flip12
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Posts posted by flip12
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3 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:He’s skipping the second eyelet in all of those. If you catch him with his leg flexed you risk missing the top eyelet because his shin slides down and conceals it. This happens quite a bit because he’s quite a deep skater. If you look at the right time you can see both: skipped eyelet with top laced eyelet concealed and top eyelet visible on the other skate. Just some examples from the ‘10-‘11 Winter Classic since it’s a precisely identifiable event in your example set:
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6 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Crosby is not the only player still using that hodler, Subban is another. If you look around you will see quite a few guys preferring to use that holder over TUUK or newer CCM holders. That holder is very stiff and some of the players like that it sits a little lower to the ice vs the newer holders. Also, I have seen Crosby change his lacing a few times. Typically he drops the top eyelet but my understanding was when he switched to a newer boot he had them cut with a shorter ankle and he started to do a lace lock with the top eyelets, skipping one from the top.
Really? When did Crosby skip the top eyelet? I’ve only seen where he laces to the top, skipping the second eyelet almost always since his rookie season and lacing the second eyelet as well in juniors.
Datsyuk stuck with E Pros too.
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54 minutes ago, caveman27 said:That's interesting. I've never heard of down-spec'ed ice skates. I'm not saying they don't exist, I figure it would just be easier for the equipment manager and the skate company just to get an off-the-shelf skate that is one tier lower, like 7K.
Pros have long had much higher granularity than that. Parts can be swapped in and out to achieve the right feel. Sometimes that could mean dialing the stiffness of a part back...or up. To simply grab a lower tier product could work in theory, but that idea obscures the fact that there’s so much more going on than meets the eye in a custom boot. Companies want you to think pros are using the latest and greatest, but just as with sticks, it’s not really possible to tell what specs a player has until you get properly identifying information, which isn’t necessarily the retail wrapper you see on sticks or skates. It’s not a question as much of what would be easier to supply a player, because then custom skates wouldn’t exist. But players have mismatched size feet or a desire for more stiffness in one area and less in another. If CCM didn’t fulfill those wishes, Bauer would, etc., etc.
Another Fedorov anecdote: his Air Accel Elite styled Nikes were different than everyone else’s. They were cut one eyelet lower and had a Graf 703 / 501 shaped tendon guard instead of the Daoust shaped one that was standard on that line. Mogilny similarly had shorter cut Vapor 8s and XXs with varying top eyelet spacing / placement. Not on all of his pairs but some.
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38 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Just to reiterate. Stiff doesnt = fast. Proper form = fast. Look at the mechanics of Crosby, McDavid and Mackinnon and you can see they are all wearing skates that are stiff enough to support their movements but they do not rely on the boot itself for stability. I think a lot of this has to be with players using their hips more instead of using their legs, like comparing Jagr vs McDavid skating styles.
McDavid’s lower leg strength and activation is so far superior to anyone else currently playing the only other footage I’ve seen of similar unparalleled power is watching Bobby Orr (on YouTube...Orr’s before my time). McD also gets away with not bending his knees as much as guys with locked ankles—like Cam Atkinson for example. Connor does get extremely low sometimes, but he’ll fly through the entire opposing team in what looks like a ridiculously relaxed posture. Modano skated like that too, just with less zip and zing.
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47 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:So just realized my trues only have 9 eyelets, obviously because they are made to the size of my feet / strategically placed.
My as1s and previous Bauer's both had 10. Because I skip an eyelet on the Trues does that equate to almost two eyelets dropped on the as1s, esp because the as1s were even taller than it's predecessor?
I already noticed even tying my trues all the way to the top I had quite a bit more flexion vs the as1s.
I think True boot height is more in line with Graf and Mako, so roughly 1 eyelet lower than Bauer and CCM. It won’t be as many eyelets as the taller boots as there simply isn’t space for it.
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46 minutes ago, caveman27 said:You mean Connor McDavid? He's wears CCM JetSpeed. That's the top end, unless he's upgraded to FT2 or whatever it is now.
Marleau is in 9K. They are old. But when they were sold as new, the Reebok 9K was top-of-the-line. So, back in that time, late 2000s early 2010s, lower-end models were designed with a number lower than 9K.
Marleau’s 9K’s are still down-spec’d a bit from how a stock 9K was. He stuck with TPU outsoles like there were on his previous CCM skates. His eyelet pattern is also funky, omitting eyelets 2 and 4 from the top which also promotes forward flex. Fedorov and Bure also rocked TPU outsoled boots after composite was introduced: Bure on his early Vapor 8s and Fedorov on G3s. McDavid’s stiffness spec apparently matches the third tier offerring in the Tacks lineup: https://www.icewarehouse.com/CCM_Tacks_9080/descpage-CT8S.html
If he had wanted stiffer when JetSpeeds came out he almost certainly could have had that spec.
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1 hour ago, clarkiestooth said:Heal lock helps with edge planting and edge feel. The flexible tendon guards on today's skates help do what you're talking about: allow easier full straightening of the pushing leg, thus facilitating the toe flick.
Back then tendon guards started out stiff and broke in, allowing at least some of that toe flick, some brands more than others. My CCM 652 Pump Tacks felt pretty much the same in tendon guard ROM as my MLX do. Stamm’s instructor was out for maximum toe flick. With heel lock you can get some but with heel lift you can get even more.
Stamm’s teaching made a lot of sense for me getting a hockey boot to work more naturally before I made the jump to Graf. My 705s let me fly like I never knew I could. They had both heel lock and incredible range of motion.
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1 hour ago, caveman27 said:Well, the concept of skating with laces undone to get a feel for the edges and developing better balance and having a stiff boot for game-time play seem to be two different things to me. You have a video of someone achieving better skating skills but running drills with laces tied loosely and he's not in a game. That seems okay as one is using more muscles to achieve balance to make up for less ankle support. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, would you or do you skate like that during a game.
Dropping eyelets allows the ankle to flex forward, but that is different than going to a less stiffer boot where side-to-side flex is greater than a top-of-the-line skate. No young elite NHL skater is going from a Bauer 2S Pro to a S25.
I don't know of any NHL-level player who wears a skate with a less stiff boot than a pro-level boot, or an Olympic level figure skater who is wearing an intermediate or beginning level boot instead of an expert level boot. Are they all "crappy" skaters who are relying on stiff boots to adjust for poor fundamentals of ice skating? Actually, pro level skaters require stiffer boots, whether its ice hockey or figure skating, for the amount of stress they are putting on them. Intermediate level skates flex too much.
Both Marleau and McDavid compete on less stiff than current top-end stiffness.
Looking backwards in skate history there have always been skaters who exhibit remarkable speed and agility. Look at the dynamic skating of Valeri Kharlamov and it’s clear boots don’t have to be stiff for players to do what they need to do on the ice.
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What I appreciate about this thread is its fundamental questioning of the current state of hockey skates. I’m in the camp with those that would say they’re overstructured. There’s a lot of nuance in all of the facets that go into skating so it’s a worthwhile discussion.
Regarding heel lock, I somewhat recall being taught at Laura Stamm Power Skating that you get more stride length if you get heel lift. That way you have even more toe flick. The instructors all skated 1-3 eyelets unlaced and this was back when O.G. Bauer Vapor 8s just came out.
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If you go back in the archives on here, the connection is clear: MLX is what they renamed DASC, an acronym of 4 names where D is David Cruikshank and S Scott Van Horne after Mario Lemieux came on as an investor. I don’t know who the other two are. If you rewatch the Making of the Mako videos, Cruikshank shows off his SVH made prototype. I’m pretty sure he mentions SVH as the boot maker there. But SVH was the builder behind MLX/DASC as far as I know. Why VH Footwear didn’t have a non-compete with the Mako might come down to the different companies or the subtle differences between the Mako and VH, I’m not sure. Before all that Van Horne was also involved with Kor. @JunkyardAthletic knows the details much better.
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32 minutes ago, hockeydad3 said:Is it just try and error or are there predicting factors for someone to buy the right skate?
A typical statement is that beginners should use a softer skate.
Are there beginners who need an advanced skate?
That's kind of the best I know of at this point. I've wondered about ways to try skates out before you buy them, but I'm not sure of a good way to do it yet. I guess that's why CCM has their forgiving trial return policy.
Maybe if you could try skates on without the holders and do a set of jumping exercises in them you could get a sense of if they hinder your forward flex or not. I doubt this would work well for testing their lateral support for turns though.
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As @clarkiestooth says, the stiffness of the boot has a lot to do with whether a player will feel undersupported (I think this is what people mean by sloppy when they’re talking about stiffness), adequately supported or restricted (oversupported). Different strokes for different players, though, literally. The stride length, as a function of the player’s natural body frame, of say Grabner versus Toews will have a large influence on where these over and undersupported lines get individually drawn. In my personal experience, a significantly overlooked component in this equation is tongue stiffness. If there’s room to go down in tongue stiffness, a stiffer boot can still allow for adequate forward flex.
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45 minutes ago, nshore5 said:Ok great thanks. I bought a pair of prostock Trues and they seemed wide and like moon boots compared to my makos. But they were a size E and probably punched out, so probably would think differently if they were sized correctly for me. Do they have the same forward pitch as makos? Thats what makes makos so unique and would be tough going back to a bauer or ccm unless u profiled the crap out of them.
A significant number of Mako lovers loved them in spite of that aggressive pitch. A lot of people swapped holders to tone it down a bit. Some of that pitch is in the boot, some in the holder and some the steel. You can still replicate that angle even in something as different as a Nexus skate. Shims will change your angle without affecting the steel. Buy the skate for how it fits your foot dynamically. Adjust for ice contact properties afterwards as these are primarily issues of the steel and holder (though in concert with the boot) and can be tuned as needed regardless of which boot suits you.
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Looks like a better fit than what he had last season.
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11 hours ago, stick9 said:Gee, flip13 disagrees me...there's a shocker.
Let me dumb it down for everyone. In the orginal pic of Nylander he looks a lot like Pasta, enough so to warrant a snarky remark, which I provided. Not sure why that got everyone's panties in a bunch.
And yes, William and David are friends. It's pretty well documented.
The original picture doesn’t look at all like Pastrnak. You can’t possibly dumb it down, your point was clear from the beginning.
The reason I thought it was interesting is there are people who are face blind. Do you often have these switch ups?
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1 hour ago, stick9 said:It's not the number, they actually look alike. Being friends makes it even weirder.
I don’t think they look alike at all beyond the fact that they’re both athletic white males of approximately the same age (they’re less than a month apart in age, but I didn’t know that before looking it up, and anyone comparing their appearance wouldn’t necessarily know it either). But that description fits a majority of the NHL. Nylander’s got a very LEGO face, so once you’ve recognized him it’s hard to mistake him for someone else. Pastrnak’s got a much longer looking face and a generally goofier game face than Nylander. I could see mixing Pastrnak up with Anze Kopitar if it weren’t for the age difference.
Who’s friends with whom? P and N are or you are with P and N?
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10 hours ago, clarkiestooth said:To me, it seems identical to the Bauer one, with the exception that the fasteners are made to fit the CCM helmets, unlike the Bauer bubble.
The ventilation pattern is very similar but subtly different. Notably an even number of 'columns' in the grill that make the middle a void rather than a bar; Concept features an odd number, putting a vertical in the middle. The ventilation on the side is a bit different as well. I wonder if these minor differences will have any effect on how they breathe, comparatively, or whether it's purely cosmetic.
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2 hours ago, Leif said:Yes, I agree, they should be compared to Bauer/CCM customs. I know four people with Bauer customs, including myself, all are perfect. But I won’t draw conclusions from a small sample. Incidentally I don’t have a dog in the race. I would have bought Trues if the shop wasn’t 250 miles away, compared to 25 miles away for the Bauer dealer who now stocks Trues!
Totally agree. I don’t know anyone with Bauer or CCM customs, but from reading on here I’ve come across some complaints reminiscent of those against True customs.
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The nature of True’s zero negative space fit could lend itself to these struggles too. Comparing them to what you see from Bauer and CCM at retail isn’t really apples to apples. With less filler in the mix custom Trues seem to be a tricky puzzle of cookie cutter pieces that must come together on a more unique target form with each pair. In my opinion, this is some of the growing pains you get from a speed skate maker making further and further inroads on the hockey market. Just consider that elite custom speed boots seem to run around $2K per pair, plus the claim from SVH that hockey boots are subject to far more substantial abuse from abrasions and impacts on the outside and perspiration on the inside. That and the sheer volume discrepancies between the hockey and speed skating markets point toward an adjustment phase where the techniques adapted from the one sea are firmly reapplied in the new one. Meantime, True’s market penetration keeps growing. That’s number one.
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1 hour ago, Nicholas G said:Not the new standard thin tongue. The optional one does.
What is the new one’s material makeup? Foam, felt, and leather? Can you share some detailed views of it?
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Does the new tongue have a moderately stiff thermoplastic piece running 90% of its length like the MLX tongue had?
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3 hours ago, mojo122 said:What size is that? I weighed the size 8 sample skate with the new holder and steel and it came in at 750 grams. Skate needs a couple of more improvements IMO, but the weight reduction is a good one.
What improvements do you have in mind?
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11 hours ago, Kgbeast said:The Graf insistence on 2-piece goes beyond fit. Actually fit would not be a problem in all plastic boot as that can be molded to whatever shape with modern methods. Graf's thing is also about that different parts of the boot need to have different stiffness and flex, which is not possible if the whole thing is made of one material. Bauer not into monocoque stuff either. Seems like CCM does it to be competitive with Bauer under assumption that it has something more cutting edge. Not sure if they themselves believe into monocoque thing. I have not really heard any convincing argument for monocoque construction, just some waffle about the energy transfer which is rather questionable. But hey, heart wants what heart wants.
I wouldn’t change that either. That’s another thing I think Graf gets more than the other skate brands...though I suppose it’s impossiblebto refute the simple counter-argument that other brands only make their skates stiffer than stiff across the entire boot because that’s what the customer wants; on the other hand Bauer and CCM have begun to walk back their overzealous boot stiffening of late.
Again, look at Viking speed skates: they’re not nearly as stiff as competitors’ boots, but they’re still popular and skaters wearing them still figure in the medal count. They’ve meshed the integrated outsole-quarter piece and managed to maintain their optimal feel of stiff down low and softer on top.
The marketing of the one piece boot is often a bit wishy washy, but I definitely notice a difference in high speed turning stability and more immediate response wearing my MLX compared to Graf. There are still things, previously mentioned, that I still prefer from my Grafs. But when I swap them out for MLXs mid-session, I feel the performance boost instantly. I’m starting to wonder if this has less to do with there being less material or fewer parts in the boot-holder junction and more to do with the boot better resisting torsion.
I’ll add some visual materials to show where that thinking comes from in a little bit. I think I’ll have to dig around to find some images and also probably sketch some others. I just want to finish this monster post, “Sorry,” with this: whatever the cause, I definitely do believe in the benefit of the one piece boot...not that I think it has to be one chunk of a shell, but that the effect of those skates is very real, and I’d bet the future of hockey skates 10-years down the line.
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11 hours ago, AnimalFear said:I understand that, but they say that the two-piece quarter package/heel part is the reason why they fit so well, so going to a more traditional one-piece construction would require losing their calling card in terms of being such comfortable fitting skates. Then again, Graf is basically just barely surviving at this point because of a perceived lack of desire to innovate, so perhaps you are right and they should offer a new line that has the one-piece construction.
Right. I’d try integrating the parts quarter A - outsole - quarter B into a butterflylike unit, leaving the heel part to be stitched up the same way they’ve been doing for decades.
Viking’s heel cup is similar, but I picture the approach I’d try changing less about Graf’s assembly process.
Stiffness of skates
in Ice Hockey Equipment
Posted · Edited by flip12 · Report reply
It looks like Crosby’s got the traditional more L-shaped < 70K cut compared to the C-shaped 70K cut. The eyelets over his instep are almost punched in the jewel. That and slightly less spacing between the eyelets seem to make way for the extra eyelet on his pair. They don’t look to be especially low cut at the top.
Good eye @BenBreeg, the shot of Sid in @SkateWorksPNW‘s link show only 10 eyelets, where the 10th is skipped and the 11th is presumably hidden by the bottom of Sid’s shins.