Sparx Skate Sharpener - At home sharpener

[IPv6Freely 2092]

I do like what they've done, it's pretty neat. But not enough to justify an upgrade over the gen2 if you already have that. I have a gen 1, so if nothing else this should discount the gen2 enough to get me to finally upgrade.

 

[stick9 888]

6 hours ago, pgeorgan said:

I think it's a great machine. Folks that don't already have a Gen 1/2 will love it. It's not an iphone, so don't expect massive leaps and bounds in R&D year after year. At the end of the day, it's a grinding stone passing over some steel. No need to overthink it.

I like that Beam is backwards compatible. Hopefully in the future, they'll integrate it directly into the machine. IE, laser automates edge checking and adjustments. That's what I first thought when I read the release. Definitely would've purchased one had that been the case. Though, I don't know how useful it would be in a home setting. I don't check my edges often, because everytime I do, it just confirms that the machine is in fact accurate. 

App functionality makes perfect sense. No need for Sparx to write entirely custom software. They're not making the mistake that automakers did betting against Carplay. In the future, expect the machine to have no buttons and be driven entirely by a smartphone. Additionally, it allows them to begin to collect usage and performance metrics, which can then be parlayed into further improvemnts in successive generations. 

This might not appeal to users at first glance, but I think will ultimately bear fruit in years to come. 

Great post! Spot on with the phone functionality and user data.

Personally. I don't think it was intended to replace existing gen 1 or 2 machines. 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by stick9

[noupf 42]

I'm one of those who has been on the fence about getting one.  Like a previous member here posted,  I joined a sparx facebook group a year or two ago for the learning process, questions and comments that people had incase i decided to purchase one.  I know guys who are very happy with the machine and others who are meh on it.  I truly believe it comes down to the competency of the user and their ability to calibrate it and stay on top of it..  With that being said, I think sparx reinvented the edge level checker ( the BEAM ) for a reason and it does seem pretty cool.  It absolutely does address one of the most common questions, "my skate edge is too high on this ( fill in the black ) side, which direction and how many clicks do i need to fix it.   It seems that calibration is the #1 issue and many people might not be as mechanically inclined as others. 

Now, If it was my company and I was aware of this question ( and i dont know if something like this existed beforehand or not from sparx ), but i would have made a reference sheet showing their edge checker, with multiple examples of level or unlevel edges and simply added that cheat sheet with literature packed with the unit, so that customers has a much better idea which direction and approximately how many clicks are needed to level them out depending on which side was high.  With their manual edge checker having so many lines of measurement, i image it wouldn't be too difficult to get people close enough.  Now, fast forward to the general consumer in the year 2023, most people seem like they don't want to be bothered with reading and comprehending any sort of literature or even bullet points that are presented to them, they just want something digital or with simple pictures to tell them what to do and how to do it, as simply as possible.......I think the BEAM and the phone app does that.

There is no doubt that this machine is of high quality and does a pretty good job getting skates sharpened for most, but there are small issues that make it an issue for some. Perhaps this is the first step toward a machine that will eventually self calibrate, at which point, i think it becomes an even more wildly popular device.  

[BenBreeg 493]

2023 doesn’t even have anything to do with it.  I ran usability studies for Class 2 medical devices.  We had to test IFUs (Instructions For Use), but we also designed with the assumption they wouldn’t be used.  This was 20 years ago.  These were professionals using a life saving device and I remember going in the cath lab and they didn’t even know where the manual or quick reference guide was.

You have to design for the user.

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, noupf said:

I'm one of those who has been on the fence about getting one.  Like a previous member here posted,  I joined a sparx facebook group a year or two ago for the learning process, questions and comments that people had incase i decided to purchase one.  I know guys who are very happy with the machine and others who are meh on it.  I truly believe it comes down to the competency of the user and their ability to calibrate it and stay on top of it..  With that being said, I think sparx reinvented the edge level checker ( the BEAM ) for a reason and it does seem pretty cool.  It absolutely does address one of the most common questions, "my skate edge is too high on this ( fill in the black ) side, which direction and how many clicks do i need to fix it.   It seems that calibration is the #1 issue and many people might not be as mechanically inclined as others. 

Now, If it was my company and I was aware of this question ( and i dont know if something like this existed beforehand or not from sparx ), but i would have made a reference sheet showing their edge checker, with multiple examples of level or unlevel edges and simply added that cheat sheet with literature packed with the unit, so that customers has a much better idea which direction and approximately how many clicks are needed to level them out depending on which side was high.  With their manual edge checker having so many lines of measurement, i image it wouldn't be too difficult to get people close enough.  Now, fast forward to the general consumer in the year 2023, most people seem like they don't want to be bothered with reading and comprehending any sort of literature or even bullet points that are presented to them, they just want something digital or with simple pictures to tell them what to do and how to do it, as simply as possible.......I think the BEAM and the phone app does that.

There is no doubt that this machine is of high quality and does a pretty good job getting skates sharpened for most, but there are small issues that make it an issue for some. Perhaps this is the first step toward a machine that will eventually self calibrate, at which point, i think it becomes an even more wildly popular device.  

There are already machines that self calibrate, however those are at the commercial level and use lasers to make adjustments at the micron level. They are also not easily accessible for most individuals since they are very expensive and many stores are already invested in "big machines" like Blademaster, Blackstone, ProSharp, etc. Those stores need to wait for the deprecation of their current hardware to drop so it makes sense to purchase new machines. 

Almost all high quality steel produced currently is roughly 2.95 - 3.02 mm in width. Usually ones with a PVD coating, such as DLC or TI, are on the wider side due to the coating. However, with good brands, like STEP, and JRZ, even those are well within tolerance. I check every pair I sharpen with a micrometer and log it on a sheet. Some older and lower quality steel falls outside that measurement, but only marginally. The self-centering clamp on the Sparx was actually their best innovation. ProSharp and other developer a self-centering clamp, but their overall clamp and machine design had too many flaws. SSM has a self-centering clamp on their hand machine which also works very well, but that machine has many other issues such as wheel calibration and is only as good as the operator. Typically, unless the steel is bent, damaged, or low quality, it should be within the tolerance and the machine should not require adjustment.

Most hand sharpening machines use a jig, the weight of the boot plus clamping mechanism can change the outcome of the sharpening which requires a knowledgeable operator. Let's just focus on the edges, not on finish, and the hand sharpening process, which is all dependent on the operator and his overall performance. 

So, back to the matter at hand. Many times, people take measurements before they deburr a blade, which also can yield incorrect results. They then make adjustments to their machine and end going back and forth, overshooting a level edge, when 99% of the time it was most likely perfect to begin with. 

IMO, the issue isn't we need more tools. A micrometer and right angle work fine. They have for centuries. You wouldn't have most modern engineering if these items didn't work. The problem is we need better education for users. 

/end rant

Edited September 20, 2023 by VegasHockey

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

Just got off the Zoom call with Russ and learned some things.

• The Gen 3 does speak to the app and Beam via bluetooth so there is increased functionality there.  The machine will tell the app exactly how much life is in a ring the Hepa filter, error code fixes and other things.  
• The Beam does sound really cool.  It will specifically tell you exactly how much to adjust in the alignment to get a perfect edge based on the generation machine you have.  
• They are coming out with an accessory that will allow you to mark exactly where the perfect alignment is for you skates so that when you adjust the alignment for someone else's skates you can just dial right back to your perfect spot.  It attaches to the alignment screw.
• The Pro base has spots to attach DIY 3D printed knobs, shelves etc.

DM

[noupf 42]

13 hours ago, dkmiller3356 said:

Just got off the Zoom call with Russ and learned some things.

• The Gen 3 does speak to the app and Beam via bluetooth so there is increased functionality there.  The machine will tell the app exactly how much life is in a ring the Hepa filter, error code fixes and other things.  
• The Beam does sound really cool.  It will specifically tell you exactly how much to adjust in the alignment to get a perfect edge based on the generation machine you have.  
• They are coming out with an accessory that will allow you to mark exactly where the perfect alignment is for you skates so that when you adjust the alignment for someone else's skates you can just dial right back to your perfect spot.  It attaches to the alignment screw.
• The Pro base has spots to attach DIY 3D printed knobs, shelves etc.

DM

Any idea if the Gen2 version will continue to be sold or is it safe to assume it will slowly be phased out as inventory sells down?

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

Beam sounds pretty cool, but not sure the value is there for $250 as a stand alone.  A manual edge checker is pretty easy to use, and pretty precise for what's needed.  The big play here is that good edge checkers are usually around $100 or more on their own due to economies of scale.  However, now with 3D printing, one can print their own edge checker for relatively cheap.

[mojo122 535]

14 minutes ago, shoot_the_goalie said:

Beam sounds pretty cool, but not sure the value is there for $250 as a stand alone.  A manual edge checker is pretty easy to use, and pretty precise for what's needed.  The big play here is that good edge checkers are usually around $100 or more on their own due to economies of scale.  However, now with 3D printing, one can print their own edge checker for relatively cheap.

The value I see is for the inexperienced SPARX user who doesn't know how to interpret the results when not level.  Seems like the beam will give you adjustment advice tailored to the generation of the machine they are using.

[Leif 161]

15 hours ago, mojo122 said:

The value I see is for the inexperienced SPARX user who doesn't know how to interpret the results when not level.  Seems like the beam will give you adjustment advice tailored to the generation of the machine they are using.

That’s a nice feature. Even if you’re not inexperienced, if you’re doing several pairs of skates and each requires an adjustment, the beam would make life easier. 

I don’t normally sharpen other people’s skates, but I’ve done a few friends’ skates recently. Usually I get a slightly different measurement depending on which way round I place the gauge (a cheap one off eBay). I assume this is because the sides are not plane parallel. I’m not sure how best to deal with this, so I just get it close measuring with the gauge facing consistently in one direction. My higher end Bauer steel and True steel are fine. 

This new machine looks good. There is no compelling need to upgrade for most of us, but it’s nice to see that they are working on improvements. My gen 1 has rubber buttons and the printing on them might wear out. Otherwise it looks durable. Does anyone know how long these beasts last? I think at least one owner had to replace the clamp spring. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:06 AM, noupf said:

Any idea if the Gen2 version will continue to be sold or is it safe to assume it will slowly be phased out as inventory sells down?

This was asked but not answered directly.  My opinion is that they will sell out the stock on the Gen2 and the lowered price appears proof of that.  But that’s just a guess. 

[beerleaguecaptain 999]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:26 PM, shoot_the_goalie said:

Beam sounds pretty cool, but not sure the value is there for $250 as a stand alone.  A manual edge checker is pretty easy to use, and pretty precise for what's needed.  The big play here is that good edge checkers are usually around $100 or more on their own due to economies of scale.  However, now with 3D printing, one can print their own edge checker for relatively cheap.

The major difference is that the beam will tell you via the app EXACTLY what to do on your sharpener to achieve perfectly level.  No guess work. I like the idea and will likely buy one. 

[marka 526]

Howdy,

So... Gen3 is kinda a disappointment to me.  Gen 2 made sense as a refinement, but I expected gen3 to introduce some new capabilities.

So... What _should_ gen 3 have been?  🙂

To me, the biggest downside of the Sparx is that you can't get the same blade finish / edge as what you can get with a really good manual sharpening.  I think that likely comes down the grit size on the wheel, but possibly also its the pressure used / pass speed?  Unsure.  My understanding is that on a manual machine, you lubricate the steel & use less pressure on your final pass.

To change the grit size, you'd have to swap rings.  And any ring swap is going to introduce some edge height error since the center of each ring isn't guaranteed to be identical (though they're obviously damn close).  Plus you have to take the skate out to swap the wheel.  And you've now literally got 2x the cost for a given radius / hollow.  The advantage is that there's nothing that would fundamentally have to change to enable this.

If a grit size change isn't required but rather a finishing lube would work, that would be pretty easy to apply manually.  Might not even have to unclamp the skate.  Heck, its not totally inconceivable that it could be automatically applied.

To change the pressure, you'd need a modified carriage that would allow you to remove some of the spring pressure without changing the ring height.  Likely that means a re-design to have two springs, one of which could be locked out with a button / lever / ??

To me, none of that seems inconceivable.  I would think that some capabilities like this could be added for incremental cost vs. wholesale redesign.

The next step would be support for profiling.  That would seem to be as straightforward as to adding a motor that controls the height of the grinding ring, or more likely, a grinding ring assembly that still contains a spring loaded height setup.  You'd also need the ability to know where the grinding ring is along the X axis (I doubt that is possible with the current hardware, but perhaps its as simple as adding an encoder).  Might also need the skate clamp to have a way to precisely locate the skate blade fore/aft as well as pitch, but perhaps not as well... Perhaps that's actually measured once the skate is placed in the machine.  After that, everything should be software... Shouldn't be any need for actual physical templates, CNC has been around for a long time.

I think that's likely a decent bit more $$... Adding a motor plus encoders on both axis anyway.  Maybe some type of sensor as well to be able to measure where the blade actually is.

All of this may even ignore the simplest change, which would be support for a cross grinding ring.  Seems like all you need for that is to beef up the ability of the machine to handle larger / hotter swarf.  That can't be too far off already, since the gen 1 pro versions already have it.

Anyway, what type of reasonable (or maybe not so reasonable) design changes would you all have liked to see?

Mark

[218hockey 50]

22 minutes ago, marka said:

  My understanding is that on a manual machine, you lubricate the steel

Why can't you do this with the SPARX for one pass?

[stick9 888]

2 hours ago, marka said:

Howdy,

So... Gen3 is kinda a disappointment to me.  Gen 2 made sense as a refinement, but I expected gen3 to introduce some new capabilities.

So... What _should_ gen 3 have been?  🙂

To me, the biggest downside of the Sparx is that you can't get the same blade finish / edge as what you can get with a really good manual sharpening.  I think that likely comes down the grit size on the wheel, but possibly also its the pressure used / pass speed?  Unsure.  My understanding is that on a manual machine, you lubricate the steel & use less pressure on your final pass.

To change the grit size, you'd have to swap rings.  And any ring swap is going to introduce some edge height error since the center of each ring isn't guaranteed to be identical (though they're obviously damn close).  Plus you have to take the skate out to swap the wheel.  And you've now literally got 2x the cost for a given radius / hollow.  The advantage is that there's nothing that would fundamentally have to change to enable this.

If a grit size change isn't required but rather a finishing lube would work, that would be pretty easy to apply manually.  Might not even have to unclamp the skate.  Heck, its not totally inconceivable that it could be automatically applied.

To change the pressure, you'd need a modified carriage that would allow you to remove some of the spring pressure without changing the ring height.  Likely that means a re-design to have two springs, one of which could be locked out with a button / lever / ??

To me, none of that seems inconceivable.  I would think that some capabilities like this could be added for incremental cost vs. wholesale redesign.

The next step would be support for profiling.  That would seem to be as straightforward as to adding a motor that controls the height of the grinding ring, or more likely, a grinding ring assembly that still contains a spring loaded height setup.  You'd also need the ability to know where the grinding ring is along the X axis (I doubt that is possible with the current hardware, but perhaps its as simple as adding an encoder).  Might also need the skate clamp to have a way to precisely locate the skate blade fore/aft as well as pitch, but perhaps not as well... Perhaps that's actually measured once the skate is placed in the machine.  After that, everything should be software... Shouldn't be any need for actual physical templates, CNC has been around for a long time.

I think that's likely a decent bit more $$... Adding a motor plus encoders on both axis anyway.  Maybe some type of sensor as well to be able to measure where the blade actually is.

All of this may even ignore the simplest change, which would be support for a cross grinding ring.  Seems like all you need for that is to beef up the ability of the machine to handle larger / hotter swarf.  That can't be too far off already, since the gen 1 pro versions already have it.

Anyway, what type of reasonable (or maybe not so reasonable) design changes would you all have liked to see?

Mark

The question you need to ask yourself, will your average Sparx owner notice the difference, or what percentage of users would actually use it? 

TBH, Im not sure I would and there are other things I would want before that. Automatic calibration (height and width), an option to profile or 100% maintenance free. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by stick9

[BenBreeg 493]

So a lot of the things being discussed are meat and potatoes product management/development pitfalls.  Scope creep/feature bloat.  Not staying true to the market and users you are trying to address.  Happens all the time.

Sparx is a reasonably priced sharpener designed to, with minimal upkeep, produce quality edges.  Maybe not the equivalent of “artisan” sharpening as but most people can’t tell the difference anyway.

Adding features “just because you can” or because it is just an incremental (assumed) cost can lead to products that start to lose focus.

honestly, most players still don’t know much about profiling, and paying for the feature somebody might never use or use once a year might not make sense to a purchaser.

maybe it does, but product managers always are juggling features that will actually move the needle and that there is a business case for vs those features that some subset of the market is clamoring for.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

14 hours ago, stick9 said:

The question you need to ask yourself, will your average Sparx owner notice the difference, or what percentage of users would actually use it? 

TBH, Im not sure I would and there are other things I would want before that. Automatic calibration (height and width), an option to profile or 100% maintenance free. 

I dunno if the average person would notice or not... I hear from a lot of people that the sharpen they get from a Sparx isn't as good as "their guy" or whatever.  How much of that is crap and how much is reality... Dunno?

Remember that I'm a Sparx owner here.  Obviously I like the thing.  I'm just curious how it could be better.

So how would you implement automatic calibration for grinding ring height and centering on the blade?

Mark

[marka 526]

Howdy,

12 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

maybe it does, but product managers always are juggling features that will actually move the needle and that there is a business case for vs those features that some subset of the market is clamoring for.

Its that "move the needle" bit there that matters.

For an existing owner, I don't think there's any reason to buy a new machine.  Maybe portability, if you're a gen 1 user.  But otherwise... Not much that I can see.

So the question is, at what point does Sparx need to start selling upgrades to current owners, vs. new people?

I have no idea when that point is.  Presumably they've got marketing folks / data that's talking to them, telling them to continue to make minor refinements to the current setup vs. major advances in capability.  But still, to me as a gen 1 owner on a forum talking about shit, I'm curious how the machine could realistically be better _for me_.

Mark

[IPv6Freely 2092]

I see no benefit to gen 3, besides making gen 2 cheaper... 

[start_today 770]

Did gen 2 get cheaper, or did gen 3 just get more expensive? Or both? 
 

Honest question, I don’t pay attention to the pricing. 

[glockaxis 0]

So how, specifically, would the Beam work with a Gen 2 Sparx? Put the Beam on the skate blade then the app would recommend turning the screwdriver adjusted wheel left or right? Or do I have to sharpen a skate first the make the recommended adjustments and resharpen? Will the Beam read where your current setting is on the Sparx beforehand? Just trying to wrap my mind around this thing.

[marka 526]

Howdy,

1 hour ago, glockaxis said:

So how, specifically, would the Beam work with a Gen 2 Sparx? Put the Beam on the skate blade then the app would recommend turning the screwdriver adjusted wheel left or right? Or do I have to sharpen a skate first the make the recommended adjustments and resharpen? Will the Beam read where your current setting is on the Sparx beforehand? Just trying to wrap my mind around this thing.

Pretty much has to be this.

Mark

[IPv6Freely 2092]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:10 PM, start_today said:

Did gen 2 get cheaper, or did gen 3 just get more expensive? Or both? 
 

Honest question, I don’t pay attention to the pricing. 

I think it got cheaper, but not sure. I had Kickstarter pricing on gen1 so I have no idea what the retail was on any of it since then. 

[Leif 161]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:10 AM, start_today said:

Did gen 2 get cheaper, or did gen 3 just get more expensive? Or both? 
 

Honest question, I don’t pay attention to the pricing. 

Here in the UK gen 2 is much cheaper. I paid £1,200 for a gen 1 over 4 years ago, gen 2 is currently about £1,000. 

[start_today 770]

Sorry, let me rephrase. Mot comparing cost of gen 1 or kickstarter.

The time before before gen 3 was released, did the gen 2 model cost the same as it does now, or was it more and they have since reduced the price?