flip12
-
Content Count
2691 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
77 -
Feedback
0%
Posts posted by flip12
-
-
2 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:There are way too many variables here. For example, you are changing skate models and insoles. You also haven't stated if the steel on both is new and unaltered. There is no control set for any of these inconsistencies so it's difficult for anyone to provide a scientific explanation that would be justifiable. This is why when you make changes you should only alter one item at a time and always maintain a control set.
In his second post he mentioned the profile:
On 9/28/2019 at 6:59 PM, hockeydad3 said:I changed from a N2900 with a SuperFeet insole and a neutral pitch, 13' radius and a 92/50FBV to a Supreme 180 with a very thin insole and the same runner. The profile didn't feel good anymore and I was feeling my weight too much towards my heels. So I was trying a 11' radius +1 forward pitch with a 92/75FBV(which was OK for me with a stock 10' profile before). The pitch was feeling good but I couldn't turn or stop anymore because the edges were way too sharp.
This was the point where I was opening this thread. Meanwhile I went via a 95/50FBV(too shallow) to a 90/75FBV which seems to be a good starting point to get used to the new setup. Didn't think That a change between a 92/75FBV and a 90/75FBV could make such a big difference.
But I'm still interested in the pros and cons of pitching beside of moving the balance point.
I thought he meant it was profiled to 13' when he still had N2900s and then swapped that runner into the holder on his Supreme 180s.
It sounds like @stick9 has nailed a significant factor: pitching +1 on Supremes with stock insoles bringing you closer to the effective pitch of the N2900s, which it sounded like you were happy with. So you lost some pitch going to Supremes without SuperFeet and pitching it +1 got you back towards what you were previously on.
19 hours ago, stick9 said:The difference between those two is fairly significant. Blackstone lists the 92/75 as a 9/16 while the 90/75 a 3/4.
I'd suggest tweaking only one thing at a time. The more variables you have in play the harder it is to track.
Your issue is due to the footbeds. Superfeet have a decent amount of heel left to them. Stock beds not have next to nothing.
-
8 hours ago, Vet88 said:Does his 70k skates have 10 or 11 eyelets? Retail version have 10 so if he is skipping the 10th eyelet it means he either has custom facings or it's something like the 50k facing on a 70k frame?
It looks like Crosby’s got the traditional more L-shaped < 70K cut compared to the C-shaped 70K cut. The eyelets over his instep are almost punched in the jewel. That and slightly less spacing between the eyelets seem to make way for the extra eyelet on his pair. They don’t look to be especially low cut at the top.
Good eye @BenBreeg, the shot of Sid in @SkateWorksPNW‘s link show only 10 eyelets, where the 10th is skipped and the 11th is presumably hidden by the bottom of Sid’s shins.
-
3 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:He’s skipping the second eyelet in all of those. If you catch him with his leg flexed you risk missing the top eyelet because his shin slides down and conceals it. This happens quite a bit because he’s quite a deep skater. If you look at the right time you can see both: skipped eyelet with top laced eyelet concealed and top eyelet visible on the other skate. Just some examples from the ‘10-‘11 Winter Classic since it’s a precisely identifiable event in your example set:
-
1
-
-
6 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Crosby is not the only player still using that hodler, Subban is another. If you look around you will see quite a few guys preferring to use that holder over TUUK or newer CCM holders. That holder is very stiff and some of the players like that it sits a little lower to the ice vs the newer holders. Also, I have seen Crosby change his lacing a few times. Typically he drops the top eyelet but my understanding was when he switched to a newer boot he had them cut with a shorter ankle and he started to do a lace lock with the top eyelets, skipping one from the top.
Really? When did Crosby skip the top eyelet? I’ve only seen where he laces to the top, skipping the second eyelet almost always since his rookie season and lacing the second eyelet as well in juniors.
Datsyuk stuck with E Pros too.
-
54 minutes ago, caveman27 said:That's interesting. I've never heard of down-spec'ed ice skates. I'm not saying they don't exist, I figure it would just be easier for the equipment manager and the skate company just to get an off-the-shelf skate that is one tier lower, like 7K.
Pros have long had much higher granularity than that. Parts can be swapped in and out to achieve the right feel. Sometimes that could mean dialing the stiffness of a part back...or up. To simply grab a lower tier product could work in theory, but that idea obscures the fact that there’s so much more going on than meets the eye in a custom boot. Companies want you to think pros are using the latest and greatest, but just as with sticks, it’s not really possible to tell what specs a player has until you get properly identifying information, which isn’t necessarily the retail wrapper you see on sticks or skates. It’s not a question as much of what would be easier to supply a player, because then custom skates wouldn’t exist. But players have mismatched size feet or a desire for more stiffness in one area and less in another. If CCM didn’t fulfill those wishes, Bauer would, etc., etc.
Another Fedorov anecdote: his Air Accel Elite styled Nikes were different than everyone else’s. They were cut one eyelet lower and had a Graf 703 / 501 shaped tendon guard instead of the Daoust shaped one that was standard on that line. Mogilny similarly had shorter cut Vapor 8s and XXs with varying top eyelet spacing / placement. Not on all of his pairs but some.
-
38 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Just to reiterate. Stiff doesnt = fast. Proper form = fast. Look at the mechanics of Crosby, McDavid and Mackinnon and you can see they are all wearing skates that are stiff enough to support their movements but they do not rely on the boot itself for stability. I think a lot of this has to be with players using their hips more instead of using their legs, like comparing Jagr vs McDavid skating styles.
McDavid’s lower leg strength and activation is so far superior to anyone else currently playing the only other footage I’ve seen of similar unparalleled power is watching Bobby Orr (on YouTube...Orr’s before my time). McD also gets away with not bending his knees as much as guys with locked ankles—like Cam Atkinson for example. Connor does get extremely low sometimes, but he’ll fly through the entire opposing team in what looks like a ridiculously relaxed posture. Modano skated like that too, just with less zip and zing.
-
47 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:So just realized my trues only have 9 eyelets, obviously because they are made to the size of my feet / strategically placed.
My as1s and previous Bauer's both had 10. Because I skip an eyelet on the Trues does that equate to almost two eyelets dropped on the as1s, esp because the as1s were even taller than it's predecessor?
I already noticed even tying my trues all the way to the top I had quite a bit more flexion vs the as1s.
I think True boot height is more in line with Graf and Mako, so roughly 1 eyelet lower than Bauer and CCM. It won’t be as many eyelets as the taller boots as there simply isn’t space for it.
-
46 minutes ago, caveman27 said:You mean Connor McDavid? He's wears CCM JetSpeed. That's the top end, unless he's upgraded to FT2 or whatever it is now.
Marleau is in 9K. They are old. But when they were sold as new, the Reebok 9K was top-of-the-line. So, back in that time, late 2000s early 2010s, lower-end models were designed with a number lower than 9K.
Marleau’s 9K’s are still down-spec’d a bit from how a stock 9K was. He stuck with TPU outsoles like there were on his previous CCM skates. His eyelet pattern is also funky, omitting eyelets 2 and 4 from the top which also promotes forward flex. Fedorov and Bure also rocked TPU outsoled boots after composite was introduced: Bure on his early Vapor 8s and Fedorov on G3s. McDavid’s stiffness spec apparently matches the third tier offerring in the Tacks lineup: https://www.icewarehouse.com/CCM_Tacks_9080/descpage-CT8S.html
If he had wanted stiffer when JetSpeeds came out he almost certainly could have had that spec.
-
1 hour ago, clarkiestooth said:Heal lock helps with edge planting and edge feel. The flexible tendon guards on today's skates help do what you're talking about: allow easier full straightening of the pushing leg, thus facilitating the toe flick.
Back then tendon guards started out stiff and broke in, allowing at least some of that toe flick, some brands more than others. My CCM 652 Pump Tacks felt pretty much the same in tendon guard ROM as my MLX do. Stamm’s instructor was out for maximum toe flick. With heel lock you can get some but with heel lift you can get even more.
Stamm’s teaching made a lot of sense for me getting a hockey boot to work more naturally before I made the jump to Graf. My 705s let me fly like I never knew I could. They had both heel lock and incredible range of motion.
-
1 hour ago, caveman27 said:Well, the concept of skating with laces undone to get a feel for the edges and developing better balance and having a stiff boot for game-time play seem to be two different things to me. You have a video of someone achieving better skating skills but running drills with laces tied loosely and he's not in a game. That seems okay as one is using more muscles to achieve balance to make up for less ankle support. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, would you or do you skate like that during a game.
Dropping eyelets allows the ankle to flex forward, but that is different than going to a less stiffer boot where side-to-side flex is greater than a top-of-the-line skate. No young elite NHL skater is going from a Bauer 2S Pro to a S25.
I don't know of any NHL-level player who wears a skate with a less stiff boot than a pro-level boot, or an Olympic level figure skater who is wearing an intermediate or beginning level boot instead of an expert level boot. Are they all "crappy" skaters who are relying on stiff boots to adjust for poor fundamentals of ice skating? Actually, pro level skaters require stiffer boots, whether its ice hockey or figure skating, for the amount of stress they are putting on them. Intermediate level skates flex too much.
Both Marleau and McDavid compete on less stiff than current top-end stiffness.
Looking backwards in skate history there have always been skaters who exhibit remarkable speed and agility. Look at the dynamic skating of Valeri Kharlamov and it’s clear boots don’t have to be stiff for players to do what they need to do on the ice.
-
1
-
-
What I appreciate about this thread is its fundamental questioning of the current state of hockey skates. I’m in the camp with those that would say they’re overstructured. There’s a lot of nuance in all of the facets that go into skating so it’s a worthwhile discussion.
Regarding heel lock, I somewhat recall being taught at Laura Stamm Power Skating that you get more stride length if you get heel lift. That way you have even more toe flick. The instructors all skated 1-3 eyelets unlaced and this was back when O.G. Bauer Vapor 8s just came out.
-
If you go back in the archives on here, the connection is clear: MLX is what they renamed DASC, an acronym of 4 names where D is David Cruikshank and S Scott Van Horne after Mario Lemieux came on as an investor. I don’t know who the other two are. If you rewatch the Making of the Mako videos, Cruikshank shows off his SVH made prototype. I’m pretty sure he mentions SVH as the boot maker there. But SVH was the builder behind MLX/DASC as far as I know. Why VH Footwear didn’t have a non-compete with the Mako might come down to the different companies or the subtle differences between the Mako and VH, I’m not sure. Before all that Van Horne was also involved with Kor. @JunkyardAthletic knows the details much better.
-
1
-
-
32 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:Is it just try and error or are there predicting factors for someone to buy the right skate?
A typical statement is that beginners should use a softer skate.
Are there beginners who need an advanced skate?
That's kind of the best I know of at this point. I've wondered about ways to try skates out before you buy them, but I'm not sure of a good way to do it yet. I guess that's why CCM has their forgiving trial return policy.
Maybe if you could try skates on without the holders and do a set of jumping exercises in them you could get a sense of if they hinder your forward flex or not. I doubt this would work well for testing their lateral support for turns though.
-
As @clarkiestooth says, the stiffness of the boot has a lot to do with whether a player will feel undersupported (I think this is what people mean by sloppy when they’re talking about stiffness), adequately supported or restricted (oversupported). Different strokes for different players, though, literally. The stride length, as a function of the player’s natural body frame, of say Grabner versus Toews will have a large influence on where these over and undersupported lines get individually drawn. In my personal experience, a significantly overlooked component in this equation is tongue stiffness. If there’s room to go down in tongue stiffness, a stiffer boot can still allow for adequate forward flex.
-
1
-
-
45 minutes ago, nshore5 said:Ok great thanks. I bought a pair of prostock Trues and they seemed wide and like moon boots compared to my makos. But they were a size E and probably punched out, so probably would think differently if they were sized correctly for me. Do they have the same forward pitch as makos? Thats what makes makos so unique and would be tough going back to a bauer or ccm unless u profiled the crap out of them.
A significant number of Mako lovers loved them in spite of that aggressive pitch. A lot of people swapped holders to tone it down a bit. Some of that pitch is in the boot, some in the holder and some the steel. You can still replicate that angle even in something as different as a Nexus skate. Shims will change your angle without affecting the steel. Buy the skate for how it fits your foot dynamically. Adjust for ice contact properties afterwards as these are primarily issues of the steel and holder (though in concert with the boot) and can be tuned as needed regardless of which boot suits you.
-
2
-
-
4 hours ago, z1ggy said:There's nothing wrong with the elbow pads I have now, other than being like... 8 years old and pretty gross. They function properly still and most of the stitching is still intact. I'll look into the seamstress thing...maybe the lady who does dry cleaning down the street can do it, I know she does minor alterations for pants, shirts, etc.
Maybe you’re due for new elbows, but I’d argue you should choose those based on best fit and function. If the jersey’s still tight there, get the jersey altered to fit the elbow pads, rather than letting the jersey dictate which pads you wear.
-
1
-
-
If you’re happy with the elbows, maybe get a quote from a seamster for adding a little volume to the sleeve. Could be cheaper, plus the minimum I can think of is either the Jofa or Sherwood classic styles that are essentially volleyball knee pads. I had some super mobile and low profile Kohos for years but replaced them after a slew-foot check almost shattered my elbow.
-
1
-
-
Looks like a better fit than what he had last season.
-
11 hours ago, stick9 said:Gee, flip13 disagrees me...there's a shocker.
Let me dumb it down for everyone. In the orginal pic of Nylander he looks a lot like Pasta, enough so to warrant a snarky remark, which I provided. Not sure why that got everyone's panties in a bunch.
And yes, William and David are friends. It's pretty well documented.
The original picture doesn’t look at all like Pastrnak. You can’t possibly dumb it down, your point was clear from the beginning.
The reason I thought it was interesting is there are people who are face blind. Do you often have these switch ups?
-
2
-
-
1 hour ago, stick9 said:It's not the number, they actually look alike. Being friends makes it even weirder.
I don’t think they look alike at all beyond the fact that they’re both athletic white males of approximately the same age (they’re less than a month apart in age, but I didn’t know that before looking it up, and anyone comparing their appearance wouldn’t necessarily know it either). But that description fits a majority of the NHL. Nylander’s got a very LEGO face, so once you’ve recognized him it’s hard to mistake him for someone else. Pastrnak’s got a much longer looking face and a generally goofier game face than Nylander. I could see mixing Pastrnak up with Anze Kopitar if it weren’t for the age difference.
Who’s friends with whom? P and N are or you are with P and N?
-
1
-
-
10 hours ago, clarkiestooth said:To me, it seems identical to the Bauer one, with the exception that the fasteners are made to fit the CCM helmets, unlike the Bauer bubble.
The ventilation pattern is very similar but subtly different. Notably an even number of 'columns' in the grill that make the middle a void rather than a bar; Concept features an odd number, putting a vertical in the middle. The ventilation on the side is a bit different as well. I wonder if these minor differences will have any effect on how they breathe, comparatively, or whether it's purely cosmetic.
-
I was about to ask what Heritage is, but a quick search gave this: https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/roustan-capital-acquires-heritage-hockey-sticks
-
2 hours ago, Leif said:Yes, I agree, they should be compared to Bauer/CCM customs. I know four people with Bauer customs, including myself, all are perfect. But I won’t draw conclusions from a small sample. Incidentally I don’t have a dog in the race. I would have bought Trues if the shop wasn’t 250 miles away, compared to 25 miles away for the Bauer dealer who now stocks Trues!
Totally agree. I don’t know anyone with Bauer or CCM customs, but from reading on here I’ve come across some complaints reminiscent of those against True customs.
-
1
-
-
The nature of True’s zero negative space fit could lend itself to these struggles too. Comparing them to what you see from Bauer and CCM at retail isn’t really apples to apples. With less filler in the mix custom Trues seem to be a tricky puzzle of cookie cutter pieces that must come together on a more unique target form with each pair. In my opinion, this is some of the growing pains you get from a speed skate maker making further and further inroads on the hockey market. Just consider that elite custom speed boots seem to run around $2K per pair, plus the claim from SVH that hockey boots are subject to far more substantial abuse from abrasions and impacts on the outside and perspiration on the inside. That and the sheer volume discrepancies between the hockey and speed skating markets point toward an adjustment phase where the techniques adapted from the one sea are firmly reapplied in the new one. Meantime, True’s market penetration keeps growing. That’s number one.
Side effects of pitching
in Ice Hockey Equipment
Posted · Report reply
Here's where what @SkateWorksPNW and @stick9 has to be addressed, as there really are a lot of variables you've mentioned.
If your feet feel better in the Supremes than they did in the Nexus, you could be benefitting from that, unrelated to the pitch change.
When you had SuperFeet in your Nexus, did it feel better than the original insoles the skates came with but still not good enough, hence the switch to Supreme?
What kind of pain has gone away in the Supremes compared to your previous Nexus skates?
Supreme and Nexus are supposed to have a bit of a different approach to fit and feel. It could be you're benefitting from the skate family change. Maybe the material make-up of the S180 suits you better than the N2900. The S180 is the higher end skate of the two, right?
If you provide more details about the good and bad in the comparisons you're making, it'll be easier for the other active members in this thread, who are more knowledgeable than I am on these questions, to give you detailed answers.