The Things Customers Do

[defence18 1]

In terms of breaking sticks I do not believe that you all are correct in assuming that loading a stick in the store and not allowing it to also unload will cause it to break versus the loading/unloading that occurs when a shot is taken.

However, if a stick is loaded to a point under it's critical loading limit, it will not make a difference whether or not it is unloaded.  This type of loading and unloading evenly is only beneficial in terms of fatigue, which really doesn't come into play until these loading/unloading cycles have reached somwhere on the order of thousands or millions.

The reasons that sticks may break quickly is due to flaws which exist in the materials.  When a stick is loaded, this flaw will propogate, whether or not, the stick is unloaded.  When a stick is loaded, the stress is still lower than that of the yield strength of the material, and therefore the materials do not deform plastically, but will return to their original states the same way a rubber band will return to its original form after it is stretched.  Therefore, unloading the stick will not reverse the flaw propogation process.

But, flexing a stick a normal amount will not decrease the life of the stick.

I completely disagree with this post (I did remove portions of the original post that argued that people who put all they're weight into the stick are wrong). First, the main difference between flexing a stick on the ice and off the ice is that different forces are used on it. Flexing a stick in a store is entirely a downward force on the stick. There is no force in a hockey game that is going to put only a downward force on the stick. Now, as brought up earlier in this thread, when you take a shot that flexes your stick, you have two forces on it, a downward force and a forward force. The energy that the forward force creates is largely dissipated by the smooth, nearly frictionless ice surface. So even if you think that you are applying the same force on the stick in the store as you are on the ice, you are not. The sticks are designed for a combination of forward and downward forces. In the store, it is impossible to replicate these forces, because there is too much friction on the floor to give the same forward movement with the same force. However, when people simply try to test the flex, the downward force on the stick is not what it is designed for.

That being said, I have nothing against someone testing the flex of a stick. In my mind I have a point where if I see them go over, then I ask them to stop. You can get a feel for the flex of a stick long before I ask someone to stop. And like Darkstar said, you know who's looking to buy and who isn't.

[jbgordon 0]

The same moment or torque is applied in either case (in the store, or on the ice). That's what causes the stick to flex...torque. You can't flex the stick the same amount in both cases without the torque being the same. Trust me, I'm a graduate student studying Mechanical Engineering at MIT.

Flexing the stick in a store a light amount, in order to get a fell for the stick should not damage a stick. And if it does, then there is an obvious manufacturer defect, and why would anyone want to buy it. You guys talk about sticks as if they are weak twigs, when in reality they are very strong and the only reason they may be weak is certain cases is because of material defects.

Edited May 5, 2006 by jbgordon

[Langenbrunner15 0]

The same moment or torque is applied in either case (in the store, or on the ice). That's what causes the stick to flex...torque. You can't flex the stick the same amount in both cases without the torque being the same. Trust me, I'm a graduate student studying Mechanical Engineering at MIT.

Flexing the stick in a store a light amount, in order to get a fell for the stick should not damage a stick. And if it does, then there is an obvious manufacturer defect, and why would anyone want to buy it. You guys talk about sticks as if they are weak twigs, when in reality they are very strong and the only reason they may be weak is certain cases is because of material defects.

durability only goes so far...

[Chadd 916]

The same moment or torque is applied in either case (in the store, or on the ice). That's what causes the stick to flex...torque. You can't flex the stick the same amount in both cases without the torque being the same. Trust me, I'm a graduate student studying Mechanical Engineering at MIT.

Flexing the stick in a store a light amount, in order to get a fell for the stick should not damage a stick. And if it does, then there is an obvious manufacturer defect, and why would anyone want to buy it. You guys talk about sticks as if they are weak twigs, when in reality they are very strong and the only reason they may be weak is certain cases is because of material defects.

There's a big difference between seeing how much force is required to make it begin to flex and laying into a stick to see how far it will bend. There are a large number of people who insist on seeing how far they can make a stick bend.

[ctaz 0]

There's a big difference between seeing how much force is required to make it begin to flex and laying into a stick to see how far it will bend. There are a large number of people who insist on seeing how far they can make a stick bend.

The former being reasonable for a consumer to do and the latter being completely moronic and wrong. Flexing a stick to the point where it can break like a twig is obviously a great testament to how strong Joe Hockeyplayer is.

[defence18 1]

The same moment or torque is applied in either case (in the store, or on the ice). That's what causes the stick to flex...torque. You can't flex the stick the same amount in both cases without the torque being the same. Trust me, I'm a graduate student studying Mechanical Engineering at MIT.

Flexing the stick in a store a light amount, in order to get a fell for the stick should not damage a stick. And if it does, then there is an obvious manufacturer defect, and why would anyone want to buy it. You guys talk about sticks as if they are weak twigs, when in reality they are very strong and the only reason they may be weak is certain cases is because of material defects.

The static loading of the OPS in the shop can greatly exceed that of the the loading on the ice. Thereforce, mircroscopic breaks can occur in the composite structure of the stick. This can lead to either immediate failure or subsequent failure for the purchaser. These conditions are impossible for the consumer to evaluate.

BTW, while I'm an English major, my father has a degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering, and he advised me. So I can understand if you don't trust me, but trust him.

[jbgordon 0]

I trust him, and I am saying the same thing as your father. When you flex a stick in the store like most of us on this board do, it is only a couple of inches, which is not excessive loading. If you get a kid who leans on the stick with all of his/her weight, then I can understand store managers being angry. But, normal flexing of a couple of inches to get the feel for the stick, will not damage it.

[sniper14 0]

i agree with that yea you give it alittle flex but not alll your weight!

[Chadd 916]

I actually had a could kids try doing chin ups and stand on a 120 flex Fury that Keith gave me. That thing was a freaking tank, there was no way I could make it bend when I was shooting.

[finkster 0]

lol

its "zaftra" darkstar

next time they are wispering say

"ya panimayu ruski"

nyet, nee penyamiyete po ruski

with a roll of the toung :-)

[DarkStar50 679]

The same moment or torque is applied in either case (in the store, or on the ice). That's what causes the stick to flex...torque. You can't flex the stick the same amount in both cases without the torque being the same. Trust me, I'm a graduate student studying Mechanical Engineering at MIT.

Flexing the stick in a store a light amount, in order to get a fell for the stick should not damage a stick. And if it does, then there is an obvious manufacturer defect, and why would anyone want to buy it. You guys talk about sticks as if they are weak twigs, when in reality they are very strong and the only reason they may be weak is certain cases is because of material defects.

Stop by the shop with your OPS and defence18 and I will test the flex of your OPS in the shop on the floor, not the rink which is 20' outside the door. Just busting your balls.........

[finkster 0]

Id be annoyed if you bought a stick or not. Flexing the sticks proves nothing. It just makes you look like a retard. And also puts unneccasary stress on ALL THE OTHER sticks that you DIDNT buy. And wow, you bought a $100 stick. Way to go. Thats a way to make a store's day!

Sounds like you might need to find a new line of work, or maybe just work with pro hockey players. Maybe post a sign next to the "Open" sign that says something like..

"We only sell to people who are experts in hockey and hockey equipment. If you are a novice, please visit our competitor."

[moose77 0]

i hate it when:

3. when kids start pulling on the store dog's tail and chase him to the back and try to go upstairs

5. people who come in and ask if we sell pool sticks and cases. Wtf? THE HOCKEY SHOP SOURCE FOR SPORTS.

As soon as you mentioned chasing the store dog around, I had an idea what shop you work at. Reading point #5 confirmed it.

Thought you might like to know, one of the main reasons I shop at your store when I'm in Surrey is the chance that Bode (sp?) will be there. My boys think he's pretty cool as well. In fact when I tell them we need to make a stop at The Hockey Shop, first thing they say is "Bode!"

You folks do have one of the coolest LHS's I've ever been in.

[DarkStar50 679]

At my last shop we used to have a golden retriever named Molson. He was a really cool dog.

[hamstercaster 2]

Wow, these are some horror stories... Now I know of a few things not to do in LHS... at least if I'm not planning on buying. For flexing sticks, if I'm gonna buy, I sure am gonna flex a stick because unlike someone said earlier, a 85 flex is not a 85 flex on all sticks. I have a powertech at home that has a 100 flex and the Bauer Hossa 87 flex is stiffer and my friends OPS 100 flex is way stiffer than my powertech.

As for skates, I'm not guitly of trying to fit some to buy them online as I've had the same skates for a while now and they are still holding up quite good. I did however try on gloves I expect to buy on E-bay, but may change my mind on that one though as I realize that it may not be the best thing to do... morally that is lol.

Either way, as I customer I expect and do receive a service when I go to a shop and I respect the shop owners and their employees for that and it is the reason why I usually buy my stuff in a LHS instead of Canadian Tire for exemple. In a LHS you get service. At Canadian Tire you don't ;-)

One thing I wish existed though in LHS are demo hockeys, a net and a puck to try out the sticks. But for that to happen the companies would have to accept to give you those demo sticks for free though. Specially if one wants to purchase a 250$ stick but would like to try a new curve, it would be nice to be able to shoot a few pucks with a demo but this would be to costly for shop owners though...

Anyway, props go out to you guys for putting up with customers that are ultimatly never happy and impossible to please to begin with!!

[hockeymom 2]

Fascinating thread... I'm learning a lot about how to be a good customer!

I'm surprised no mention of the thing I've long thought must be a bone of contention...having to listen to long stories about little Johnny's or little Suzie's hockey feats!!

Although I've come a long way in the last 8 years... I've been that rookie mom who put her 6 yr girl in a jock cuz I didn't know there was such a thing as a jill and who blindly accepted the wrong LHS advise (they know more than me, right?) and bought the wrong skates the first time out. Bless the people who took the time to educate me those first few years (you mean there's a right and a left and which way do they go up? I was SO relieved to get to the garter belt!! LOL). Actually, the only people I knew in hockey back then were with the Canucks (a former client) and a couple of the guys kindly started me on the path of the "science" of equipment. Didn't know then that it would become an obsession LOL.

Ti-Girl mentioned one of my pet peeves... SOME LHS staff are pretty dismissive of girls' hockey... it's hard to feel you're getting the best advise when there's an undertone of "well, it doesn't really matter cuz its' just girls' hockey".

Add to that that many LHS staff play hockey but don't know hockey equipment. It's made me a fanatical researcher so I can be an informed consumer.

Here's what I've loved...

The skate fitter who...

1. doesn't get (or at least doesn't show it) impatient that my kid is spending at least 1/2 an hour in the skates - she's picky about fit and is very hard to fit. These people make the skate buying ordeal SO much easier!

2. is attentive but gives us some private time to talk about the skates. (Go take care of that other customer or reorganize those gloves - hovering adds to the pressure) Although getting better about it, my daughter is shy and doesn't like to be "rude" about not liking something in front of them... so the people who give us the "friendly space" allow her to open up and say what's going on in those skates...and then I can feed back the info/open the dialogue with the fitter and my daughter will then join in.

3. Ahh! one in a million... the fitter who not only knows the skates and can be informative about it but ALSO knows feet and bio-mechanics. And if he's still working there the next time you need skates... huge bonus!

After I made my first mistakes I realized I had to know more, so I've always tended to try to go back to the science of it to figure out what makes sense. The informed LHS staff who have helped me marry the product information to the realities of playing hockey have been invaluable along the way. Between that and lurking on MSH I've muddled my way thru.

So, thanks to all of you out there who are helping other people like me along the way! It is much appreciated.

Edited June 13, 2006 by hockeymom

[#44wannabe 4]

The one time ive purposefully been a dickhead customer was when i boguht a rbk 5k stick from my LHS for the blade to split down the middle after 3 ice sessions. I took it back and sai what do i do about the warrenty? Thier reply was dont worry, we'll sort it out. So i left my phone number and name for them to call when they had done it. 2 weeks later no call so i called to see what was up. Oh sorry we forgot about it they replied. Another 2 weeks later i called, oh sorry we forgot about it. By now i was pissed so a week later i went there in person and said i needed my stick as my spare had broken (which it had) so they gave me an easton octane to use and i picked up a cheap ass stcik as a back up. So naturally in practice i really at it with this twig and broke it. I returned with a smug grin and said you got my stick in yet? Again they said no so i got money back and went online. 7 weeks ffs.

[jimmy 194]

The one time ive purposefully been a dickhead customer was when i boguht a rbk 5k stick from my LHS for the blade to split down the middle after 3 ice sessions. I took it back and sai what do i do about the warrenty? Thier reply was dont worry, we'll sort it out. So i left my phone number and name for them to call when they had done it. 2 weeks later no call so i called to see what was up. Oh sorry we forgot about it they replied. Another 2 weeks later i called, oh sorry we forgot about it. By now i was pissed so a week later i went there in person and said i needed my stick as my spare had broken (which it had) so they gave me an easton octane to use and i picked up a cheap ass stcik as a back up. So naturally in practice i really at it with this twig and broke it. I returned with a smug grin and said you got my stick in yet? Again they said no so i got money back and went online. 7 weeks ffs.

Stores do not handle RBK warranty claims. You screwed up, you should have just followed the warrany directions written on the stick. All RBK warranties are handled customer direct to the company. Once you buy the stick, the LHS is out of the picture. They should have told you this when you bought the stick. Funny, we tell EVERY customer that claims must be direct to the company, yet they still come to the store wanting us to do something.

Edited June 14, 2006 by jimmy

[DarkStar50 679]

Listening is never part of the equation for the customer. They will always hear only what they want to hear. Sometimes that is why we scream, after they have left.

BTW, I do know that many MSHers listen but the majority of customers just don't bother no matter how many times we tell them.

[JohnDoeGoalie 0]

I love everything about the hockey retail business except the customers.

[Gongshow11 1]

The one time ive purposefully been a dickhead customer was when i boguht a rbk 5k stick from my LHS for the blade to split down the middle after 3 ice sessions. I took it back and sai what do i do about the warrenty? Thier reply was dont worry, we'll sort it out. So i left my phone number and name for them to call when they had done it. 2 weeks later no call so i called to see what was up. Oh sorry we forgot about it they replied. Another 2 weeks later i called, oh sorry we forgot about it. By now i was pissed so a week later i went there in person and said i needed my stick as my spare had broken (which it had) so they gave me an easton octane to use and i picked up a cheap ass stcik as a back up. So naturally in practice i really at it with this twig and broke it. I returned with a smug grin and said you got my stick in yet? Again they said no so i got money back and went online. 7 weeks ffs.

Stores do not handle RBK warranty claims. You screwed up, you should have just followed the warrany directions written on the stick. All RBK warranties are handled customer direct to the company. Once you buy the stick, the LHS is out of the picture. They should have told you this when you bought the stick. Funny, we tell EVERY customer that claims must be direct to the company, yet they still come to the store wanting us to do something.

he's a euro, could be different warrenty situation

[jimmy 194]

The one time ive purposefully been a dickhead customer was when i boguht a rbk 5k stick from my LHS for the blade to split down the middle after 3 ice sessions. I took it back and sai what do i do about the warrenty? Thier reply was dont worry, we'll sort it out. So i left my phone number and name for them to call when they had done it. 2 weeks later no call so i called to see what was up. Oh sorry we forgot about it they replied. Another 2 weeks later i called, oh sorry we forgot about it. By now i was pissed so a week later i went there in person and said i needed my stick as my spare had broken (which it had) so they gave me an easton octane to use and i picked up a cheap ass stcik as a back up. So naturally in practice i really at it with this twig and broke it. I returned with a smug grin and said you got my stick in yet? Again they said no so i got money back and went online. 7 weeks ffs.

Stores do not handle RBK warranty claims. You screwed up, you should have just followed the warrany directions written on the stick. All RBK warranties are handled customer direct to the company. Once you buy the stick, the LHS is out of the picture. They should have told you this when you bought the stick. Funny, we tell EVERY customer that claims must be direct to the company, yet they still come to the store wanting us to do something.

he's a euro, could be different warrenty situation

true, didn't see that

[#44wannabe 4]

You also seemed to miss the part where i asked the store what i should do for the warrenty and they said 'don't worry, we'll handle it'.

Edited June 14, 2006 by #44wannabe

[flip12 712]

How do you feel if I as a customer ask you to sharpen the front and back of the blade on my skates? Some places don't sharpen them that way. It seems like a 50/50 thing; either they do it one way or the other. Is there any reason why? I've thought about it and if they sharpen pretty much just the flat it probably wouldn't affect my skating but the place I started with back home did them that way. It just bothers me for no good reason. When I've asked once or twice if they'll do them the way I want they usually give me the "it won't make any difference" with the tone of (you don't know wtf you're talking about, just pay up for what I give you when you leave).

P.S. I'm loving this post, never having worked at an LHS before. I've never thought about the stick flexing. I have always done it to feel what the stiffness is like, especially now that I've been reading on here that the same stiffness rating from different companies is not the same stiffness in the actual stick. Maybe next time I'll ask the workers how they feel about it because there are lots of different opinions on it in this post.

Edited June 15, 2006 by flip12

[Edge 0]

couple things lately...

we offer free skate sharpening on skates purchased from us. People who come in and want free skate sharpening claiming the bought the skates from us. Problem is we never carried that model skate.

Beginner or not-so-good players who come in wanting all this out of the ordinary sharpening and other things done to their skates when they have no idea of the benefit/disadvantage of it is. For example one of my buddies came into the shop and wanted a 1" sharpening when he had been using a 3/8 cut for the longest time. By the way he is a pretty small kid. Well i totally disagreed with that, and just to kind of see, we sharpened them at 3/8 again without telling him. Next time he came in I asked him what he thought and he said something like "much better! it helps so much." or something like that.