The Things Customers Do

[BenderHockey 127]

I had to explain to a 22 year old what porridge is when she's never even heard the word.

Come on... EVERYONE has heard Goldilocks and the 3 bears....

[shotty 7]

its called oatmeal now. get with the times, ya floozie.

[pass the bisk 0]

Your case is different to what WSjo22 is trying to get at. Obviously if your LHS doesn't have the certain item in stock and won't be able to order them in a much shorter time frame, then it's no big deal to go elsewhere.

It's a slap in the face to the LHS when the customer knows full well that they're not going to buy there, but just using the place for fitting purposes, and to go online because it may be "cheaper."

I understand, however, it is because of things like I stated that people get turned off by LHS. Its kind of like when people debate buying fake jerseys overseas and then the whole "shipping jobs overseas, keep money here" argument comes up.

[JR Boucicaut 3795]

Over the weekend, I went into my LHS with my hopes on buying a totalone stick. Have never even picked one up before. If I use a Bauer stick, it is always in 77 flex and PM9 curve. I go to the shop, look for my flex and curve, but they don't have it. I still pick the stick up to see how light it is and etc, but then I go to the sales clerk and ask if they will be getting any in. He says no. I ask if he can order them. He said not for another couple months. So what do I do? I go online and buy a it. What should I do? Get a stick with a curve or flex I won't like all because its the best my lhs can do? I don't think so.

That is understandable; they didn't have what you wanted.

It's not the same argument.

[WSjo22 1]

I understand, however, it is because of things like I stated that people get turned off by LHS. Its kind of like when people debate buying fake jerseys overseas and then the whole "shipping jobs overseas, keep money here" argument comes up.

My point wasn't anything remotely similar to what you imply with the fake jerseys. Clothing companies have used foriegn labor for years so I would never bring that item up in a debate of similar topics. My main point is the ideologies of some individuals are very hypocratic, they argue the operating principles of certain industries and business are unethical yet act in similar fashion when it comes to decisions and buying habits that affected an individuals finances...

In layman's terms, you can't go to the plumber or mechanic and use their tools or try their parts out to see if the fix your problems without paying for it, why should you be able to go to the LHS or similar business and do that?

[pass the bisk 0]

My point wasn't anything remotely similar to what you imply with the fake jerseys. Clothing companies have used foriegn labor for years so I would never bring that item up in a debate of similar topics. My main point is the ideologies of some individuals are very hypocratic, they argue the operating principles of certain industries and business are unethical yet act in similar fashion when it comes to decisions and buying habits that affected an individuals finances...

In layman's terms, you can't go to the plumber or mechanic and use their tools or try their parts out to see if the fix your problems without paying for it, why should you be able to go to the LHS or similar business and do that?

I should have fully elaborated on my example more. What I meant is that when people argue lhs vs online store, it is like the same debate of buying fake jerseys vs real ones. One side will say that one provides a cheaper product and the other will say that we should spend our money here. It was more of a general observation than a rebuttle.

I fully understand that people think it is bs when a person comes to there shop only to try out and item but not to buy. However, you have to look at it through the eyes of the consumer. You take a risk when buying something online in the sense that you cannot try it out. However, if you lhs has it, you can check it out, then buy it cheaper online. I mean in the eyes of the lhs owner, it is a pretty s***** thing to do, but in the eyes on the consumer, it is a reassuring thing a person can do before they invest in a product.

That is understandable; they didn't have what you wanted.

It's not the same argument.

The problem is, this has become the norm with my lhs. It is why I take my business elsewhere. Unfortunately, we all have different experiences with our respective lhs so it is hard to properly debate this topic. One person's lhs could have great customer service and offer awesome incentives to buy, but another person (like me) could have just the opposite. It makes debating tough.

[AIREAYE 248]

The fee is credited towards your purchase if you do not purchase at that time. This is clearly stated on the signage regarding the fee. I think the fee clearly separates those with intent to buy from those who are "tire-kickers". If we do not have a skate in stock after measuring, we let the customer know up front the situation. If there is no skate in stock, of course, we are not charging a fee. We have an extremely educated staff with a lot of experience. At the same time, in the rink pro shop, we run a tight staff with customers coming in like surges at different times depending on the games, practices, etc. It is important to help those people who have to get on the ice in a game or practice immediately that skate regularly and often in our building from those "customers" that are doing research. The importance of helping someone at once that is ready with cash in hand at the register is paramount to the person just looking to try on gear and tie up a salesman. No matter how that sounds, this is a business.

With regards to skate baking and other services, I have to charge now to insert blades on shafts, as well. Guys buy them at Modells or online and then want us to pull out their busted blade and insert the one they bought elsewhere. This is a service and now I can't help that customer at the register ready to buy because I'm in the service room for 10 minutes changing a mangled busted blade in the shaft. I encourage people to go to Home Depot and buy a heat gun. We did.

Everybody wants something for nothing. Sorry, that's not the way it works.

I don't quite understand this fee. I was shopping around for skates recently and here in the GTA, there are a wide range of hockey stores, from the big-box Sportchek, to the medium Pro Hockey Life chains to the LHS'. I tried skates at all three places, but didn't find anything that fit. I ended up buying a perfect pair of S15s at Hockey Experts. So if you were the LHS, you would charge me the $20 fee because I tried on some skates but didnt find anything that fit?

[WSjo22 1]

Where will you guys go to try your gear on when it no longer makes economical sense for the lhs to carry product? Think the online stores will ship you the gear to try on for free so you can then see where you can find it the cheapest?

[vaporboy12 0]

We had a silver Stick tourny at the the rink this weekend. We had a sales everything 10% off. Guy comes in wanted an 8k helmet. He asked if he could get a better deal on it, I said yeah 10% off he said can I get anymore off. "I buy everything here is what he says". Which he wheeling around a bag we don't sell a pair of skates we don't sell and so on. I told him sorry 10% is the best I can do on it. " I will by it elsewhere" a lot of people would crack and give him more. I told him to have a nice day. Couple hours later he tries the same skit on on another employee, and ends up buying the helmet at 10% off. I don't mind helping people I see in the shop all the time. Ill pretty much go out of my way to help them. Then there are the people that want everything for free. Sorry for my rant.

[Lee-Bro 1]

I'm trying really hard to not get more involved in this conversation. That being said...

I understand the limited selection locally=buying online. As long we all agree on that, my next point...

The issue I have is when a customer goes to a store, gets fitted and THEN buys the exact thing online when they could've bought the product at the store, even if it's more. You get what you pay for. Some people look at this strictly as product purchase. That's perfectly fine, just don't use an LHS' service to determine your product selection or at least pay them for the service.

Another poster mentioned: "However, if you lhs has it, you can check it out, then buy it cheaper online. I mean in the eyes of the lhs owner, it is a pretty s***** thing to do, but in the eyes on the consumer, it is a reassuring thing a person can do before they invest in a product." To be blunt, the LHS made a much larger investment than any customer without any reassurance. As an entrepreneur they took on the risk of independent business and all the fun stuff entailed there.

The point being is it's unethical to use someone's time, service, and their resources to save money. How much do you think skilled and knowledgeable labor is worth per hour...$50, $75, $150? If you use their inventory as your research tools, you're contributing to their inability to buy larger inventories and offer better pricing. You're hunting yourself into starvation. In my previous post about the differences between LHS & virtual stores I mentioned labor costs. Even if YOU, YOURSELF, are super delicate and polite, not everyone is that way and repeated handling does cause wear & tear on inventory -which I already addressed. But to make up for margin lost on those items, margin has to be maintained on other items.

We're all adults and understand all of these points. What I'm reading is that the real rub people are feeling about this particular discussion is not rewarding those who do the work of providing a service by being there for your research, especially when the exact or similar enough product could have been bought from the LHS.

Inventory sucks? Ok, go online.

Teenage kids working the desk suck? Ok, go online -but make sure you let the LHS owner know that you'd like to give him the business but his investment (staff) is making it hard for you to invest with him. Most LHS owners I've met work the counter at some point.

You live where hockey doesn't exist? Fine, go online or next time you take a trip, do some Googling and let the LHS' know you'll be in town and you'd appreciate some time.

A final note, for whatever reason or feelings you have about LHS vs. online, if you're not able to give the business to the LHS even for the exact same product you tried on and you don't believe in paying a service fee, buy the guys lunch. You'd be amazed as to how much good will a large pepperoni pizza and 2 liter of Coke will buy you. Most LHS' are somewhat close to a pizza joint of some sort (pizza from the rink doesn't count). Pizza & Cokes can easily be done under $15. You'll be welcomed back w/ open arms for that one even if you didn't spend a penny.

[DarkStar50 679]

Don't apologize. Until they spend one day working in a LHS/Pro Shop, they really don't have a clue what it's like to deal with John Q. Public.

Lee-Bro gets it.

[jimmy 194]

Guy comes in and asks me if I can order his kid four of a certain model goal stick. I said sure, I'll order them and they'll be here in a week. Week goes by and I call him to let him know they are in. Oh, he says, I bought them elsewhere. So, should I ban him from the store? he's never bought anything here in the last 7 yrs, only sharpenings.

[DarkStar50 679]

Take his credit card number before ordering. It's a special order, you are married to it. NOTE: if it is an item you do not normally stock. Same thing happened to me. Guy orders size 230 RBK steel. I don't get his CC #. I call him when the steel comes in. "OH, we bought new skates. I don't need the steel anymore." Any questions? And size 230 RBK steel is not something that will check out soon.

[jimmy 194]

Take his credit card number before ordering. It's a special order, you are married to it. NOTE: if it is an item you do not normally stock. Same thing happened to me. Guy orders size 230 RBK steel. I don't get his CC #. I call him when the steel comes in. "OH, we bought new skates. I don't need the steel anymore." Any questions? And size 230 RBK steel is not something that will check out soon.

Only problem with that is all they have to do is dispute the charge. I did learn long ago if it's something I can't easily resell, I take full payment up front. It's just that the act itself that is wrong. BTW, I sell tons of 230 RBKs. :-)

Less than 15 min ago my wife just finished sizing someone for RBKs. The mom was having the younger brother try on skates (he was same size as older brother) for a xmas present. After she was finished, she said great, now I can but them for $199 at hockey monkey. Ahhh. Now BANNED FOR LIFE.

[Chadd 916]

Ok, I think I got most of the last pissing match cleaned up. Let's not get back into it.

[Buzz_LightBeer 969]

Had a gentleman in the shop recently ask if I would knock $10 off a sale stick to match internet pricing, which I declined to do. He then proceeded to divulge that he was picking up said stick for his son, "whose bus leaves for the tournament in 20 minutes," and how grateful he was that we had that model in that particular flex and pattern, "because that curve and flex can't be found anywhere online anymore." Was it worth the extra $10? I'm thinking yes.

[WSjo22 1]

Go into the shop the other day to pick up a list of things I need runners with a profile put on, a few twigs, and a set off shoulder pads. They didn't have the shoulder pads I wanted and couldn't order them in. I grab the other stuff I need and go to check out to find out they didn't charge me the $30 for the profile only for the $4.95 sharpening and gave me a bulk pack pricing on the 3 S19's I got that wouldn't be done anywhere online while also throwing in the two types of tape I use that can't be bought anywhere in the area other than there for nothing.

Don't think I could save the money I did there online, saved enough to almost cover the shoulder pads I had to order...

Edit..... I know it's off topic but after the recent debate I thought I'd post a quickie on the good things shops do when you're loyal to them

Edited December 4, 2010 by WSjo22

[shotty 7]

thats a sweet deal. as someone said earlier on, i think that deserves a pizza and a pop, next time you're there.

[Lee-Bro 1]

Reading the Bauer warranty thread about someone buying 2 sticks of the same model but at different times to return the older (broken) stick under the new stick warranty, it made me think of my days in music retail. Almost all the music manufacturers put serial numbers on everything. Every cymbal, individual drum, guitar, effects pedal, etc had a unique serial number. At check out, we would record serial numbers on the receipt for warranty (and our protection) purposes.

There were a few exceptions because not every company used numbers on all their lines of products. But I must say that once I instituted this policy, the number of claims we helped process went down. As a side note to that, it did not cost us the sales of the 2nd purchase. Many clients were very pleased to find out that we were doing that because some of the companies had mail-in warranty registration cards. We sent all these in for the customer at the time of purchase as a value-add service. The companies now had a record of ownership & purchase. In addition, a few of the companies we dealt with kept chain of command records -meaning they knew when it left the factory, which distribution center it went to, which LMS (local music store) bought it for their inventory, and for those who actually had warranty registration cards, who ended up buying it at the retail store.

You'd think putting serial numbers on receipts at time of purchase would've been a standard procedure. But not so. I found out that what we were doing was "against the grain" of what a lot of other stores were doing -which was actually ENCOURAGING the "buy, break, buy, switch & claim" process. I spoke w/ a few of the LMS owners who did this and their position was a customer who only had a 1 year warranty on something now pretty much gave the customer an unlimited warranty.

All that was 15+ years ago so I'm not sure how much serial number recording is going on, but I do know more manufacturers are issuing them and requiring registration now.

It's not that hard to imprint a serial number on modern gear and/or sticks. I wonder how many manufacturers have experimented with this?

A final note for you LHS owners, here's something we did at the music store on all non-serialed products: if you want to create you're own serial number system, get white or invisible (blacklight reactive) U.V. paint (sometimes referred to as "blacklight paint") and a stamp pad kit. You stamp the date of purchase, store initials or something similar. You determine the best place for the stamp, maybe 2 places, for each different product -maybe gloves get it between the cuffs, under the caps on shoulders, etc. Since it's UV, it's not visible to the naked eye (if you go that route). You keep a black light handy that way when someone brings something in, you check it for your mark. If a stamp doesn't fit/work, you can always get UV paint pens.

Cheers!

[raganblink 82]

I gotta rage...

There is a local, who visits the shop frequently. I'd say a loyal customer, he's bought numerous items in here, has a skate pass, and we see him probably once every two weeks....

Since October he has came into the shop, roughly once every two weeks, and talks to us about a pair of upper-mid skates (~300-400). He has literally tried on a dozen pairs in that range, and we have spent over 5 hours in-store time helping him. He obviously is trying on every size, width, and model variation for what we have in that price range. We talk about what separates them all etc. We finally got in our CCM 12s last week, and contact him, as the only reason he has said he didn't buy skates from us previously is b/c we didn't have them for him to try on yet. So we're figuring that after he tries those on, he'll decide what one he wants (very picky I know, but anyways)...

So a couple days after we got in contact with him, he messages us asking how late we are open this weekend, as he has a pair of skates that need to be baked and sharpened. We're thinking maybe that he was going to get the skates from us, and just didnt want to take too long of our time. Nope. Trucker comes into the shop with a pair of one80s, that have not been sharpened. The same width and size we have had in stock this whole time. Reason he didn't get them from us? We'll apparently, as he was in Saint Louis, he visited TotalHockey (our biggest competitor, really) and was trying on skates. And apparently he only paid 340 for them. But here's the kicker, if he actually visited instore, wouldn't he had got them baked and sharpened? knowing full well his LHS charges 25 bucks a pair for non-store bought bake/sharp. So he ended up spending 365 on these + tax. Still a deal in his eyes probably. But he also knows damn full well that we'd knock off some % if it meant having a 380 dollar sale or not having one. Also tax is higher in STL, so he had to spend 380-390 after tax, if he actually did get them for that price.

Sorry to write a novel. I feel realllly betrayed and angry its not even funny. If he ever does that again with anything he's never welcome back. Infact, I probably shoulda told him we're not sharpening these or baking them, and that he's never welcome back. But being the only sharpener /baker in town, he'd bad mouth us, and then someone would get the idea to get a sharpener and we'd lose a bit of business. Ohwell people get a second chance... this time.

Edited December 5, 2010 by raganblink

[DarkStar50 679]

Well, he won't be allowed to jump the line when he needs his skates sharpened in a rush, will he? How far is it to St. Louis? 'Cause if he has a problem with the skates..................

[EvilPepe 24]

It sucks when that happens. I've got a goalie who I've taken care of pretty damn well since he started (being a goalie and in a non-traditional area where the equipment is hard to come by, I help him out best I can) who pulled the same exact thing on me recently on some pads and a mask.

I get the parents of travel players do that a fair amount, too. They have their kid try on every pair of skates in the shop, think about it for weeks, and finally buy them while at a weekend tournament somewhere else (thus not getting their association discount or free sharpening, baking, and radius if needed).

I think some people who have been looking at something for awhile trying to make up their minds get to that point where they just say "F it" and make a purchase without considering it at all. *shrug*

[Lee-Bro 1]

It's discouraging when you invest so much time, energy, and knowledge into someone and they pull turn out to be a Clyde* We all learn the hard way though. One thing I used to do w/ my non-exclusive type semi-regulars was after spending some time explaining diff't product lines, etc, would be to give them the version of my business card that had my direct line & VM and tell them that I want to be their "drum guy." Meaning that if they wanted to buy something we didn't have in stock or normally carry, they'd call me first; if they were price shopping to give me a chance to put together package deal*; and if they ever had a gear emergency, to call me first because my store was the only one in town w/ delivery service and mobile repair truck*.

Clyde - store visitors who never bought, only pumped us for knowledge, demo'd our equipment; named after a guy named Clyded who bought all his kids equipment from a catalog after checking everything out in the store. The store owner ended up having to tell him, as polite as possible, not to come back.

Package Deal-a lot of times, I knew there was no way I could price match. The next best thing I could do was put together a package (eg: drum kit, extra heads, box of sticks, extra cymbal stand, cymbal bag, t-shirts) and see if they would go for it. I'd say I had about a 50% success rate w/ that. If they took the deal, I ended up moving more inventory, at a slightly lower overall margin, but now they "have a guy." The times it didn't work out, I'd say it's because they were price shopping because they had only so many dollars.

Mobile Repair Truck-It was a late 80's Nissan w/ a cap on the back. It's amazing how much stuff you can get into one of those things.

[NextBobbyOrr 0]

Raganblink, after reading your post, I just had a question. So is me going to 2 different local shops wrong? I'm loyal to both of them, and I've never done anything like try one of their products on in "store A" and buy it in "store B". Same with sharpening or maintenance for whatever piece I have. If I need to fix it, I bring it to the store I bought it. The only time that I've actually brought a product I never bought from them is an X:60 off recall to get a plug. Am I doing anything wrong or that might annoy them? Or would any of you shop owners consider this annoying or wrong?

[EvilPepe 24]

Raganblink, after reading your post, I just had a question. So is me going to 2 different local shops wrong? I'm loyal to both of them, and I've never done anything like try one of their products on in "store A" and buy it in "store B". Same with sharpening or maintenance for whatever piece I have. If I need to fix it, I bring it to the store I bought it. The only time that I've actually brought a product I never bought from them is an X:60 off recall to get a plug. Am I doing anything wrong or that might annoy them? Or would any of you shop owners consider this annoying or wrong?

Can't speak for others, but personally I don't see anything wrong with this, really. So long as you aren't being a jackass about it and doing things like calling one store while you are in the other in order to try and haggle over prices. Stuff like that will get you in trouble with both places pretty quick and you will find you won't get a deal at either place anymore.

Quite a few of my customers shop at our store and another. Without going into detail, the nature of our shop dictates we have a smaller inventory (but still a decently wide selection at most times) than the other store, but most people find we are considerably better when it comes to fitting and repair work. People make their decisions based on these things, and I understand that (and I think most shop owners and workers do).