Balsillie's Back

[Bane 1]

I dunno...do they sell to Balsillie is the question...

I know the league is less than happy with what he pulled last time, but he seems to be more slightly measured in his response this time around...

From what little I have heard though, it sounds like the financing is in place. Realistically with the current state of the economy, the NHL is going to have a tough time finding a group to foot the bill to keep the team in Phoenix.

Additionally, would the league accept a lesser offer to move the team to a place like Kansas City, Houston, or Vegas?

Maybe we'll get another chance at the Coyotes here in San Diego. We were in the running when they moved out of Winnipeg, we elected to spend money on the Super Bowl instead.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Oh, and another team in Ontario would mean that someone would have to move to the west. I think Pittsburgh is the westernmost team in the east, that would then mean that someone would have to move out of the central. St Louis would be the most logical there but that would put them in a division with LA, the Ducks, SJ and Dallas, not a good geographic fit.

MLB does 14AL/16NL

Couldn't they leave it 16 in the East...14 in the West. With a balanced sched you play everyone...so it's not that big a deal...is it?

[Chadd 916]

Oh, and another team in Ontario would mean that someone would have to move to the west. I think Pittsburgh is the westernmost team in the east, that would then mean that someone would have to move out of the central. St Louis would be the most logical there but that would put them in a division with LA, the Ducks, SJ and Dallas, not a good geographic fit.

MLB does 14AL/16NL

Couldn't they leave it 16 in the East...14 in the West. With a balanced sched you play everyone...so it's not that big a deal...is it?

There will be teams that bitch about it being harder to make the playoffs in the east.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Oh, and another team in Ontario would mean that someone would have to move to the west. I think Pittsburgh is the westernmost team in the east, that would then mean that someone would have to move out of the central. St Louis would be the most logical there but that would put them in a division with LA, the Ducks, SJ and Dallas, not a good geographic fit.

MLB does 14AL/16NL

Couldn't they leave it 16 in the East...14 in the West. With a balanced sched you play everyone...so it's not that big a deal...is it?

There will be teams that bitch about it being harder to make the playoffs in the east.

Introduce the dreaded crossover. If 9 in the East has more points than 8 in the West...they make it instead.

Okay, Now I'm just talking crazy....no MB's after midnight...no good can come from it.

[troy 12]

Entirely too far ahead of things, but it would be an interesting situation to watch a team like the Coyotes enter their prime in an Ontario market.

[top 1974 0]

It was obvious that Phoenix were in dire straights over the last three seasons with regards to turning a profit. With the NHL backing payroll, this was inevitable. Hopefully, Gary B will dig in and fight relocation to Canada. This may sound strange coming from a Canadian, but a dispersal draft would enhance the quality of player in the NHL. Ahh, but that leaves 29 teams.... It will be intersting to see if other teams (Tampa Bay - another team loosing money) will follow: (http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090422.rmtampa0422/BNStory/specialROBmagazine/home).

You cannot sustain an NHL franchise with "$39 for two tickets, two hot dogs, two beers and a parking spot". You cant even take a piss at the Calgary Saddledome for 39$.

[ktang 34]

Entirely too far ahead of things, but it would be an interesting situation to watch a team like the Coyotes enter their prime in an Ontario market.

More pressure for the Leafs to get their act together. A 3-way battle of Ontario!

[Jordan 13]

A couple of points about this whole thing:

1) On the Pittsburgh deal; it was Bettman that tried to change terms in the agreement at the 11th hour.

2) Balsillie NEVER broke any rules...Bettman just didn't like it. It is part of the NHL constitution that a new owner has to demostrate the viability of a new market if he desires moving a franchise so the selling of rights to future season's tix is fine.

3) The Pheonix thing is now in bankruptcy court. That trumps Bettman, the NHL bylaws, the lease in Pheonix and well just about everything else. The sole job of the bankruptcy court is to maximize on claims by the creditors...so, for Bettmean to stop Balsillie he would need to find a bidder willing to to pay MORE than him. One of his little side deals like in the Nashville case won't cut it this time.

4) Remember, Bettman works for the owners. They are bleeding all over the US. Another team in Ontario is an instant money maker. That means that the teams that make money (and who are the most powerful organisations) would have one less team to support with equalisation payments and as a result would be making more money. Further, it has been reported that no less tha 9 different owners have approached Balsillie about taking a stake in their team - apparently the owners don't have a problem with him.

Bottom line: Money talks and Bullsh*t walks...Balsillie has the money, and Bettman has the....

Prediction: Balsillie gets the team and it winds up in Kitchener-Waterloo...and Bettman gets a can tied to his azz within one year!

[chippa13 1844]

I dunno...do they sell to Balsillie is the question...

I know the league is less than happy with what he pulled last time, but he seems to be more slightly measured in his response this time around...

From what little I have heard though, it sounds like the financing is in place. Realistically with the current state of the economy, the NHL is going to have a tough time finding a group to foot the bill to keep the team in Phoenix.

Additionally, would the league accept a lesser offer to move the team to a place like Kansas City, Houston, or Vegas?

Maybe we'll get another chance at the Coyotes here in San Diego. We were in the running when they moved out of Winnipeg, we elected to spend money on the Super Bowl instead.

San Diego won't get a team. There is no way they'd have 3 teams in southern California

[Jordan 13]

Additionally, would the league accept a lesser offer to move the team to a place like Kansas City, Houston, or Vegas?

They will not have that option this time. This matter is before the bankruptcy court. the judge has a fiduciary duty to protect the interests of creditors...that means accepting the highest bid.

[Sed27 0]

Additionally, would the league accept a lesser offer to move the team to a place like Kansas City, Houston, or Vegas?

They will not have that option this time. This matter is before the bankruptcy court. the judge has a fiduciary duty to protect the interests of creditors...that means accepting the highest bid.

So if issue is out of the NHL's hands regarding the bankruptcy proceeding and Balsillies' offer is hypothetically accepted by the courts, can the League then block relocation?

I know the bid is contingent on the relocation, but I am confused as to the binding nature of the court proceedings vs. NHL's right to control the location and ownership of its teams.

[HattrickSwayze 3]

I'm just curious if Hamilton, ON has a stadium big enough to support an NHL team? Doesn't the NHL have regulations about minimum seating and all that?

If only Seattle had a new stadium! Not that it will ever happen, but I'll keep dreaming.....

[JGraz15 53]

I hope a southern Ontario team happens for the league...it just makes the most sense.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

It will be intersting to see if other teams (Tampa Bay - another team loosing money) will follow: (http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090422.rmtampa0422/BNStory/specialROBmagazine/home).

You cannot sustain an NHL franchise with "$39 for two tickets, two hot dogs, two beers and a parking spot". You cant even take a piss at the Calgary Saddledome for 39$.

All you need to know is in the article. If the organization is making money on all of the events at the arena, the Lightning are merely 41 days in a calendar year.

[Chadd 916]

Additionally, would the league accept a lesser offer to move the team to a place like Kansas City, Houston, or Vegas?

They will not have that option this time. This matter is before the bankruptcy court. the judge has a fiduciary duty to protect the interests of creditors...that means accepting the highest bid.

So if issue is out of the NHL's hands regarding the bankruptcy proceeding and Balsillies' offer is hypothetically accepted by the courts, can the League then block relocation?

I know the bid is contingent on the reloaction, but I am confused as to the binding nature of the court proceedings vs. NHL's right to control the location and ownership of its teams.

As I understand it:

The offer is conditional on the franchise being moved to Ontario

The bankruptcy court does not have the ability/right to grant that condition

The NHL would have to agree to any franchise relocation

According to comments by the NHL today, they are going to fight this every step of the way. They believe that Balsilie did this to try and do an end run around the official process, and I think anyone would agree with that. Evidently the reason Balsillie convinced the franchise to file for bankruptcy yesterday is because Jerry Reinsdorf was within a day or two of filing his own offer to buy the team and keep them in the Phoenix area.

[Vishi05 0]

I hope a southern Ontario team happens for the league...it just makes the most sense.

Not really, we need some more teams out West so Columbus and Detroit can go into the East where they belong.

I say Las Vegas and Portland or Seattle or Kansas City.

[top 1974 0]

It will be intersting to see if other teams (Tampa Bay - another team loosing money) will follow: (http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090422.rmtampa0422/BNStory/specialROBmagazine/home).

You cannot sustain an NHL franchise with "$39 for two tickets, two hot dogs, two beers and a parking spot". You cant even take a piss at the Calgary Saddledome for 39$.

All you need to know is in the article. If the organization is making money on all of the events at the arena, the Lightning are merely 41 days in a calendar year.

An excerpt from the article linked above:

The Lightning don't discuss their financial details-Koules and Barrie, who's also president, declined interview requests. But Koules alluded to the team's finances recently on ESPN.com. "Are we making money? No. But are we bleeding like most people think we are? Of course not," Koules said. "It's hard, because the only thing you get from the fans is, 'You're an idiot.'"

Yes, they are making $ on additional events, but end of year - they are still in the red. With player salaries now directly tied to league revenues, the appetite to carry teams that do not make a profit, or generate big TV audiences will be tested. According to some written articles, the NHLPA knew of the Phoenix bankruptcy/Balsillie issue over a week ago (http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/629703). The fact that this totally blindsided Bettman is telling indeed. Today the NHL is a business more than it ever was. It does not make sense to continue the Phoenix life support. We could be witnessing the end of the Bettman era...

[Chadd 916]

I hope a southern Ontario team happens for the league...it just makes the most sense.

Not really, we need some more teams out West so Columbus and Detroit can go into the East where they belong.

I say Las Vegas and Portland or Seattle or Kansas City.

KC and Seattle don't have basketball teams to compete for fans in the winter months, Portland also has an arena that could serve as their home right away. Vegas would only work from a conference alignment perspective as they really couldn't handle a team next year.

I don't believe there is any suitable arena in southern Ontario for a team to play, though I could be wrong.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

Additionally, would the league accept a lesser offer to move the team to a place like Kansas City, Houston, or Vegas?

They will not have that option this time. This matter is before the bankruptcy court. the judge has a fiduciary duty to protect the interests of creditors...that means accepting the highest bid.

So if issue is out of the NHL's hands regarding the bankruptcy proceeding and Balsillies' offer is hypothetically accepted by the courts, can the League then block relocation?

I know the bid is contingent on the relocation, but I am confused as to the binding nature of the court proceedings vs. NHL's right to control the location and ownership of its teams.

This is what bettman has said publicly but everyone in Canada knows that the hammer resides with Judges in the Courts of Canada and the US, which has a free trade agreement and laws against blocking open trade etc.

The reason they want to block the relocation to S. Ontario is because of the close proximity to the Laffs and Sabres. But if Balsillie challenges the NHL's geographical territorial rights rules in the courts of law as anti-trust and collusion he will win in the courts, everyone knows this and this is why Bettman shooed him away last time. Because once precendence is set they can no longer take a "protectionist" stance on the Franchises in certain markets that bleed money.

TB Lightning is a bad example, they are probably the most Viable franchise of the teams that "lose money" They own their bulding and all of the spinoff revenue that generates makes money...

I would allow the move of Phoenix to Southern Ontario, either in the Kitchener Waterloo area, or just North of the Airport in in GTA, or to Hamilton. And leave that team in the Western Conference as the Geographical Lines have that city (Kitchener) right in between Detroit (In the Western Conf) and To/Buffalo (In the Eastern Conf), Columbus is directly below Detroit on the map (W.C.), in fact Atlanta is actullyt further west on the Map than either Detroit or Columbus...

My Future NHL would see:

atlanta = seattle

florida panthers = kansas city

2 new teams in the western conference, moving detroit and the new Southern Ontario team to the Eastern Conference, then moving the NY Islanders to either Quebec City or into New England to fill the void left by Hartford.

You have to get the game out of the sunbelt (for the most part) and non hockey markets(for the most part) and get the game back into the regions that are (for the most part) functioning hockey markets like the Midwest, Northeast, Pacific Northwest, and Canada. This is a gate driven league (for the most part) and major revenues are driven through regional TV deals with individual team, the Canadian 2 National TV Deals, and PPV Broadcast Packages in certain markets.

Like a previous poster said: There are many NHL owners in profitable cities and operations that are sick of writing welfare checks to Bettman's failed vision of Teams in non hockey markets with a vision of a big-fat-hairy-Major american Network TV Deal.

[Jordan 13]

TB Lightning is a bad example, they are probably the most Viable franchise of the teams that "lose money" They own their bulding and all of the spinoff revenue that generates makes money...

Owning your building is a very different beast than leasing it like Pheonix. Doug Maclean, who tried to buy the team has talked extensively about the differences between the viability of Tampa and Pheonix on his radio show here in Toronto.

Chadd, It is not at all clear in any way that the NHL can stop Balsillie from moving the team. Usually in bankruptcy proceedings assets are re-organized (meaning debt swapped for equity) and the new owner of the assets can do whatever they want with them. The NHL is not special.

The NHL bylaws are a set of agreements between owners that work on the honour system. It is unlikely that a court will care one iota about those bylaws. Some say that the NHL could revoke the franchise, but, they would be challenged in court and that would take years (and the new owners would likely be granted an injuction allowing them to operate pending the outcome of the trial) . You can be certain that Balsillie has had all of this thoroughly investigated.

Most importantly, the little general (Bettman) doesn't like anyone undoing or exposing his failed sunbelt expansion dreams. The other owners (who he works for) will make more money if the moves than if the team stays...$$$$ will rule the roost here, not Bettman.

I believe this will ultimately cost him his job.

[JohnnyCanuck 0]

I think the "Boots" Del Biaggio proceedings have cost him his job, ultimately this will expedite the door hitting him on the ass on his way out.

John Davidson as New NHL Commissioner! However the Blues, who have come soooooo far under his watch would need to find someone to replace him, because it is awesome to see hockey back in Saint Lou.

[Larry54 243]

I don't believe there is any suitable arena in southern Ontario for a team to play, though I could be wrong.

I thought I heard someone on CBC Newsworld say that Balsillie would pay for a new building, and that it would be named for Walter Gretzky.

[Chadd 916]

TB Lightning is a bad example, they are probably the most Viable franchise of the teams that "lose money" They own their bulding and all of the spinoff revenue that generates makes money...

Owning your building is a very different beast than leasing it like Pheonix. Doug Maclean, who tried to buy the team has talked extensively about the differences between the viability of Tampa and Pheonix on his radio show here in Toronto.

Chadd, It is not at all clear in any way that the NHL can stop Balsillie from moving the team. Usually in bankruptcy proceedings assets are re-organized (meaning debt swapped for equity) and the new owner of the assets can do whatever they want with them. The NHL is not special.

The NHL bylaws are a set of agreements between owners that work on the honour system. It is unlikely that a court will care one iota about those bylaws. Some say that the NHL could revoke the franchise, but, they would be challenged in court and that would take years (and the new owners would likely be granted an injuction allowing them to operate pending the outcome of the trial) . You can be certain that Balsillie has had all of this thoroughly investigated.

Most importantly, the little general (Bettman) doesn't like anyone undoing or exposing his failed sunbelt expansion dreams. The other owners (who he works for) will make more money if the moves than if the team stays...$$ will rule the roost here, not Bettman.

I believe this will ultimately cost him his job.

The bankruptcy court can not require the NHL to accede to Balsillie's relocation demands. Any question of the NHL's right to refuse a move to southern Ontario is not one for a bankruptcy court and would likely take years to resolve. In the meantime the transaction would not be permitted to proceed.

Bettman is empowered by the board of governors and they do not want Balsillie as an owner. If he's unwilling to abide by the existing ownership process, there is no reason to expect that he will follow the rules once he is an owner. You also have the problem with moving a franchise into southern ontario killing an existing franchise like Buffalo. The other owners don't want someone having the right to move a franchise into their backyard.

As for the sunbelt franchises being the downfall of Bettman, Winnipeg and Quebec would likely have been in bankruptcy themselves when the canadian dollar was down to 65 cents on the dollar, much like Ottawa was a couple years ago. If those teams are able to have some success and move deep into the playoffs, the fans will be there. A few short years ago Chicago was drawing less than 10k per game on a regular basis, good thing people didn't panic and move them at the time.

All of that said any team that doesn't own their building is going to have financial issues moving forward. The model that Tampa follows, where they make money off of non-hockey events and outside revenues on game nights, is going to be the model for most franchises in the near future.

I don't believe there is any suitable arena in southern Ontario for a team to play, though I could be wrong.

I thought I heard someone on CBC Newsworld say that Balsillie would pay for a new building, and that it would be named for Walter Gretzky.

That building would not be done in time for the start of the 2009 season, where do they play next year?

[RadioGaGa 162]

I don't believe there is any suitable arena in southern Ontario for a team to play, though I could be wrong.

I thought I heard someone on CBC Newsworld say that Balsillie would pay for a new building, and that it would be named for Walter Gretzky.

That building would not be done in time for the start of the 2009 season, where do they play next year?

According to local reports....$20M could get Copps up to snuff by Oct for them to play here...but I'll believe it when I see it.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

Split the Air Canada Centre for a year. The Giants and Jets do it. If i were in toronto, why wouldnt i want double the hockey for a season?