely up to how you yourself define a successful sharpening and how many passes you made on each blade along the way to get there.

All rings regardless of packaging will do 320 passes before they are worn out. 

Does this help or are you still ready to sue Sparx to get your money back? If so - please proceed to do so and leave this forum to users who want to enjoy and share info about their Sparx. Come back after the lawsuit and let us all know how it went.

 

colins

 

[BenBreeg 493]

30 minutes ago, colins said:

 

Maybe I'll try one more way...

You know the indicator lights on the top of your Sparx? When you have a ring installed and the lights get down to the half way mark (half lit, half unlit), this means you have made 160 passes with this ring on various skate blades, and you have 160 passes left before it is worn out and needs to be replaced.

At the point that half the lights are off, you may have successfully sharpened 1 pair of skates, or you may have successfully sharpened 80 pairs of skates. The number of successful sharpenings at the half way point of the lifespan of your grinding ring will be entirely up to how you yourself define a successful sharpening and how many passes you made on each blade along the way to get there.

All rings regardless of packaging will do 320 passes before they are worn out. 

Does this help or are you still ready to sue Sparx to get your money back? If so - please proceed to do so and leave this forum to users who want to enjoy and share info about their Sparx. Come back after the lawsuit and let us all know how it went.

 

colins

 

I am pretty sure you can try one more way, two more ways, draw it out in crayon, show a mathematical proof, write a rap song explaining it, have the entire cast of The Muppets demonstrate it in a skit, or hire a plane to tow a banner with “320 Cycles!” written in 10 foot letters over his house for days on end and it wouldn’t sink in.

Some people just get joy out of beating dead horses with broken records....