Why you shouldn't lace up tight.

[Vet88 674]

50 minutes ago, Furyan said:

In that way, looks like that we have at least 3 modern skates models which are fully or partly belongs to conception (evolution) "stiff lower / flexible upper" you've described: vh/true, ribcor's and probably graf

I didn't know vh/true offered flex zones? Every single skate I've seen from them has rear quarters that are ultra stiff and will never flex in any direction.

[Left Wing King 50]

11 hours ago, Furyan said:

In that way, looks like that we have at least 3 modern skates models which are fully or partly belongs to conception (evolution) "stiff lower / flexible upper" you've described: vh/true, ribcor's and probably graf

regarding true skates - why no one from fastest skaters doesn't use true skates? i cannot get it

only MacKinnon used to use it couple years ago, but now he uses ribcor

Could be a marketing thing, CCM/Bauer pay for players to be there or something. Wouldn't put it past any company to do that

[stick9 890]

3 hours ago, Left Wing King said:

Could be a marketing thing, CCM/Bauer pay for players to be there or something. Wouldn't put it past any company to do that

But it's such a small amount. I can't see players, especially higher profile guys leaving performance on the table just for some pocket change.

[Left Wing King 50]

I meant that CCM/Bauer have paid the NHL to only allow players in who wear their skates only to be allowed in the competition 

[chippa13 1844]

Some people should reread before they hit Submit.

[BenBreeg 493]

18 hours ago, Furyan said:

In that way, looks like that we have at least 3 modern skates models which are fully or partly belongs to conception (evolution) "stiff lower / flexible upper" you've described: vh/true, ribcor's and probably graf

regarding true skates - why no one from fastest skaters doesn't use true skates? i cannot get it

Just because Ribcore is the most flexible of the CCMs doesnt mean they are that flexible, I have them and they are still the stiffest skate I have ever had.

Regarding True and fastest skaters, not sure the disconnect.  They dont have a large market share so the chance of anyone wearing them is low.  And nobodyhas empirically shown they are better/faster that I am aware of.

[start_today 770]

3 hours ago, Left Wing King said:

I meant that CCM/Bauer have paid the NHL to only allow players in who wear their skates only to be allowed in the competition 

Can you provide proof of that? If there’s an article or something about it, I’m not sure what to search to find it. 

[Left Wing King 50]

14 minutes ago, start_today said:

Can you provide proof of that? If there’s an article or something about it, I’m not sure what to search to find it. 

No it was an idea, maybe something like this has happened

[puckpilot 312]

21 hours ago, Furyan said:

regarding true skates - why no one from fastest skaters doesn't use true skates? i cannot get it

Don't NHL players wear custom made skates? So, who knows what customization options companies like CCM and Bauer offer the pros that aren't available to the regular public. Maybe they have just as much to offer as True, maybe more.

[YesLanges 127]

On 4/16/2021 at 12:51 AM, caveman27 said:

Lange was ahead of its time. Using ski boot technology for stiffness, but incorporating a hinge to allow for some forward flex.

 

I never truly appreciated that technology until I tried Bauer NXGs and APX 2s to get away from the weight of my Langes. I appreciated the weight reduction and lateral stiffness of the new materials; but I found it impossible to lace them tightly enough for lateral support without restricting my forward flexion. I ended up returning the APXs for a refund and reselling the NXGs on eBay at a 50% loss, because I'd already sharpened and skated on them (once). About a year later, I tried once more with Graf 5035s and after skating in them 3 or 4 times, I resold them at a 50% loss because I decided that it would probably take me way too long just to be able to skate the same way I skate in my Langes and that I didn't want to invest that kind of time trying to do that, practicing in them and playing in my Langes for a full season or two.

I doubt that flexion zones will provide the solution, because they'll probably only work in a single plane. The problem that gets overlooked in these discussions is that lacing and boot stiffness control movement in the lateral and longitudinal planes simultaneously without any way of adjusting them independently. As advanced as material technology is, I can't imagine that they'll be able to come up with materials that flex differently in different planes simultaneously, much less at any remotely-affordable price for a product that's expected to be flexed hundreds of thousands or millions of times during its intended life.

That's what's so great about the hinge: I can tape above the hinge for lateral support without affecting forward flexion. 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by YesLanges

[iceman8310 105]

Look how long mike gartner's record for fastest skater stood for.  

 

[Miller55 333]

On 4/25/2021 at 5:11 PM, YesLanges said:

I never truly appreciated that technology until I tried Bauer NXGs and APX 2s to get away from the weight of my Langes. I appreciated the weight reduction and lateral stiffness of the new materials; but I found it impossible to lace them tightly enough for lateral support without restricting my forward flexion. I ended up returning the APXs for a refund and reselling the NXGs on eBay at a 50% loss, because I'd already sharpened and skated on them (once). About a year later, I tried once more with Graf 5035s and after skating in them 3 or 4 times, I resold them at a 50% loss because I decided that it would probably take me way too long just to be able to skate the same way I skate in my Langes and that I didn't want to invest that kind of time trying to do that, practicing in them and playing in my Langes for a full season or two.

I doubt that flexion zones will provide the solution, because they'll probably only work in a single plane. The problem that gets overlooked in these discussions is that lacing and boot stiffness control movement in the lateral and longitudinal planes simultaneously without any way of adjusting them independently. As advanced as material technology is, I can't imagine that they'll be able to come up with materials that flex differently in different planes simultaneously, much less at any remotely-affordable price for a product that's expected to be flexed hundreds of thousands or millions of times during its intended life.

That's what's so great about the hinge: I can tape above the hinge for lateral support without affecting forward flexion. 

 

you could get the same effect by creasing the boot at teh spot where the hinge is and then just lacing up.

[YesLanges 127]

33 minutes ago, Miller55 said:

you could get the same effect by creasing the boot at teh spot where the hinge is and then just lacing up.

I don't think so; because once you crease it, that boot becomes less supportive in the lateral plane as well as in the longitudinal plane. My main point was that it's impossible to change the stiffness in only one plane anytime you alter the stiffness of the boot anywhere. With a hinge, the longitudinal flexibility isn't affected by changing the stiffness of the material, whether inherently or by adding supplemental external support, such as by taping above the hinge.

[BenBreeg 493]

23 minutes ago, pgeorgan said:

That is what the messaging around "dropping an eyelet" is doing. The implication is, you won't be like McDavid if you don't do it. Incidentally, McDavid doesn't own the Fastest Skater record. 

The "implication" is (you should argue what is explicitly stated vs. what you deem is implied but I digress) is that dropping an eyelet provides forward flexion which is impeded by todays very stiff skate and forward ankle flexion is beneficial to good skating.  Period.  Other discussions are tangential to that point.

[215BroadStBullies610 435]

Skate like Conor McDavid haha. The implication is pretty clear and I've experienced it myself (even when not wearing Makos anymore). Dropping an eyelet absolutely increase forward flexion. Now it may not be for you doesn't make the study/analysis invalid. I know for myself is that my form is better and I feel more comfortable skating without the last set of eyelets done. Now will it make me faster? I'm only getting older so I should be slowing down regardless but that's beside the point.

[Miller55 333]

12 hours ago, YesLanges said:

I don't think so; because once you crease it, that boot becomes less supportive in the lateral plane as well as in the longitudinal plane. My main point was that it's impossible to change the stiffness in only one plane anytime you alter the stiffness of the boot anywhere. With a hinge, the longitudinal flexibility isn't affected by changing the stiffness of the material, whether inherently or by adding supplemental external support, such as by taping above the hinge.

While you might be right technically, I think practically you will get the same effect and any decreased support in either plane is going to be negligible until the boot starts to break down. Granted, it will break down faster this way than if you wouldn't crease it, but I don't think there will be any appreciable difference practically speaking. Anyway, I don't advocate either of these, personally I just drop eyelets. I don't find there is much loss in lateral stability. If you are very concerned, you can try Graf 707s, which are a bit better than the Langes but have a similar idea in practice. While I'm a big performance over style guy and think the idea of sacrificing performance for looks is absurd, I don't think I could be seen in those Langes.

[BenBreeg 493]

Arguing is simply debating, not a negative connotation.  This board is populated by a bunch of hockey and hockey gear geeks, creating threads and debating minutiae is what makes this world go round, it's what we like to do here.  Participation in any thread is 100% voluntary.

[Larry54 243]

On 4/15/2021 at 8:04 PM, BenBreeg said:

I don’t see anyone claiming it is a new paradigm, I think you are tilting at windmills.  As long as I can remember people have viewed one of the purposes of skates to do the work of supporting the ankle.  Tendon guards used to have eyelets, guys used to tape tendon guards to their shinguards, lace tighteners, etc.  The stance of the desireability of greater degrees of ankle mobility is not a widely held view for the general population.  Stiffer skates do make the problem worse.  How messaging around lacing solutions is doing a disservice is a mystery.  You going to convince them to make softer skates?

I remember having those eyelets with the small thin laces on the tendon guards. They added no support whatsoever. I think their purpose was to keep the tendon guard against the tendon.

And with all this talk about maintaining lateral support while having forward flex, one could argue that lateral support is not that necessay if you have proper skating technique, though it might still be good to limit lateral movement just enough to prevent injury. 🤔

Edited April 28, 2021 by Larry54

[the_game 452]

Interesting topic & discussion, just want to drop 2 anecdotes I've encountered over my years and how they relate:

Years back I was dealing with some awful hip pain that lead me to an orthopedist by the name of Brian Busconi, you know you're in the right spot when your doctor has a HockeyDB page and a Harvard Hockey Jersey in his office, notta big deal. After we got done with the pleasantries of going with PT instead of any surgery he actually asked me about what brand and model skate I was using. The interesting thing about that question is I was only 6 months or so out from making the switch from a pair of pro stock Bauer 1000 old school leather skates to the recently released Bauer APX skates. The doc said the first thing I wanted to do was go back and find another pair of Bauer 1000s or at the very least buy one of the lower end pairs of Bauers that would not be as stiff as the APX I was using. He began discussing all of the negatives that go along with the stiffness of the newly designed skates and how he sees younger and younger players with Knee, hip, & ankle issues. Long story short, went out and found some pro-stock tech mesh vapors and after making that switch and some PT, no more hip pain. 

Another tangential topic that I think applies here is a chat I had was with Wayne up at Zwickers once upon a time. I think we were talking about the work he used to do for Paul Coffey and then somehow started talking about Kevin Lowe and how he used the 2-piece hinged Microns and Bauer plastic boots forever. Wayne said there was an internal battle at Bauer about continuing the R&D on those 2-piece boots and although all of their research showed them to perform better they just didn't sell and that was the end of them.

 

[Miller55 333]

4 hours ago, Larry54 said:

I remember having those eyelets with the small thin laces on the tendon guards. They added no support whatsoever. I think their purpose was to keep the tendon guard against the tendon.

And with all this talk about maintaining lateral support while having forward flex, one could argue that lateral support is not that necessay if you have proper skating technique, though it might still be good to limit lateral movement just enough to prevent injury. 🤔

The point of lateral support is correct imo. Good technique makes lateral support relatively unimportant for skating, but hockey skating doesn't happen in a vacuum, so that lateral support definitely helps for collisions and potential injuries. Those are not usually the result of poor technique, but of contact and accidents. 

 

Regarding the hinge on a boot, Graf 707s and Ultra G7s offer the same thing without looking like absolute dust... For those who are interested.

[Larry54 243]

Just an observation, in this picture Orr's top 3 eyelets (if there isn't a 4th under the tape) are unlaced but his tendon guards and tongues are taped against his upper ankle. 🤔

Edited April 28, 2021 by Larry54

[boo10 323]

22 minutes ago, Larry54 said:

Just an observation, in this picture Orr's top 3 eyelets (if there isn't a 4th under the tape) are unlaced but his tendon guards and tongues are taped against his upper ankle. 🤔

Being old enough to have worn similar tube skates at a young age, I can confidently say those skates were about as stiff as a pair of Converse High Cuts.  That tape is just holding the tongue and tendon against his leg, but there is zero stiffness.  Tape is well above his ankle.

On a side note, Lanny just looks wrong without the walrus stache.

Edited April 28, 2021 by boo10

[caveman27 208]

I had bought these CCM Rbk skates that had this metal loop that allowed you to tighten the laces below the ankles at a certain tightness, and then pressing the metal loop over this plastic round thing locked the laces in at that tightness so you could tighten the top 3 eyelets at a different tightness.

 

Those didn't fit right and I ended up getting CCM Jetspeeds.

They stopped making the Ribcor model like that. I guess that idea didn't work out.

[start_today 770]

That lace lock is my #1 hockey tech that disappeared that I’d love to bring back. 

[Miller55 333]

I took them off my og rbk ribcore. Couldn't really figure out how to adjust them to my liking. I probably still have them in an old bag of hardware