flip12
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Posts posted by flip12
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Some other potentially more relevant videos are available:
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7 hours ago, shooter27 said:That video was super interesting, but its also super old. Those sticks are very early OPS, circa 2004-2005 and the construction methods have changed completely since then so I don’t know if its applicable to how blades are constructed and shaped today. I’m sure some of the more knowledgeable folks on here can chime in on that.
That being said, in the video the blades are dead straight when the composite is layered on to the blade core. They curve the blades using a mold and heat after the composite has been applied to the core. The core is not pre-shaped into a pattern, the entire blade is shaped after being constructed. I’m not sure exactly how composite can be heated and reshaped on skates but not on sticks. My guess is there are differences in the makeup of the composite and the resins used that cause that difference.
I think composite skates’ thermoformability has a lot to do with the whole sandwich that makes up the boot. At least with the speed skate style boots like True where the exposed composite shell resists thermoforming much more than the covered parts, perhaps there’s something about the shell under the covers not curing completely, allowing it to be activated to a pliable state at the right temperature.
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4 hours ago, All Flash said:Anything but black. Do you only wear black shoes? At the highest level of hockey , presumably the fastest , white for function. Now this only matters at the highest levels because of the speed. Easier to find a black object on a white surface. Any other level , any color , as gaining mere milliseconds in beer league doesn't matter. But for most players it's all linked to learned preference or a deeper issue really. Now the % may vary player to player but in the end.... Slight discrimination. That's why 90% of players always say they will hack and slash , or generally give players a hard time for being different when said players wear 'not' black skates , or white gloves , or a smoked/mirrored visor that make them stick out. Even worse is that some players only accept that player if they are really good but even then .... Hope for the best. Like Monty making fun of my name as it connects to me saying something different then the norm. But I am that guy. Not to mention it seems no one now's why skates should be black. 🤨
Football boots are rainbow colored. They don’t face the same treatment as hockey boots though.
Most of my shoes actually are mostly black. My style is more focused on the form pattern and material palette, letting smart decisions in those categories rising to the surface rather than dressing up an otherwise shoddy pair of footwear. I find it’s often the case that where there’s primary focus on the cosmetic, the rest of the aesthetic is compromised. If the use intention is purely that an object be looked at, then that’s fine. As soon as other concerns come into play, such as fit and longevity are concerns in picking a hockey boot, then my aesthetic considerations will take a fuller input into account: touch becomes primary and smell is also important, especially if it’s a used skate.
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5 hours ago, All Flash said:Skate design needs to move on from black being the primary color IMHO.
What would you like to see instead?
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Some recent stills of Kuch's (same star) new boots. The more I see them, the more they look like the outsole really has crept up onto the quarters, cupping the midfoot and heel.
My thought is, this is Bauer's initial response to the VH/True and CCM monocoque boots. They look like Bauer's interpretation of the Mako is finally here. Even some of the lines of the Mako are still there: of course there's the newer, sleeker toe cap that's already known from the Vapor lineup, but the wrap on Kuch's boots is reminiscent of the Makos (though with more negative space involved in this instance) as is the thick seam where the exposed composite met the plastic wrapping the Makos. In this case it looks like an inversion of its predecessor: instead of the shell of the boot going from exposed to covered as it did on the Mako, the shell of this stealthpreme still appears to be a "two-piece" boot construction with the composite quarters married to the outsole so that the prominent seam marks the end of the outsole's incursion up the rearward sides of the boot.
This makes sense. If it's a viable design, it could allow Bauer to reap similar perceived benefits of the monocoque construction ("perceived" because there are plenty of both yay and naysayers) while minimizing the degree to which they have to alter their construction methods. It can't really be a question of developing their own monocoque boot from scratch, since they own the IP for the Mako. This looks to be Bauer staying true to their ways, which still has them in a fairly comfortable lead in market share if I'm not mistaken, while attempting to fend off competition that has eaten somewhat into that market share of late.
My experience in a monocoque boot (MLX) has made me think the real performance trick has to do with its minimizing torsion which I can easily picture being exaggerated between the various parts that make up the traditional hockey boot twisting independently, as they are subjected to opposing forces in acceleration maneuvers and therefore pull away from each other somewhat. A monocoque boot would unify that system into one part that still probably twists, but as one thing rather than several, which makes for a more much more immediate response. I have no experimental or theoretical physical model showing that this is indeed what happens, it's just what it feels like going from other boots to MLX, and how I picture that feeling when I draw it in my head. There's probably a deal more redundant material in that heel/quarter/outsole sandwich than there would be on Bauer's skates with traditional outsoles which run roughly parallel to the ground (we're a long way removed from OD1N's "LET'S DELETE THE OUTSOLE!!!"), but if this can mimic that reduced interstitial torsion of a monocoque OPB it could be well worth it.
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Jakucek still has Reebok skates too...
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On 10/11/2019 at 11:19 PM, 1q3er5 said:is there such thing as a malkin curve but with a more rounded toe like p28 or my fav a w71???
You mean with a rounder toe shape or more rocker under the toe?
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I have that feeling in some of my insoles. Boots’ lining will pack in over time, but insoles can do the same, especially in the heel first. I’m not familiar with SpeedPlates though, so I’m not sure how spongy they are. Spongier insoles seem to pack in more than firmer ones. If it is the insole it should be a difference you could observe by comparing your used SpeedPlates to new ones.
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It’s a little hard to see from those shots, but does the outsole look different? It looks like it cups the bottom of the foot, coming up the quarters a bit.
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If you zoom in you can see there’s next to no cosmetic package to the skate. It’s the nicest looking Bauer since the one95.
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I like it. The 90s Tacks heel wedge was pretty loud for its day, though not unheard of—see Micron. This hearkens back to that in a version suitable to today, if a bit derivative of Alkali’s tasteful branding. Not that this is by any means CCM’s first shameless borrowing from Alkali’s design touches.
I prefer a huge wordmark over random slashes and sloshes sublimated into the quarters, ‘just because.’
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1 hour ago, hockeydad3 said:That´s what i wanted to say.
The new profile on the S180 is even feeling better and more stable than before with the old one on the N2900. But I don´t know if my skatingstance is better or a bad habbit is better supported by the profile. Have to get used to the new setup and build some "muscle memmory".
Here's where what @SkateWorksPNW and @stick9 has to be addressed, as there really are a lot of variables you've mentioned.
If your feet feel better in the Supremes than they did in the Nexus, you could be benefitting from that, unrelated to the pitch change.
When you had SuperFeet in your Nexus, did it feel better than the original insoles the skates came with but still not good enough, hence the switch to Supreme?
What kind of pain has gone away in the Supremes compared to your previous Nexus skates?
Supreme and Nexus are supposed to have a bit of a different approach to fit and feel. It could be you're benefitting from the skate family change. Maybe the material make-up of the S180 suits you better than the N2900. The S180 is the higher end skate of the two, right?
If you provide more details about the good and bad in the comparisons you're making, it'll be easier for the other active members in this thread, who are more knowledgeable than I am on these questions, to give you detailed answers.
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2 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:There are way too many variables here. For example, you are changing skate models and insoles. You also haven't stated if the steel on both is new and unaltered. There is no control set for any of these inconsistencies so it's difficult for anyone to provide a scientific explanation that would be justifiable. This is why when you make changes you should only alter one item at a time and always maintain a control set.
In his second post he mentioned the profile:
On 9/28/2019 at 6:59 PM, hockeydad3 said:I changed from a N2900 with a SuperFeet insole and a neutral pitch, 13' radius and a 92/50FBV to a Supreme 180 with a very thin insole and the same runner. The profile didn't feel good anymore and I was feeling my weight too much towards my heels. So I was trying a 11' radius +1 forward pitch with a 92/75FBV(which was OK for me with a stock 10' profile before). The pitch was feeling good but I couldn't turn or stop anymore because the edges were way too sharp.
This was the point where I was opening this thread. Meanwhile I went via a 95/50FBV(too shallow) to a 90/75FBV which seems to be a good starting point to get used to the new setup. Didn't think That a change between a 92/75FBV and a 90/75FBV could make such a big difference.
But I'm still interested in the pros and cons of pitching beside of moving the balance point.
I thought he meant it was profiled to 13' when he still had N2900s and then swapped that runner into the holder on his Supreme 180s.
It sounds like @stick9 has nailed a significant factor: pitching +1 on Supremes with stock insoles bringing you closer to the effective pitch of the N2900s, which it sounded like you were happy with. So you lost some pitch going to Supremes without SuperFeet and pitching it +1 got you back towards what you were previously on.
19 hours ago, stick9 said:The difference between those two is fairly significant. Blackstone lists the 92/75 as a 9/16 while the 90/75 a 3/4.
I'd suggest tweaking only one thing at a time. The more variables you have in play the harder it is to track.
Your issue is due to the footbeds. Superfeet have a decent amount of heel left to them. Stock beds not have next to nothing.
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8 hours ago, Vet88 said:Does his 70k skates have 10 or 11 eyelets? Retail version have 10 so if he is skipping the 10th eyelet it means he either has custom facings or it's something like the 50k facing on a 70k frame?
It looks like Crosby’s got the traditional more L-shaped < 70K cut compared to the C-shaped 70K cut. The eyelets over his instep are almost punched in the jewel. That and slightly less spacing between the eyelets seem to make way for the extra eyelet on his pair. They don’t look to be especially low cut at the top.
Good eye @BenBreeg, the shot of Sid in @SkateWorksPNW‘s link show only 10 eyelets, where the 10th is skipped and the 11th is presumably hidden by the bottom of Sid’s shins.
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3 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:He’s skipping the second eyelet in all of those. If you catch him with his leg flexed you risk missing the top eyelet because his shin slides down and conceals it. This happens quite a bit because he’s quite a deep skater. If you look at the right time you can see both: skipped eyelet with top laced eyelet concealed and top eyelet visible on the other skate. Just some examples from the ‘10-‘11 Winter Classic since it’s a precisely identifiable event in your example set:
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6 hours ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Crosby is not the only player still using that hodler, Subban is another. If you look around you will see quite a few guys preferring to use that holder over TUUK or newer CCM holders. That holder is very stiff and some of the players like that it sits a little lower to the ice vs the newer holders. Also, I have seen Crosby change his lacing a few times. Typically he drops the top eyelet but my understanding was when he switched to a newer boot he had them cut with a shorter ankle and he started to do a lace lock with the top eyelets, skipping one from the top.
Really? When did Crosby skip the top eyelet? I’ve only seen where he laces to the top, skipping the second eyelet almost always since his rookie season and lacing the second eyelet as well in juniors.
Datsyuk stuck with E Pros too.
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54 minutes ago, caveman27 said:That's interesting. I've never heard of down-spec'ed ice skates. I'm not saying they don't exist, I figure it would just be easier for the equipment manager and the skate company just to get an off-the-shelf skate that is one tier lower, like 7K.
Pros have long had much higher granularity than that. Parts can be swapped in and out to achieve the right feel. Sometimes that could mean dialing the stiffness of a part back...or up. To simply grab a lower tier product could work in theory, but that idea obscures the fact that there’s so much more going on than meets the eye in a custom boot. Companies want you to think pros are using the latest and greatest, but just as with sticks, it’s not really possible to tell what specs a player has until you get properly identifying information, which isn’t necessarily the retail wrapper you see on sticks or skates. It’s not a question as much of what would be easier to supply a player, because then custom skates wouldn’t exist. But players have mismatched size feet or a desire for more stiffness in one area and less in another. If CCM didn’t fulfill those wishes, Bauer would, etc., etc.
Another Fedorov anecdote: his Air Accel Elite styled Nikes were different than everyone else’s. They were cut one eyelet lower and had a Graf 703 / 501 shaped tendon guard instead of the Daoust shaped one that was standard on that line. Mogilny similarly had shorter cut Vapor 8s and XXs with varying top eyelet spacing / placement. Not on all of his pairs but some.
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38 minutes ago, SkateWorksPNW said:Just to reiterate. Stiff doesnt = fast. Proper form = fast. Look at the mechanics of Crosby, McDavid and Mackinnon and you can see they are all wearing skates that are stiff enough to support their movements but they do not rely on the boot itself for stability. I think a lot of this has to be with players using their hips more instead of using their legs, like comparing Jagr vs McDavid skating styles.
McDavid’s lower leg strength and activation is so far superior to anyone else currently playing the only other footage I’ve seen of similar unparalleled power is watching Bobby Orr (on YouTube...Orr’s before my time). McD also gets away with not bending his knees as much as guys with locked ankles—like Cam Atkinson for example. Connor does get extremely low sometimes, but he’ll fly through the entire opposing team in what looks like a ridiculously relaxed posture. Modano skated like that too, just with less zip and zing.
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47 minutes ago, Sniper9 said:So just realized my trues only have 9 eyelets, obviously because they are made to the size of my feet / strategically placed.
My as1s and previous Bauer's both had 10. Because I skip an eyelet on the Trues does that equate to almost two eyelets dropped on the as1s, esp because the as1s were even taller than it's predecessor?
I already noticed even tying my trues all the way to the top I had quite a bit more flexion vs the as1s.
I think True boot height is more in line with Graf and Mako, so roughly 1 eyelet lower than Bauer and CCM. It won’t be as many eyelets as the taller boots as there simply isn’t space for it.
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46 minutes ago, caveman27 said:You mean Connor McDavid? He's wears CCM JetSpeed. That's the top end, unless he's upgraded to FT2 or whatever it is now.
Marleau is in 9K. They are old. But when they were sold as new, the Reebok 9K was top-of-the-line. So, back in that time, late 2000s early 2010s, lower-end models were designed with a number lower than 9K.
Marleau’s 9K’s are still down-spec’d a bit from how a stock 9K was. He stuck with TPU outsoles like there were on his previous CCM skates. His eyelet pattern is also funky, omitting eyelets 2 and 4 from the top which also promotes forward flex. Fedorov and Bure also rocked TPU outsoled boots after composite was introduced: Bure on his early Vapor 8s and Fedorov on G3s. McDavid’s stiffness spec apparently matches the third tier offerring in the Tacks lineup: https://www.icewarehouse.com/CCM_Tacks_9080/descpage-CT8S.html
If he had wanted stiffer when JetSpeeds came out he almost certainly could have had that spec.
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1 hour ago, clarkiestooth said:Heal lock helps with edge planting and edge feel. The flexible tendon guards on today's skates help do what you're talking about: allow easier full straightening of the pushing leg, thus facilitating the toe flick.
Back then tendon guards started out stiff and broke in, allowing at least some of that toe flick, some brands more than others. My CCM 652 Pump Tacks felt pretty much the same in tendon guard ROM as my MLX do. Stamm’s instructor was out for maximum toe flick. With heel lock you can get some but with heel lift you can get even more.
Stamm’s teaching made a lot of sense for me getting a hockey boot to work more naturally before I made the jump to Graf. My 705s let me fly like I never knew I could. They had both heel lock and incredible range of motion.
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1 hour ago, caveman27 said:Well, the concept of skating with laces undone to get a feel for the edges and developing better balance and having a stiff boot for game-time play seem to be two different things to me. You have a video of someone achieving better skating skills but running drills with laces tied loosely and he's not in a game. That seems okay as one is using more muscles to achieve balance to make up for less ankle support. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, would you or do you skate like that during a game.
Dropping eyelets allows the ankle to flex forward, but that is different than going to a less stiffer boot where side-to-side flex is greater than a top-of-the-line skate. No young elite NHL skater is going from a Bauer 2S Pro to a S25.
I don't know of any NHL-level player who wears a skate with a less stiff boot than a pro-level boot, or an Olympic level figure skater who is wearing an intermediate or beginning level boot instead of an expert level boot. Are they all "crappy" skaters who are relying on stiff boots to adjust for poor fundamentals of ice skating? Actually, pro level skaters require stiffer boots, whether its ice hockey or figure skating, for the amount of stress they are putting on them. Intermediate level skates flex too much.
Both Marleau and McDavid compete on less stiff than current top-end stiffness.
Looking backwards in skate history there have always been skaters who exhibit remarkable speed and agility. Look at the dynamic skating of Valeri Kharlamov and it’s clear boots don’t have to be stiff for players to do what they need to do on the ice.
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What I appreciate about this thread is its fundamental questioning of the current state of hockey skates. I’m in the camp with those that would say they’re overstructured. There’s a lot of nuance in all of the facets that go into skating so it’s a worthwhile discussion.
Regarding heel lock, I somewhat recall being taught at Laura Stamm Power Skating that you get more stride length if you get heel lift. That way you have even more toe flick. The instructors all skated 1-3 eyelets unlaced and this was back when O.G. Bauer Vapor 8s just came out.
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If you go back in the archives on here, the connection is clear: MLX is what they renamed DASC, an acronym of 4 names where D is David Cruikshank and S Scott Van Horne after Mario Lemieux came on as an investor. I don’t know who the other two are. If you rewatch the Making of the Mako videos, Cruikshank shows off his SVH made prototype. I’m pretty sure he mentions SVH as the boot maker there. But SVH was the builder behind MLX/DASC as far as I know. Why VH Footwear didn’t have a non-compete with the Mako might come down to the different companies or the subtle differences between the Mako and VH, I’m not sure. Before all that Van Horne was also involved with Kor. @JunkyardAthletic knows the details much better.
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2019-2020 Gear Sightings
in Ice Hockey Equipment
Posted · Report reply
Maybe he likes a little more room to move over the instep. Before switching to Nexus he wore both Vapor and Supreme, both with the deepest creases I’ve seen since P. Bure.