Sher-Wood .....Again

[boo10 323]

2 hours ago, colins said:

That can change over time with the right team making the product decisions.

If you're Canadian Tire, SportChek & ProHockeyLife, and your in house brand can provide you with product to compete up and down the lineup vs. the inventory you buy from CCM/Bauer/etc, it's a huge advantage. They'll having staying power and supply chain advantages, at least for like 3/4s of the Canadian market, that should keep them afloat and relevant for years.

I don't think they should be thought of as a small player these days - they have a huge financial backing and competitive advantage by being the house brand for CTC corp now. They just need to hire the right team.

Yep, CTC also owns National Sports.  If I were to take a wild guess, I would bet that those four retailers sell in excess of 70% of all hockey gear in Canada.  The Source for Sports, PIA, Hockey Supremacy, and smaller shops would make up the rest.  I'm pulling those numbers out of my ass, but I would wager that I'm not far off.

[stick9 892]

2 hours ago, colins said:

That can change over time with the right team making the product decisions.

If you're Canadian Tire, SportChek & ProHockeyLife, and your in house brand can provide you with product to compete up and down the lineup vs. the inventory you buy from CCM/Bauer/etc, it's a huge advantage. They'll having staying power and supply chain advantages, at least for like 3/4s of the Canadian market, that should keep them afloat and relevant for years.

I don't think they should be thought of as a small player these days - they have a huge financial backing and competitive advantage by being the house brand for CTC corp now. They just need to hire the right team.

I think you summed it up, they're a house brand. If you want to survive, you need real products that can stand up to the competition. Ask yourself, why am I buying a Sher-Wood....what differentiates it from the other brands? There has to be something more than cost or availability. If that's all you are, a cheaper alternative, you're time will be short lived.

I hope I am wrong. 

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

What else can they offer though. If you look at the top equipment companies, aren't much more alike than they are different? We have preferences but other than lowering the price(s), I don't know SW can do to differentiate themselves from the likes of Bauer, CCM, True, etc.

[CaptainCharisma 25]

Sher-wood was the first brand to have a sub-400 g stick in the Rekker EK15 but unfortunately it doesn't seem like they've made too much innovations since then.

How well received was the Rekker EK15 when it came out?  I bought the wood graphic version on clearance a few years afterwards.  Great look but par for the course in terms of performance.    

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by CaptainCharisma

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

4 hours ago, CaptainCharisma said:

Sher-wood was the first brand to have a sub-400 g stick in the Rekker EK15 but unfortunately it doesn't seem like they've made too much innovations since then.

How well received was the Rekker EK15 when it came out?  I bought the wood graphic version on clearance a few years afterwards.  Great look but par for the course in terms of performance.    

 

It didn’t do well at retail. 

On 8/24/2020 at 2:35 PM, stick9 said:

Man, one of these smaller companies needs to get their crap together and start making gear exclusively adults playing beer league. No one under 35 gives two craps about Sher-Wood.

When it comes to sticks it's about value and durability. Make a decent performing stick that hold up reasonably well and sell it for $149. Hell, I'd buy one just to try it.

In other words, do something different. I don't understand why they don't get it.

Ain’t no money in it. Your average beer leaguer isn’t buying the latest and greatest and are almost always buying strictly on price. 
 

That all being said, are you going to buy a $149 stick at $149 or are you buying a closed out $279 stick (or pro return) at $149?  And it’s not going to get any better with the glut of inventory out there right now due to COVID.  That’s gonna hurt retailers for a long time.

 

On 8/24/2020 at 7:00 PM, colins said:

 

I think you could be missing something here.

Surely her-wood has to be one of the largest hockey equipment manufacturer in the market right now? Like any reboot I'm sure they'll have some missteps, but I wouldn't count them out by any means.

While Bauer continues to raise prices on their high end gear while cutting corners on materials/quality, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sherwood brand become a legit player that if nothing else, should help keep CCM and Bauer honest.

I wonder how many US-based dealers they’re landed. Not a knock, just curious. 

I would be extremely surprised. This isn’t the first time they’ve had a house brand and every time it hasn’t worked out.  I just don’t see it. 

[colins 246]

19 minutes ago, JR Boucicaut said:

It didn’t do well at retail. 

Ain’t no money in it. Your average beer leaguer isn’t buying the latest and greatest and are almost always buying strictly on price. 
 

That all being said, are you going to buy a $149 stick at $149 or are you buying a closed out $279 stick (or pro return) at $149?  And it’s not going to get any better with the glut of inventory out there right now due to COVID.  That’s gonna hurt retailers for a long time.

 

I wonder how many US-based dealers they’re landed. Not a knock, just curious. 

I would be extremely surprised. This isn’t the first time they’ve had a house brand and every time it hasn’t worked out.  I just don’t see it. 

 

I think they're maybe wasting their time with the Code V stick given the ugly graphics and lack of reviews that say it performs like a top contender, but have a look at their marketing push behind it, top of the front page on prohockeylife.com right now, and drawing heavily on Sher-wood's Featherlite legacy. Video here: 

https://www.prohockeylife.com/pages/sherwood-code-v-hockey-sticks

I think they're still off the mark with the Code V but if they keep this up and the next revision is a top performing stick that looks great, they sign on a top player in the NHL as brand ambassador, there's little reason they can't become a lot more relevant over the next couple seasons given their deep pockets.

I personally would love to see it happen. Really haven't liked the moves by Bauer with their patents pushing 3rd party steel away from their Edge holders, or their latest top end glove and protective releases that seem to have jacked or kept prices at all time highs while reducing materials/features/quality.

I'll check back in two years from now and eat my words if they're gone or less relevant than they are now, but I'm hoping that's not the case!

 

[VegasHockey 1280]

5 minutes ago, colins said:

 

I think they're maybe wasting their time with the Code V stick given the ugly graphics and lack of reviews that say it performs like a top contender, but have a look at their marketing push behind it, top of the front page on prohockeylife.com right now, and drawing heavily on Sher-wood's Featherlite legacy. Video here: 

https://www.prohockeylife.com/pages/sherwood-code-v-hockey-sticks

I think they're still off the mark with the Code V but if they keep this up and the next revision is a top performing stick that looks great, they sign on a top player in the NHL as brand ambassador, there's little reason they can't become a lot more relevant over the next couple seasons given their deep pockets.

I personally would love to see it happen. Really haven't liked the moves by Bauer with their patents pushing 3rd party steel away from their Edge holders, or their latest top end glove and protective releases that seem to have jacked or kept prices at all time highs while reducing materials/features/quality.

I'll check back in two years from now and eat my words if they're gone or less relevant than they are now, but I'm hoping that's not the case!

 

You saying Bobby Ryan wasn't a great brand ambassador? 😛 

[IPv6Freely 2093]

If they just stuck to budget items as a house brand, I could see the niche for beer leaguers. Just like the crazy amount of Tron sticks and socks you see in San Diego. It’s local, and it’s cheap.

But it seems like they’re trying to compete which is just a waste of time. Not gonna happen.

[colins 246]

11 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:

You saying Bobby Ryan wasn't a great brand ambassador? 😛 

 

Hey I'm not going to take anything away from Bobby Ryan, incredible story and wish him all the best.

But in today's game they need a McDavid, MacKinnon, Barzal, Pettersson type - someone the young kids are out trying to imitate on the ice. But you're not getting one of those guys without deep pockets and a truly elite product. Much easier to get a top name if they product does actually outperform the competition. And get them in the hands of the kids coming up, the NCDC, NAHL, USHL, CHL and CJHL teams - sponsor more leagues/teams so the kids moving up into the pro ranks are coming from your product to begin with.

It takes time, money, and good execution but the roadmap is pretty simple when you think about it. They have the time and money given the deep pockets of the parent company. Let's see if they can execute.

[DarkStar50 679]

Colins,

I understand your marketing plan. It is the traditional path. There is nothing wrong with that. Just to play Devil's Advocate : what about Warrior ? I know they are 15 + years deep with NHL on ice product but how well has that exposure translated at retail? Just my experience in metro NYC market is that Warrior is still trying to make that NHL exposure work at retail but it just has never happened here. This is totally an observation in my market. How about other areas ? Has Warrior been a strong contender against Bauer/CCM in your market ? This is the road Sher-Wood is looking to get on. Dead End or Interstate highway to success ? Don't know, just want to hear other thoughts based on your market. Thanks. Seems like we are doing Sher-Wood's work for them !!

[the_game 452]

27 minutes ago, DarkStar50 said:

Colins,

I understand your marketing plan. It is the traditional path. There is nothing wrong with that. Just to play Devil's Advocate : what about Warrior ? I know they are 15 + years deep with NHL on ice product but how well has that exposure translated at retail? Just my experience in metro NYC market is that Warrior is still trying to make that NHL exposure work at retail but it just has never happened here. This is totally an observation in my market. How about other areas ? Has Warrior been a strong contender against Bauer/CCM in your market ? This is the road Sher-Wood is looking to get on. Dead End or Interstate highway to success ? Don't know, just want to hear other thoughts based on your market. Thanks. Seems like we are doing Sher-Wood's work for them !!

No one would listen to us @DarkStar50 we know too much, have too much experience, and make too much sense!

[Stewie 721]

Wishful thinking, i wish they would specialize in good beer league gear, but that isn’t going to keep you in business. You have to go after the youth market to win, and even there is a big gamble, in particular now. 

someone like me that has multiples of every piece of gear is a rarity for beer league players, and even I have slowed down/started to consolidare. Most guys buy shoulders like once every 10 years? There’s no market there. I see more duct taped pads in the locker room than I see new Super foam max 4000. 
 

becoming a house brand for a major retailer can keep you going, but it is no guarantee for success, in particular if they are raising prices.  
 

this relaunch unfortunately seems poorly timed, likely to no fault of their own. 

[mojo122 535]

1 hour ago, DarkStar50 said:

Colins,

I understand your marketing plan. It is the traditional path. There is nothing wrong with that. Just to play Devil's Advocate : what about Warrior ? I know they are 15 + years deep with NHL on ice product but how well has that exposure translated at retail? Just my experience in metro NYC market is that Warrior is still trying to make that NHL exposure work at retail but it just has never happened here. This is totally an observation in my market. How about other areas ? Has Warrior been a strong contender against Bauer/CCM in your market ? This is the road Sher-Wood is looking to get on. Dead End or Interstate highway to success ? Don't know, just want to hear other thoughts based on your market. Thanks. Seems like we are doing Sher-Wood's work for them !!

Pretty much nailed it here.  Market is pretty much the same here in the Northeast.  

[BenBreeg 493]

You can have the greatest marketing plan and execution in the world but for many (maybe most) products if you don't start with a solid value prop that is mapped to a market need it won't work in the long run.  You can have some short-term success but business cases are rarely built on that.  When I am working with marketing on messaging  and campaigns, they are asking me as a product manager what the market segment is, what problems are they facing, how does a product solve those problems, etc.  It always starts with the problem you are trying to solve.  I have literally been having multiple conversations with my team on a current product to answer the question, "Why does this product exist in the minds of the buyer?"  I don't see that being answered by SW right now.  The play to be a house brand might work like some have pointed out, but that is not what that marketing blog post made it sound like was their goal.

[Hills 712]

1 hour ago, BenBreeg said:

You can have the greatest marketing plan and execution in the world but for many (maybe most) products if you don't start with a solid value prop that is mapped to a market need it won't work in the long run.  You can have some short-term success but business cases are rarely built on that.  When I am working with marketing on messaging  and campaigns, they are asking me as a product manager what the market segment is, what problems are they facing, how does a product solve those problems, etc.  It always starts with the problem you are trying to solve.  I have literally been having multiple conversations with my team on a current product to answer the question, "Why does this product exist in the minds of the buyer?"  I don't see that being answered by SW right now.  The play to be a house brand might work like some have pointed out, but that is not what that marketing blog post made it sound like was their goal.

All of Sherwood's new gear minus the Code V stick have awesome value and performance/$. 

[colins 246]

2 hours ago, DarkStar50 said:

Colins,

I understand your marketing plan. It is the traditional path. There is nothing wrong with that. Just to play Devil's Advocate : what about Warrior ? I know they are 15 + years deep with NHL on ice product but how well has that exposure translated at retail? Just my experience in metro NYC market is that Warrior is still trying to make that NHL exposure work at retail but it just has never happened here. This is totally an observation in my market. How about other areas ? Has Warrior been a strong contender against Bauer/CCM in your market ? This is the road Sher-Wood is looking to get on. Dead End or Interstate highway to success ? Don't know, just want to hear other thoughts based on your market. Thanks. Seems like we are doing Sher-Wood's work for them !!

 

I think the difference between the two is the defacto retail footprint Sher-wood gets by being front and center in every Canadian Tire, SportChek and ProHockeylife.

I get it that this makes it 100% a Canadian specific play right now and it's not seen as any big deal south of the border, but the Canadian hockey equipment market is a great place to refine and mature your product line before branching out to a more global approach.

I maybe miss making the point that Canadian Tire, SportChek and ProHockeylife covers the vast majority of the retail hockey equipment space in Canada. In most towns or cities the only other store you will find selling hockey equipment is a Source For Sports franchise or a Play it again Sports. The split between CTC and non-CTC hockey equipment sales by dollars and volume in Canada must be something like 75%/25% like a previous poster mentioned. That's a wild ass guess, but based on my travels around Canada in hockey areas that's likely not far off the mark.

This isn't a couple of franchises in a few US cities selling Tron gear. This is coast to coast blanket coverage of the entire hockey equipment market in Canada. From Wikipedia, there's 503 Canadian Tire stores and 409 FGL branded sports stores in the country. So Sherwood gets defacto top tier access to close to 1000 retail locations without lifting a finger.

For casual players and the low end or beginner mom or dad will take you to Canadian Tire to get outfitted for hockey as there's one of these around every collection of even the smallest communities, and several in every city. Once you get serious and need higher end gear you head to a SportChek or if you're in a larger city you're lucky enough to have a ProHockeyLife which has an almost complete inventory of every hockey retail product available from Bauer/CCM/Warrior/True/etc.

Now... you're Sherwood... you don't have to convince these retailers to carry your product, or to display it prominently, you get that for free up and down your lineup because you have the same parent company. And this works for you coast to coast from a town of 500 people to a city of 3 million. Your distribution channels and marketing is covered.

To screw that up you'd literally have to hire the wrong people that don't know how to make a competitive product.

If you hire a few of the best talent away from Bauer/CCM/Warrior/etc you have a retail playground to start small(ish) and grow and expand your lineup. From a parent company with very deep pockets. And now you're taking profit away from Bauer and CCM and putting it into your own pockets. 

 

 

 

[BenBreeg 493]

38 minutes ago, colins said:

 

I think the difference between the two is the defacto retail footprint Sher-wood gets by being front and center in every Canadian Tire, SportChek and ProHockeylife.

I get it that this makes it 100% a Canadian specific play right now and it's not seen as any big deal south of the border, but the Canadian hockey equipment market is a great place to refine and mature your product line before branching out to a more global approach.

I maybe miss making the point that Canadian Tire, SportChek and ProHockeylife covers the vast majority of the retail hockey equipment space in Canada. In most towns or cities the only other store you will find selling hockey equipment is a Source For Sports franchise or a Play it again Sports. The split between CTC and non-CTC hockey equipment sales by dollars and volume in Canada must be something like 75%/25% like a previous poster mentioned. That's a wild ass guess, but based on my travels around Canada in hockey areas that's likely not far off the mark.

This isn't a couple of franchises in a few US cities selling Tron gear. This is coast to coast blanket coverage of the entire hockey equipment market in Canada. From Wikipedia, there's 503 Canadian Tire stores and 409 FGL branded sports stores in the country. So Sherwood gets defacto top tier access to close to 1000 retail locations without lifting a finger.

For casual players and the low end or beginner mom or dad will take you to Canadian Tire to get outfitted for hockey as there's one of these around every collection of even the smallest communities, and several in every city. Once you get serious and need higher end gear you head to a SportChek or if you're in a larger city you're lucky enough to have a ProHockeyLife which has an almost complete inventory of every hockey retail product available from Bauer/CCM/Warrior/True/etc.

Now... you're Sherwood... you don't have to convince these retailers to carry your product, or to display it prominently, you get that for free up and down your lineup because you have the same parent company. And this works for you coast to coast from a town of 500 people to a city of 3 million. Your distribution channels and marketing is covered.

To screw that up you'd literally have to hire the wrong people that don't know how to make a competitive product.

If you hire a few of the best talent away from Bauer/CCM/Warrior/etc you have a retail playground to start small(ish) and grow and expand your lineup. From a parent company with very deep pockets. And now you're taking profit away from Bauer and CCM and putting it into your own pockets. 

 

 

 

Makes sense.  I wanted to get the Playrite stick for my son but only IW has it, very low stock numbers so maybe they won't be pushing in the US for a while.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

59 minutes ago, colins said:

Now... you're Sherwood... you don't have to convince these retailers to carry your product, or to display it prominently, you get that for free up and down your lineup because you have the same parent company. And this works for you coast to coast from a town of 500 people to a city of 3 million. Your distribution channels and marketing is covered.

To screw that up you'd literally have to hire the wrong people that don't know how to make a competitive product.

If you hire a few of the best talent away from Bauer/CCM/Warrior/etc you have a retail playground to start small(ish) and grow and expand your lineup. From a parent company with very deep pockets. And now you're taking profit away from Bauer and CCM and putting it into your own pockets. 

A brand can have all of the floor space they want - for it to move, it has to be a good product.  You then have to convince the staff it's a good product, who would then have to convince the customer it's genuinely a good product. And in my experience, where I worked for a retailer that gave EVERY BRAND a chance (hell, they booked BROOKLYNITE, long live TH) that's where the disconnect happens.  

Note that most of your sales staff are young and really don't have a vested interest in the health of the business, let alone servicing the customer properly in some cases.  And their sales pitch is almost always going to be an evangelized one.  If the product can't win over the staff based on merit, the only way your staff would push that product is if they SPIFF the hell out of it - and customers will sense that a mile away.  Plus it doesn't help when customers walk in with the feeling that they are more informed than the staff is - and the way that I was able to combat that was to be able to answer all of their questions and concerns truthfully.  

 

[althoma1 575]

I dropped by a local Sport Chek yesterday that had some of the new Code V gear. (I was actually there because I wanted to see if they carried the True T9 or T7 skates; they did not).

They had the new Code V girdle/shell combo: https://www.sportchek.ca/categories/shop-by-sport/hockey/protective-equipment/hockey-pants/product/sherwood-code-v-pro-girdle-with-shell-senior-hockey-pants-333141853.html#333141853=333141853_01

I didn't try it on as I wasn't planning to buy one and wanted to minimize my contact with the product, but in store they just look like regular pants as they had the shell on. I did feel some of the padding and the front of the thigh felt protective (I used hand sanitizer before and after touching the product), but the side of the thigh didn't feel very protective. They had the Warrior QRE Edge girdle in the same store. This girdle doesn't include the shell and stands out for this reason - it just looks cooler. The same thigh side padding felt more protective on the Warrior girdle. Based on looks and feel alone (without trying either on) I would definitely lean toward the Warrior. The Sherwood was $199.99 with the shell and the Warrior was $159.99 without the shell.

I didn't see the elbows in store (although I did see them in Hills Youtube review of the Code V stick and they kind of remind me of my current and favourite pads of all time; the 2012 Warrior Projects), but based on the online US price and the information I've seen, these could be a good value.

I saw the shoulders. They looked light and mobile. I didn't look at the price.

The top end gloves look solid, but at $199.99 they were close in price to other top end options (and there are of course discontinued top end models from other brands for much less or pro return options). I think $200 on Sherwood gloves is a tough sell if they aren't way better than other options. The second from the top option, on sale, might have better traction. 

They didn't have any senior shins. They only had the junior shins and they looked nice. They were $80, if the senior versions aren't much more then they could be a good value.

So overall I think the elbows, shins and shoulders could do alright and be good value buys. I think the girdle/shell combo, top end gloves and stick are in tough at their price points. 

I do know that Canadian Tire sends out VIP codes a few times a year (primarily to their credit card holders, but also to other clubs and groups) that allows you to buy things at cost plus X percentage. The discount with those codes usually works out to 30% to 40% off for other brands (and sometimes exclude elite Bauer product ect.), but is steeper for house brands. Those who know that might seek out Sherwood products for this reason. During a sale last year it allowed me to pick up an M90 stick for $130 (regularly $270); so over 50% off. That only effects people with those codes who realize that the house brands get steeper discounts and want to maximize value though. 

I think the Canadian Tire Corporation tried pushing Hespeler and Winnwell as house brands with very little reach outside of thier stores. It does seem like they're making a bit more of a marketing push this time, but it's a tough battle. I think having more options is good for the consumer; so I do wish them well. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by althoma1

[IPv6Freely 2093]

I just not so sure a "me too" product line is helped by making it look absolutely atrocious. 

[Hills 712]

48 minutes ago, IPv6Freely said:

I just not so sure a "me too" product line is helped by making it look absolutely atrocious. 

From what I've seen so far the kids are buying into the hype...

[Stewie 721]

14 minutes ago, Hills said:

From what I've seen so far the kids are buying into the hype...

Kids like flash. It’s definitely where it’s marketed. Ek15 performed great but looked definitely like a beer league stick

[althoma1 575]

Yeah, gear nerds like us will watch and read reviews to see if a product actually performs well. Kids want what looks cool and they think will impress their friends.

Edited August 27, 2020 by althoma1

[shooter27 116]

On 8/26/2020 at 8:55 AM, colins said:

To screw that up you'd literally have to hire the wrong people that don't know how to make a competitive product

 

On 8/26/2020 at 11:08 AM, JR Boucicaut said:

A brand can have all of the floor space they want - for it to move, it has to be a good product.    

 

You said it yourself and JR reinforced it with his experience.  It all comes down to the product.  Distribution only goes so far without a product that provides a significant value proposition - either lower cost or comparable/better performance.  You can get someone to buy from a brand once with pure distribution, but that won’t make a successful brand.  

[Miller55 333]

I'd be down for Sherwood to release all their comp sticks with wood graphics packages. The ek15 was sick with the wood graphic