Bauer.com

[chippa13 1844]

1 hour ago, adam14 said:

Customs are nothing new, and the 100 dollar upcharge from their retail off the shelf price point has been the norm at least since I've been fitting skates. 

I'm goad CCM and Bauer are offering these options, I think thanks to all the manufacturing and tech advancements weve seen in the last decade it's made the production of customs much more seamless than it used to be (when they were custom built in Canada) is a huge factor as to why they are pushing this so mainstream.

I've always told customers if you're spending 1000 bucks on skates already, what's another 100 to get a full custom fit that shouldn't give your feet any issues. It's a no brainer really.

 

On another note, I'm glad this is much more user friendly when fitting customs than Bauer's "custom order sheets" from previous years. 

I think the custom route for CCM and Bauer is more about inventory control than anything to do with manufacturing/tech advancements.

[CigarScott 132]

I inquired about about getting custom Bauer skates back in February I would say with my lone LHS and the manager said that the Bauer rep would visit from Florida sometime in June or July. She took down my contact info to let me know when he'd be in town and never heard anything after that. My lone LHS has zero people working in it with any kind of a hockey background; two full-time employees that also coach figure skating, a couple figure skating moms working part time and some high school & college age figure skaters so anyone would be foolish to trust them with a custom skate fitting. I'm a new hockey player and they regularly ask me for advice on hockey equipment and how to properly bake hockey skates which isn't good. 🙂

[CigarScott 132]

7 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

I think the custom route for CCM and Bauer is more about inventory control than anything to do with manufacturing/tech advancements.

Yeah, I think Bauer is still sitting on a ton of Nexus 1N skates so it may make sense for them to do this instead of just make tons of skates, especially at price points and sizes that 99% of players don't need.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

Yeah, makes me wonder if they replace the top price point skates completely. Top tier is custom only. Would make sense for a lot of reasons.

[CigarScott 132]

I would think that is the end game. Once the general public becomes more aware of custom skates and as more and more retailers get scanners and when the customer realizes that it doesn't cost much more to go that route than buy a $1000 off-the-shelf skate then I would imagine demand would plummet for $1000 retail skates.

[IPv6Freely 2093]

57 minutes ago, CigarScott said:

I would think that is the end game. Once the general public becomes more aware of custom skates and as more and more retailers get scanners and when the customer realizes that it doesn't cost much more to go that route than buy a $1000 off-the-shelf skate then I would imagine demand would plummet for $1000 retail skates.

That’s just the thing - I can’t imagine the demand for $1000 retail skates exists in the first place. At least, not from people who wouldn’t prefer custom anyway. 

[adam14 182]

1 hour ago, IPv6Freely said:

That’s just the thing - I can’t imagine the demand for $1000 retail skates exists in the first place. At least, not from people who wouldn’t prefer custom anyway. 

That's what I said. why pay 1000 for off the shelf when i can put you in a custom guaranteed to fit your foot and have 0 issues and probably be a bit of a better build for an extra 100 bucks.

 

Now that the materials in the boots are easy to manipulate nd they can streamline production of customs it's only a matter of time until the top price point isnt even a display at stores anymore

[JunkyardAthletic 505]

On 7/25/2018 at 5:30 PM, mojo122 said:

Lets be clear, neither True nor CCM came up with the 'monocoque" concept.  KOR was the first to use it followed by MLX and Easton.  So it's not their ground breaking technology.  If a 1-piece boot gave a skater such enhanced energy transfer and performance ,then True and CCM would be the most worn skate in the NHL.

So refreshing to read this!  Going to call you "The Historian" from now on...

 

On 7/26/2018 at 7:21 AM, stick9 said:

I won’t get sucked into a virtual pissing match, not gonna happen. Most people here know what I do and who I do it for. In short, I work in engineering for a very large consumer electronic tech company. Not only that, I am a huge car guy. 

If you want to use cars as an analogy I will. Bauer is Toyota. They make something for just about everyone. People who want more can buy a Lexus. CCM is Honda, similar to Toyota but slightly different. Those consumers who want more can buy an Acura. True is Alfa Romeo, they do one thing and people who love them really love and will buy nothing else, but they accept their shortcomings.

TTFN

 

QFT; dead on!

[BenBreeg 493]

On 7/26/2018 at 1:38 PM, CigarScott said:

Must be nice. 🙂

I was surprised that Bauer and CCM would cost more than True as they're much bigger companies that can take advantage of their buying power and economies scale better than True.

Price shouldn’t be a simple cost plus calculation.  Price should be what the company thinks will yield a given volume of sales in order to make the busimess case.  As a product manager, if i am selling at a given price and lets say manufacturing finds a way to save some percent per unit, i am not lowering my price unless i need to from a market need.

[VegasHockey 1280]

23 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

Yeah, makes me wonder if they replace the top price point skates completely. Top tier is custom only. Would make sense for a lot of reasons.

I absolutely imagine this is going to be the case, top tier will be custom order only. I also assume most retail top end models won't cost more than $649 USD or maybe even less. You can see Bauer and CCM have already started to move this direction with their pricing. 

Also, supposedly True is going to develop a more "retail" "affordable" version of their skate. Not sure if they will actually do it though as it may diminish their brand. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:21 AM, stick9 said:

If you want to use cars as an analogy I will. Bauer is Toyota. They make something for just about everyone. People who want more can buy a Lexus. CCM is Honda, similar to Toyota but slightly different. Those consumers who want more can buy an Acura. True is Alfa Romeo, they do one thing and people who love them really love and will buy nothing else, but they accept their shortcomings.

TTFN

 

 

Japanese and "Italian" cars. Yuck. 

😉 

[bunnyman666 445]

On 7/25/2018 at 12:01 PM, althoma1 said:

KOR had a non-removable moldable footbed in a monocoque boot about 12 years ago. Now the boot itself wasn't built around your foot, but you did stand up during the heat molding process and the built in insole would mold around your foot along with other parts of the skate.

I figured that a smaller concern had possibly tried something like that! With thermo-formable materials, it is something that should have been possible YEARS ago! Hockey was kinda late to the party when it came to materials for things like skates (as cycling experimented with carbon composites as early as forty years ago and cycling shoes have used carbon composites for well over 20 years!); and having been out of hockey for quite a while before returning five years ago, I can see how I missed the KOR skate!

And yes- MLO was amongst the first of monocoque boots. 

[JDub 29]

 

Interesting reading through where this thread has gone. From Steve Jobs to Tesla and beyond!

A few details on the MyBauer program. The project officially kicked off 3.5 years ago. At that time, we identified the service level’s of professional players was changing significantly where our Elite Athlete Reps were casting players feet and sending the casts into Blainville to make skates. We couldn’t do anything from a manufacturing perspective with the casts other than visually see areas of required adjustments we could implement in our manufacturing process at that time. I am sure some of you have seen the castings we were doing at that time.

We knew at that time, we needed to evolve our process and tools to meet the growing need of players. We also started to see Elite players (AAA, High School, etc.) interest in customization significantly increase and casting just was not feasible on many fronts. So, we kicked off a project and looked at multiple scanning devices. Ultimately, we chose to collaborate with Swedish based company Volumental on the front-end scanning solutions based on the level accuracy of the scan, how fast it scans, how simple it is to operate and similar company philosophies. The scanner includes 12 depth cameras and an internal processing system developed to model feet with the greatest level of accuracy. The scanner measures in fractions of mm so it’s not uncommon to go to 1 retailer and get another reading at another – we have and will continue to work with all retailers to standardize the fitting positioning during the scanning process. If you think about it, the thickness of a sock during a scan can change a reading or even the time of day/level of activity in the day can affect your reading. I know JR can attest to this. Any who, once we got to a comfort level with Volumental, the rest of the process begun.

Options to create a customized last to use in the building an individual custom skate was next to be tested. We ended up going with 3D printing solution for similar reasons as the scanner – accuracy in building the individual tools/lasts and flexibility on solutions in various areas of the foot and detailing. Not 100% clear what others are doing but we are confident in the tech/process we invested in to achieve the desired goals. We purchased multiple industrial grade, high-end 3D printers that again, speed and accuracy was a premium and off we went to building and testing with pro players a new way of building custom skates. Was it perfect at first? No but we learned all the way through and about ¼ way through this past NHL season it started to really take off in terms of fit, comfort and performance. So much so that 3D scanning/custom lasts has become the norm. Call this validation.

Next step – was focusing on front-end solution where players can choose performance specs and visualization of building of the skate on the fly. When you see MyBauer at retail, you can build the skate in store by choosing specs like tongue, blade, liner, eyelet facing, laces and personalize with your name and number. We call these the performance specs as the scan takes care of the fitting details.

Here is the general process you will go through.

Step 1: Scan the foot (5-seconds for both feet)

Step 2: Add notes to the foot scan – We can see most of the details in the scan but it’s always very helpful to know what the issue is. We have people on the team that have built custom skates for players for over 25 years – they know what they are doing and highlighting these “trouble” areas helps.

Step 3: Try on skates. The scanner now has a custom skate recommendation (L foot and R foot independent). Try on some stock skates and dial in your personal preferences. Some players are going to want to adjust down or up based on preferences. With the skate lab out for a year and over 200K unique scans in the system, personal preference still plays a role. You can adjust length in the order submission but width is not an option as the custom last process shapes the skate to your individual foot (L and R). At any time during this process you want to make additional notes to your foot scan, you can.

Step 4: Choose your specs.

-       It starts with choosing a family (Vapor, Supreme or Nexus). Our families are generally based on a low profile (Vapor), Mid profile (Supreme) or High profile (Nexus) and adjustments can be made based on a combination of notes and scan details. Generally speaking, you should stay in the family you scan for but again, that’s a personal preference.

o   The Nexus model is a 2N PRO skate which is not available as a stock option moving forward.

 

-       Confirm the length of the skates based on personal preference and trying on skates.

 

-       Choose your eyelets – Injected Facing or Standard eyelets.

o   We consider INJ facing as high performance and is limited in terms of pattern adjustments.

o   Standard eyelets is traditional feel and performance but allows for greater range of adjustments. For example, if you suffer from lace bite – in most cases we see it is based on the profile of the upper foot and depth of skate being worn. If you add a lace bite as a note on the scan, we can adjust the pattern with a standard eyelet or go to a deeper fitting skate with injected facing. This is just 1 example of many.

§  Supreme Injected Eyelets only comes with Supreme C-Flex tendon guard

§  Supreme with standard eyelets only comes with Pro Stiff tendon guard

§  Nexus 2N pro comes with Injected eyelets only

 

-       Choose your tongue – 5 options to choose from

o   Vapor flex lock (thermoforming, protective, light)

o   Supreme reflex (thermoforming, protective, energy return)

o   Classic pro felt (traditional feel and comfort

o   Molded felt (light and thin),

o   Double classic felt (Thick and comfortable.

§  We kept the selection simple to start and selection makes up majority of preferences of players surveyed.

 

-       Choose your blade – LS5, LS3, LS2 – Selection of personal preference

 

-       Choose your liner: Lock fit or full grip

 

-       Choose laces: Standard cloth or waxed

 

-       Personalize your skates: 13 characters and 2 numbers max.

 

Step 5: We produce the skate for you and ship the skates. We still recommend thermoforming the skates - just puts the final touches on it. 

 

Apologies on the lengthy post but hopefully this helps. Conversation & questions can continue!

 

Cheers

 

[IPv6Freely 2093]

Fantastic write-up! Will this be available for goalie skates, too?

[BlueNux 17]

21 minutes ago, JDub said:

 

Interesting reading through where this thread has gone. From Steve Jobs to Tesla and beyond!

A few details on the MyBauer program. The project officially kicked off 3.5 years ago. At that time, we identified the service level’s of professional players was changing significantly where our Elite Athlete Reps were casting players feet and sending the casts into Blainville to make skates. We couldn’t do anything from a manufacturing perspective with the casts other than visually see areas of required adjustments we could implement in our manufacturing process at that time. I am sure some of you have seen the castings we were doing at that time.

We knew at that time, we needed to evolve our process and tools to meet the growing need of players. We also started to see Elite players (AAA, High School, etc.) interest in customization significantly increase and casting just was not feasible on many fronts. So, we kicked off a project and looked at multiple scanning devices. Ultimately, we chose to collaborate with Swedish based company Volumental on the front-end scanning solutions based on the level accuracy of the scan, how fast it scans, how simple it is to operate and similar company philosophies. The scanner includes 12 depth cameras and an internal processing system developed to model feet with the greatest level of accuracy. The scanner measures in fractions of mm so it’s not uncommon to go to 1 retailer and get another reading at another – we have and will continue to work with all retailers to standardize the fitting positioning during the scanning process. If you think about it, the thickness of a sock during a scan can change a reading or even the time of day/level of activity in the day can affect your reading. I know JR can attest to this. Any who, once we got to a comfort level with Volumental, the rest of the process begun.

Options to create a customized last to use in the building an individual custom skate was next to be tested. We ended up going with 3D printing solution for similar reasons as the scanner – accuracy in building the individual tools/lasts and flexibility on solutions in various areas of the foot and detailing. Not 100% clear what others are doing but we are confident in the tech/process we invested in to achieve the desired goals. We purchased multiple industrial grade, high-end 3D printers that again, speed and accuracy was a premium and off we went to building and testing with pro players a new way of building custom skates. Was it perfect at first? No but we learned all the way through and about ¼ way through this past NHL season it started to really take off in terms of fit, comfort and performance. So much so that 3D scanning/custom lasts has become the norm. Call this validation.

Next step – was focusing on front-end solution where players can choose performance specs and visualization of building of the skate on the fly. When you see MyBauer at retail, you can build the skate in store by choosing specs like tongue, blade, liner, eyelet facing, laces and personalize with your name and number. We call these the performance specs as the scan takes care of the fitting details.

Here is the general process you will go through.

Step 1: Scan the foot (5-seconds for both feet)

Step 2: Add notes to the foot scan – We can see most of the details in the scan but it’s always very helpful to know what the issue is. We have people on the team that have built custom skates for players for over 25 years – they know what they are doing and highlighting these “trouble” areas helps.

Step 3: Try on skates. The scanner now has a custom skate recommendation (L foot and R foot independent). Try on some stock skates and dial in your personal preferences. Some players are going to want to adjust down or up based on preferences. With the skate lab out for a year and over 200K unique scans in the system, personal preference still plays a role. You can adjust length in the order submission but width is not an option as the custom last process shapes the skate to your individual foot (L and R). At any time during this process you want to make additional notes to your foot scan, you can.

Step 4: Choose your specs.

-       It starts with choosing a family (Vapor, Supreme or Nexus). Our families are generally based on a low profile (Vapor), Mid profile (Supreme) or High profile (Nexus) and adjustments can be made based on a combination of notes and scan details. Generally speaking, you should stay in the family you scan for but again, that’s a personal preference.

o   The Nexus model is a 2N PRO skate which is not available as a stock option moving forward.

 

-       Confirm the length of the skates based on personal preference and trying on skates.

 

-       Choose your eyelets – Injected Facing or Standard eyelets.

o   We consider INJ facing as high performance and is limited in terms of pattern adjustments.

o   Standard eyelets is traditional feel and performance but allows for greater range of adjustments. For example, if you suffer from lace bite – in most cases we see it is based on the profile of the upper foot and depth of skate being worn. If you add a lace bite as a note on the scan, we can adjust the pattern with a standard eyelet or go to a deeper fitting skate with injected facing. This is just 1 example of many.

§  Supreme Injected Eyelets only comes with Supreme C-Flex tendon guard

§  Supreme with standard eyelets only comes with Pro Stiff tendon guard

§  Nexus 2N pro comes with Injected eyelets only

 

-       Choose your tongue – 5 options to choose from

o   Vapor flex lock (thermoforming, protective, light)

o   Supreme reflex (thermoforming, protective, energy return)

o   Classic pro felt (traditional feel and comfort

o   Molded felt (light and thin),

o   Double classic felt (Thick and comfortable.

§  We kept the selection simple to start and selection makes up majority of preferences of players surveyed.

 

-       Choose your blade – LS5, LS3, LS2 – Selection of personal preference

 

-       Choose your liner: Lock fit or full grip

 

-       Choose laces: Standard cloth or waxed

 

-       Personalize your skates: 13 characters and 2 numbers max.

 

Step 5: We produce the skate for you and ship the skates. We still recommend thermoforming the skates - just puts the final touches on it. 

 

Apologies on the lengthy post but hopefully this helps. Conversation & questions can continue!

 

Cheers

 

Thank you so much for the very detailed post! This really helps a lot of us who have never ventured into the custom skate world. The detail of the process, as well as the context for the development cycle, is incredibly helpful! My future skate will likely be a custom skate, so I look forward to following the evolution of your product.

You mentioned that "Generally speaking, you should stay in the family you scan for" in terms of skate family. If the skates are going to be built from a custom last and everything including depth/volume will be adjusted for the customer's foot, why would anyone pick any skate family other than the most recent, featured-packed skate?

For example, in this generation, the Supreme features the carbon Curv, which is the most advanced composite material by Bauer. Along with the many other features that the Supreme has, why would anyone pick Vapor? I assume that a custom Vapor would never be able to get the flexible tendon guard, carbon Curv, or some of the other new tech from the Supreme line except for the liner and tongue.

[Vet88 674]

I agree with Bluenux, I don't get this "stay in family" bit. I would measure a vapour heel, supreme forefoot, nexus volume. What family am I going to end up in, the outcasts? Surely a custom is a custom that is built to my last regardless of what family I should be in?

[Cavs019 708]

2 hours ago, Vet88 said:

I agree with Bluenux, I don't get this "stay in family" bit. I would measure a vapour heel, supreme forefoot, nexus volume. What family am I going to end up in, the outcasts? Surely a custom is a custom that is built to my last regardless of what family I should be in?

I have the same foot- curious to hear the response. 

@JDub thank you for the awesome, comprehensive write up! Is 1 stiffness still an option as part of this process? At 175 lbs the stock boots are generally too stiff for me, especially with how high cut they are now. 

[stick9 892]

Awesome write up. The back story was a great read. Thanks for sharing. I've been thrilled with my recent Vapors, sort of wish I had waited a bit longer.

The "stay in your family" sounds like it's depth/volume based. That's how it read to me.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

I feel like I'm repeating myself - I posted this two pages back.

The "stay in family" refers to the boot, primarily in terms of volume.

This is absolutely nothing new.  When we did custom skates before, we would recommend the boot with the path of least resistance as a base.  That's why you don't see low volume Nexus skates or high volume Vapors.  There are 3 lines to work with.  Plus all of those lines skate differently and have different pitches.

CCM is doing the same thing.  What @BlueNux is asking for isn't feasible at this time.

[CaptainFranchise 9]

Great explanation! Is there a tech mesh V-cut option?

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

3 minutes ago, CaptainFranchise said:

Great explanation! Is there a tech mesh V-cut option?

He would've mentioned it if so. 

[gdl188 4]

Really appreciate the write up from J-Dub. Sorry if this was already covered but when does this all roll out? And what would the turnaround time be? 

[JDub 29]

@Vet88 & @BlueNux : Why it says generally is from a consistency standpoint - ordering another pair 12, 24, 26 months after your first - we want to make sure your next pair is feels the exact same as the first - this what NHL players want more than anything is consistency skate over skate. Can't divulge too much detail in a forum like this but we can modify off the set templates as needed. Again - some players are going to want mods, others not. The more detail you give us off the model you choose, the more we mod to that need. The recommendation of the scanner from a family perspective is to best match the depth of your foot to the depth of our skate patterns so it's generally a good starting point. Adjustments can be made. All other attributes (heel, mid foot, and internal forefoot dimensions) will be taken care of with your customized last.

 

@IPv6Freely : Not right away unfortunately. Will follow up on status at a later date. 

 

@Cavs019: Stiffness is not a general option to select from at this point but if you note it in the foot scan, it will be addressed. If you want more comfort (added ankle padding for example) - add it as a note to the scan on the ankle area. Etc. Basically instead of saying Here are 12 different specs of ankle pads to choose from - pick one. Instead we are saying tell us your issue or need and let the experts who have done this for years help you pick whats right. In most cases not everyone one knows what memory foam vs. minicell does and sometimes ends up delivering a product that is not right. Hopefully that makes sense? 

 

[JDub 29]

16 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

I feel like I'm repeating myself - I posted this two pages back.

The "stay in family" refers to the boot, primarily in terms of volume.

This is absolutely nothing new.  When we did custom skates before, we would recommend the boot with the path of least resistance as a base.  That's why you don't see low volume Nexus skates or high volume Vapors.  There are 3 lines to work with.  Plus all of those lines skate differently and have different pitches.

CCM is doing the same thing.  What @BlueNux is asking for isn't feasible at this time.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[JDub 29]

2 minutes ago, gdl188 said:

Really appreciate the write up from J-Dub. Sorry if this was already covered but when does this all roll out? And what would the turnaround time be? 

Friday - Turnaround is fast but dependent on the volume of orders.