TRUE TF9/TF7 skates

[flip12 712]

2 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Probably the last follow up on this for a while.  The details that got us to this point are in previous posts above.  In general though, decent 15 yr old moving from Makos to TF9s.  The last post was referencing fixes we made to the stock profile to address his complaints after the first couple skates.  After that last post we made another change to the profile and points are listed below. 

1. Additional (-1) pitch.  After the 2nd profile above, he still felt the pitch was too aggressive, so, we took it back another notch.  This made it 10ft (- 2) pitch.  After measuring it compared to his makos, it still appeared to be effectively 1/4" higher back to front compared to Makos that were -2 from stock. 

After this, he felt it was better, but still felt like it was "pushing him forward too much".  We gave it a week to see how he adapted (skating everyday) and if no improvement would profile and take it back another (-2) to a (-4) total. This seemed very extreme to me, but given the previous changes and the existing difference between the  old makos, I thought this is how we would get to where we needed to be. 

After 7 skates on the second profile, comments continued to be... 1) much faster in straight line open ice skating than the Makos 2) he uses a lot less energy to go faster.  Consistently less tired than norma. 3) tight turns better than the Makos but.... 4) agility and footwork bad.  Skates felt "heavy", "like tanks", "clumsy".   So, 1)-3) are big positives, but 4) is a killer.

One observation that he was getting a bit of a hot spot where the top of the cuff was rubbing above his ankle made me think of something else.  He commented that the TF9s were higher than the Makos.  He laced his Makos one eyelet from top, and had the TF9s one eyelet from the top.  So, the last skate before we got them profiled, I asked him to drop the lacing to the 2nd eyelet down.  That would make it closer to the actual Mako lacing pattern since the TF9s came up higher.  My thought was, it was more the lack of fore-aft flexibility was the issue.  He came off the ice and we were going to take them to my skate guy to get the profiled, he said, "don't bother, they're perfect"......  LOL.....  So, one day away from going to a (-4) profile and how knows where that would have sent us. 

Interestingly, as I say, the (-2) is still more aggressive than the Makos we had at (-2).  This is a bit surprising, since I assumed they would have a similar ptich.  This is a demonstration of a couple of things 1) how important ankle flexibility and range of motion is in the anterior/posterior plane for all aspects of skating, including footwork and agility and 2) how such a minor thing like 1 eyelet lacing pattern can make an enormous difference.  Not that this would be the case with everybody, but there are so many friggin variables when dialing in skates .... its' crazy. 

I'm still a bit surprised about the speed difference between the Makos and TF9s.  I'm going to attribute it to the Makos being on their last leg.  He always has rivet issues with them and I think the bottom outsole is just "worn out".  There' s a lot of give around the holder and outsole and that creates loss of power transfer.  Free speed though.... we'll take it!

We're going to do some testing fo the lacing patterns now to quantify the differences as far as top end speed and agility since it will be a very easy change to make and he "perceives" a huge difference.  I'm curious to how much of a difference it makes quantitatively. 

That's it for now.  Hope this helps others trying to nail these skates down.  No doubt they are comfy.  But that stock pitch is pretty aggressive for somebody who's got an ingrained skating pattern .

How much higher are the TF9s compared to his Makos?

A softer tongue could help with the clunkiness/range of motion. The True tongues are decently stiff and with stiff boots that combo can kill a skate’s feel, especially for skaters that embrace range of motion in their stride.

Edited January 22, 2021 by flip12

[smcgreg 81]

8 minutes ago, flip12 said:

How much higher are the TF9s compared to his Makos?

Well, that's  a really good question.  Based on this, I measured and..... they appear to be the same.  I took his word for it about the height, but it looks like the height of the cuff from the base of the outsole is the same on both skates.  Then, I measured the eyelets and with it down to the second hole on the TF9s, it appears to be lower by about a half an inch.

*caveat:  This is measuring with a tape measure assuming the bottom of the outsole on both skates represents where the bottom of his foot is.  Still, it doesn't look like there can be much difference in height of the cuff and he probably is lacing them lower than he was on the Makos. 

He commented on how much stiffer the boot is on the TF than the Makos, so, maybe it's not the height of the cuff, but just the sfiffness of the cuff? 

So, now the question is,.... would the additional (-2) profile have fixed the issue and the new lacing pattern is just allowing him to adapt to the aggressive pitch? 

One more relevant point here is, last year he laced the Makos an eyelet lower.  He was a freshman on the varsity team the coach told him to lace them one eyelet higher because it would make him faster to keep up with the older kids.  So, with the new lacing on the TFs, he's back to where he was on the Makos one year ago, which is really friggin low.. if you've ever worn Makos, but faster in the TFs for whatever reason.

Anyway, .....  I guess there is no difference in cuff height between the skates, just stiffness, but lower lacing helps, for whatever reason. 

Friggin skating........

 

 

 

[flip12 712]

Do you have video of your son skating? He sounds a bit like me: I really struggled getting MLX to work for me. Right away I could tell they had extra power and better cornering than I had ever experienced (even more notably on FBV) but I couldn’t get over this disconnected feeling, especially on starts.

What ended up working best with the stock tongue was skipping the top two eyelets. Considering they’re already along the lowest cut boots on the market, I was astonished that I was able to feel stable skating like that in them.

I kept experimenting, rebaking, swapping tongues. I like them better with softer tongues, as I get better coupling between my feet and the skates. With the softest and slimmest tongue I have, and rebaked with the top three eyelets flared out, I can skate pretty comfortably on them with one the top eyelet unlaced; still get changing from the cuff like that.

[Vet88 674]

11 hours ago, smcgreg said:

how important ankle flexibility and range of motion is in the anterior/posterior plane for all aspects of skating, including footwork and agility

YES!!!! and people wonder why I preach about laces untied / lace free skating.

[smcgreg 81]

18 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

YES!!!! and people wonder why I preach about laces untied / lace free skating.

Watching him today at practice was awesome.  Finally agile on his skates again and able to do what he used to do.  On top of it, good speed that carries over with the new boots... for whatever reason.

Of course, I agree with you, as I use 55Flex, or actually a leather knock off since they're out of business.  From a performance standpoint, there is a tradeoff though.  Too much flexibility and you lose power and explosiveness.  Too little and it compromises control and agility,...at least for him and me.  Finding that "sweet spot" is the trick.   He certainly can take advantage of the flexibility though, as he has TF9s down two eyelets.  That's crazy low lacing.

Edited January 23, 2021 by smcgreg

[Vet88 674]

2 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Too much flexibility and you lose power and explosiveness.  

Yes, you do as you are learning to skate this way. But the loss is caused by your foot mechanics, you are trying to skate as you walk (laced up locks the heel and even though the foot tries to lift thru the heel it can't). Untied, your heel lifts as it naturally wants to do but as you keep practising your stride mechanics optimise to a flat push with no heel lift and your speed and explosiveness returns. This is the hardest and last element to learn because of how BIG a change it is, it doesn't matter how long you have been skating you have to go thru this change because of how intrinsic it is to how you walk. In his later years, Darryl Evans played his NHL games with just the bottom 5 eyelets laced up. I only lace the bottom 4 and my lap, sprint and beep test times now are better than when I laced up, which is saying something as I'm now at the age where every year I just get slower....

[smcgreg 81]

32 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Yes, you do as you are learning to skate this way. But the loss is caused by your foot mechanics, you are trying to skate as you walk (laced up locks the heel and even though the foot tries to lift thru the heel it can't). Untied, your heel lifts as it naturally wants to do but as you keep practising your stride mechanics optimise to a flat push with no heel lift and your speed and explosiveness returns. This is the hardest and last element to learn because of how BIG a change it is, it doesn't matter how long you have been skating you have to go thru this change because of how intrinsic it is to how you walk. In his later years, Darryl Evans played his NHL games with just the bottom 5 eyelets laced up. I only lace the bottom 4 and my lap, sprint and beep test times now are better than when I laced up, which is saying something as I'm now at the age where every year I just get slower....

Hmm... I'll be honest, I don't know exactly what you're saying.  That being said, I'm not sure how you can dispute that a foot that is elevated several inches off the ground, balanced on a knife edge is not going to generate more power with a "tighter", stiffer system.  I suppose top end speed and even beep test times (a test of cardio vascular fitness) could be better, but raw acceleration/power, it's hard for me to envision. 

I think I've read your assertions about the importance of ankle strength and exercises to develop such, which would likely help, but in the end, stiffer boots and tighter connections should result in greater power transfer and everything else is an exercise to mitigate the compromise. In my son's case, he's a better, more agile player who is practically faster (I assume) in most facets with a lower lacing pattern, but has higher top end and raw acceleration laced higher. In the end, the agility and greater control with lower lacing makes him a better overall hockey player even given a bit of a compromise on speed. 

[Vet88 674]

1 hour ago, smcgreg said:

stiffer boots and tighter connections should result in greater power transfer and everything else is an exercise to mitigate the compromise.

This is true if you have any technical issues with the way you skate, the boot hides the flaws in the foot and ankle movements. If your technique is good enough and you have learnt to skate laces untied then the stiffness of the boot does not matter.

Let me put it this way, accelerating / exploding when skating unlaced is like learning to balance on your forefoot whilst standing on top of a nail whilst you attempt to drive full power downwards and transfer your body weight over the top of the nail. Your forefoot has to learn how to balance on the point of the blade AND control the deflection of the blade as you drive power downwards and forwards whilst remaining stable in the boot. This is why it takes so long to learn this, it's something the body has never done before, the closest I can think off is someone who is learning classical ballet and can do a full pointe. You come up on the forefoot, lose your balance and ergo can't apply any power. Your son struggles with this simply because he hasn't trained enough and learnt to do it. And I understand why skaters choose not to do this, it can be a huge hit on development time and performance and its just easier to lace up and not focus on this final piece of the puzzle.

[smcgreg 81]

11 hours ago, Vet88 said:

This is true if you have any technical issues with the way you skate, the boot hides the flaws in the foot and ankle movements. If your technique is good enough and you have learnt to skate laces untied then the stiffness of the boot does not matter.

Let me put it this way, accelerating / exploding when skating unlaced is like learning to balance on your forefoot whilst standing on top of a nail whilst you attempt to drive full power downwards and transfer your body weight over the top of the nail. Your forefoot has to learn how to balance on the point of the blade AND control the deflection of the blade as you drive power downwards and forwards whilst remaining stable in the boot. This is why it takes so long to learn this, it's something the body has never done before, the closest I can think off is someone who is learning classical ballet and can do a full pointe. You come up on the forefoot, lose your balance and ergo can't apply any power. Your son struggles with this simply because he hasn't trained enough and learnt to do it. And I understand why skaters choose not to do this, it can be a huge hit on development time and performance and its just easier to lace up and not focus on this final piece of the puzzle.

OK, I see where you're coming from, but in contrast to the ballerina, there are several inches of holder and steel beneath the foot and knife edge interaction with the surface.  There is just no way that under many circumstances, the ankle joint is not going to be a "weak link" in that power transfer system.  To your point, there will be some situations where that "weak link" can be mitigated to some extent, but in the end, there will be many angles of attack between the blade and the ice where power transfer will be somewhat compromised.  That's just physics/biomechanics. 

Don't get me wrong, again, I think agility and maneuverability trump raw speed or explosiveness in terms of being a better hockey player, but power transfer is going to be compromised under some circumstances, there's no way around it. 

That being said, I agree that way too many skaters just go with the stiffest boot and lace up tight to cover up skating deficiencies.  I think we agree for the most part, we're just splitting some hairs on details. 

[BenBreeg 493]

 I think of it this way, if you are driving straight down through the footbed, transferring force directly through the blade with no torque, stiffness of the sidewalls does’t come into play.

[smcgreg 81]

29 minutes ago, BenBreeg said:

 I think of it this way, if you are driving straight down through the footbed, transferring force directly through the blade with no torque, stiffness of the sidewalls does’t come into play.

Of course, but there are many instances where that is not going to be the case or even possible. 

Look at it this way, there are some very explosive fast skaters that have absolutely atrocious skating mechanics. Why?  because 1) they simply produce a lot of power and 2) they have a "tight" system that allows that power to be transferred.  On the other hand, you can have players with very good mechanics who are simply not explosive, why? because 1) they simply don't produce a lot of power.... well, that's it.  Can, the latter case overcome the former, sometimes, there are a lot of variables at play in the game of hockey.  Ideally, you want to produce lots of power AND have good mechanics. 

Anyway, I get both of your points now and agree for the most part, but also will point out, it's simply not possible to have a perfect angle of attack and therefore zero power loss under all circumstances no matter how good your mechanics are and how  much you practice.  Again, not arguing ankle flexibilty isn't important or that lacing low is good if you can do it,... but.... you will compromise power transfer in some contexts, you just will.

 

[BenBreeg 493]

Agreed

[hockeydad3 51]

Otherwise we would all skate on flipflops with holders/runners installed.

[Vet88 674]

Whilst I would love to try sandals with a holder on them (and I have been seriously considering trying this), I will readily admit the support the boot provides around the bottom of the foot is critical to good skating. IMHO it is the advances in boot technology that makes untied skating so different to anything that has come before.

We could debate for ever the cons and pros of untied skating and the rabbit hole of bio mechanics and force loadings. Until a skilled untied / tied skater can get a skate on a fancy force-measuring treadmill (which cost a few 100k $'s and then you have to convert it for ice skating) and then model the data along the lines of the work done by people like Daniel Lieberman, we will never know the answer. Putting aside my unqualified comments and everything that I have seen working with skaters, I still go back to Darryl Evans, there is just no way he would have kept his place with the Flyers if his power, acceleration and explosiveness was compromised as he got to 5 eyelets only lacing.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Vet88

[flip12 712]

I came across this just now while I was browsing Scott Van Horne's patents, and it articulates my thoughts better than I would have:

"The sport of in-line and ice speed skating, hockey, figure skating, cross-country skiing, and the like are all very competitive sports, at the elite level. For optimal performance these sports demand comfort and stability. A lack of comfort can result in decreased training time. A lack of stability can result in: a loss of power through excessive joint bending and increased fatigue through excessive lower leg muscle stimulation, these factors will cause a decrease in performance."

From: High performance custom moldable footwear

I like the idea of laces free skating for training but I am skeptical about its broad applicability for competition.

[smcgreg 81]

13 hours ago, Vet88 said:

Whilst I would love to try sandals with a holder on them (and I have been seriously considering trying this), I will readily admit the support the boot provides around the bottom of the foot is critical to good skating. IMHO it is the advances in boot technology that makes untied skating so different to anything that has come before.

We could debate for ever the cons and pros of untied skating and the rabbit hole of bio mechanics and force loadings. Until a skilled untied / tied skater can get a skate on a fancy force-measuring treadmill (which cost a few 100k $'s and then you have to convert it for ice skating) and then model the data along the lines of the work done by people like Daniel Lieberman, we will never know the answer. Putting aside my unqualified comments and everything that I have seen working with skaters, I still go back to Darryl Evans, there is just no way he would have kept his place with the Flyers if his power, acceleration and explosiveness was compromised as he got to 5 eyelets only lacing.

I'll leave the Lieberman reference alone.... 😉  That's a huge can of worms.  Regardless, I really don't think instrumented treadmills are necessary to get to the answer and in fact, would be more challenging to get a satisfactory answer than some simpler alternatives.  As I say, I know quite a lot of elite players and can deduct broad principles from that data I have.  Alternatively, some simple, well conducted on-ice testing could get to the answer as well.  As I alluded to earlier in the thread, we were going to do some of it with my son after making the changes, but he's absolutely convinced in the set up he wants now and any amount of testing I do won't make a bit of difference.  That's another thing about hockey, the mental piece is huge and if you make a change that the athlete perceives reduces performance, it will affect confidence to the point that it will likely reduce performance regardless.  A self-fulfilling prophecy or a negative placebo effect if you will. 

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.  We've gotten far enough off of the topic, we probably should leave it at this point.

[smcgreg 81]

4 hours ago, flip12 said:

I came across this just now while I was browsing Scott Van Horne's patents, and it articulates my thoughts better than I would have:

"The sport of in-line and ice speed skating, hockey, figure skating, cross-country skiing, and the like are all very competitive sports, at the elite level. For optimal performance these sports demand comfort and stability. A lack of comfort can result in decreased training time. A lack of stability can result in: a loss of power through excessive joint bending and increased fatigue through excessive lower leg muscle stimulation, these factors will cause a decrease in performance."

From: High performance custom moldable footwear

I like the idea of laces free skating for training but I am skeptical about its broad applicability for competition.

This is actually relevant to the points I made with the TF9 comparison I made earlier.  One of the most striking comments/observations my son made was, the second time he wore them (1st profile after the initial skate) was in an evaluation camp where he wore the TF9s for two back to back games.  This was  a risk, but his Makos were hurting his feet so bad we didn't think he could make it through two full games, so, wanted one game to adapt before leaving the final impression in the second game.  He had played a game the day before and could barely skate at the end his feet were hurting so bad.  As I noted in my comments up the thread, he looked observably faster to me.  I could tell he was unsure in them and playing conservative so as not to trip over himself, but still, by the second game was rushing full ice and jumping in the O zone. 

Anyway, when he came out to the car, aside from the speed comment, he said he felt less tired after two games in the TF9s than one game in the Makos.

Again, not sure where the energy losses were coming from, but there certainly were energy losses.  The Mako is a pretty darn soft boot. 

[althoma1 574]

13 hours ago, smcgreg said:

Anyway, when he came out to the car, aside from the speed comment, he said he felt less tired after two games in the TF9s than one game in the Makos.

Again, not sure where the energy losses were coming from, but there certainly were energy losses.  The Mako is a pretty darn soft boot. 

Was he in the original Mako or the Mako II? Both are softer than the Trues I have felt, but having owned the original Mako, Mako II and the M7, I'd say the originals are definitely the softest and break down the fastest. I definitely noticed an increase in energy transfer when I switched from the original Makos to the Mako II's for ice and converted original Makos to M7's in roller (even the $400 M7s were stiffer than the original Makos and have held up better).

[smcgreg 81]

1 hour ago, althoma1 said:

Was he in the original Mako or the Mako II? Both are softer than the Trues I have felt, but having owned the original Mako, Mako II and the M7, I'd say the originals are definitely the softest and break down the fastest. I definitely noticed an increase in energy transfer when I switched from the original Makos to the Mako II's for ice and converted original Makos to M7's in roller (even the $400 M7s were stiffer than the original Makos and have held up better).

OGs?  Heck, haven't seen those for years.  I think his last pair were Mako IIs.  He's had M7 and M8s as has my daughter.  His last pair was actually a pair I had in reserve for myself, which he got, because TFs were not available yet and he needed new skates pronto.  I believe they are MIIs.

The current ones I'm using are on their last leg, so, given the path we've gone down with him, I'm thinking I might give the TF7s a try for myself.  My modifications are much more substantial than his though, so, I'm not enthused about starting from scratch.  It's the journey that makes it interesting though, right?  ... 😉 

[Westside 232]

Any Vapor guys gotten into a TF9? I was offered a pair at too good a price to pass up and have been wanting to give them a try anyway. I’ll likely convert them into inline skates, but wanted to see if anyone that previously used Vapors had tried the Trues. 

[Miller55 333]

I'd be concerned about the width honestly. Vapors are way too shallow for me, but in width I'm at least an EE if not wider and from trying the TFs I didn't feel like I needed a W, so the R are definitely. If you're a Vapor D these might be very wide in the forefoot but ymmv. Not sure if a bake with the wrap will let them fit tighter. 

[VegasHockey 1280]

1 hour ago, Westside said:

Any Vapor guys gotten into a TF9? I was offered a pair at too good a price to pass up and have been wanting to give them a try anyway. I’ll likely convert them into inline skates, but wanted to see if anyone that previously used Vapors had tried the Trues. 

The forefoot might be a little wide for you in you wear any Vapor skates before the 2X Pro D width, the 2X Pro D was a little wider than the previous 1x models and such.

What is the widest measurement of your forefoot? 

[Westside 232]

1 hour ago, Miller55 said:

I'd be concerned about the width honestly. Vapors are way too shallow for me, but in width I'm at least an EE if not wider and from trying the TFs I didn't feel like I needed a W, so the R are definitely. If you're a Vapor D these might be very wide in the forefoot but ymmv. Not sure if a bake with the wrap will let them fit tighter. 

I’m definitely on the border with shallowness of vapors and honestly should be in a supreme boot, but I’ve worn multiple vapor models for over a decade so I’m used to them at this point. 

1 hour ago, PBH said:

The forefoot might be a little wide for you in you wear any Vapor skates before the 2X Pro D width, the 2X Pro D was a little wider than the previous 1x models and such.

What is the widest measurement of your forefoot? 

Yeah, my current skates are from the 2017 vapor range so pre-2x, but it sounds like that would be a good thing? Damn, I just had my feet on a brannock scale today but don’t recall the width measurement 

[Miller55 333]

1 hour ago, Westside said:

I’m definitely on the border with shallowness of vapors and honestly should be in a supreme boot, but I’ve worn multiple vapor models for over a decade so I’m used to them at this point. 

I hear that. I'm the same but really should be in the Nexus and wear Supreme instead. I did well with the Nexus 1000 but when I tried the 1N I felt like the new eyelet locks prevented that great wrap that the deeper boot gave me, so I went Supreme.

I'm lucky I don't get any lace bite for some reason, because the pencil test is not even close for me, I fail with flying colors. 

In this case though, you might be able to make the TFs work, you should be ok on depth, but the width in the forefoot might feel sloppy. Are you able to try them on? 

[Westside 232]

No, which is obviously concerning for a skate I’ve never worn before, but based on what they’re going for on the secondhand market I would be able to get my money back without much trouble. I appreciate the insight about forefoot width. Gives me something to think about.
 

Would it even be worth trying on a pair at a store? Seems as though the consensus is that you *have* to bake them before you know if they fit, but if thermoformability is mostly around the ankle, would I be able to properly judge forefoot width straight outta the box?