VH Footwear/TRUE by Scott Van Horne

[Vet88 674]

On 12/2/2018 at 2:31 AM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Have we not gotten the skates yet? 

He has but its not a good result, for some unknown reason the left was made 1/2" longer than the right... He needs to be in the shop on the phone to True to find out why, something must be wrong with the scan data as both his feet are the same length. and imho they need to remake the left skate again, not just pad the toe with foam.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Time to find a new shop

[Vet88 674]

I don't know if that is the answer. True have already acknowledged that the first set of skates was their mistake, not the shop. Yes, the shop could possibly have done more to help him in the later stages but there is also more to this than smu has described here. The shop has worked with him to try and make the skates right. But what the shop does next will be key. if they are not going to get on the ph to True demanding answers and another skate remake then yes, I'd be looking to go elsewhere.These skates need to be perfect now, not just close. (btw, did I mention that the new steel is bent but that is the least of his problems atm).

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

8 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

I don't know if that is the answer. True have already acknowledged that the first set of skates was their mistake, not the shop. Yes, the shop could possibly have done more to help him in the later stages but there is also more to this than smu has described here. The shop has worked with him to try and make the skates right. But what the shop does next will be key. if they are not going to get on the ph to True demanding answers and another skate remake then yes, I'd be looking to go elsewhere.These skates need to be perfect now, not just close. (btw, did I mention that the new steel is bent but that is the least of his problems atm).

Sorry but I have been dealing with them long enough to know there is more going on here. As much as Rob took responsibility I think it's a scan plus shop information issue and always has been. I have never had these many issues in 900 plus fits. The only one was a self induced issue.  Not a factory one. All others have been solved on 2nd fits. 

[Vet88 674]

Quite possibly so but when the shop puts information like "Current skates Bauer size 5" on the order and the True skates turn up the equivalent of Bauer size 7 (and then the remade left skate the equivalent of a Bauer size 6+) then I'm not sure how much more a shop can do........

[Sniper9 530]

That's shitty news. Feel bad for smu. 

Ideally, there really shouldn't be a need for second remakes at all unless there are big issues with their scanning software and or there is a lot of possible user error from the shops doing the scanning. In any case that's Trues responsibility to fix as the shops should be trained as best as possible using their equipment.

In terms of production line errors. Aside form cosmetic and lack of qc for defective materials, the size and overall fit shouldn't be really affected by who is building the boot since they are basing it off data and scans. You shouldn't even have to tell them what size current skate you are wearing as the scan should tell you that. This is why I think maybe their software has flaws.  

[Larry54 243]

8 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

That's shitty news. Feel bad for smu. 

Ideally, there really shouldn't be a need for second remakes at all unless there are big issues with their scanning software and or there is a lot of possible user error from the shops doing the scanning. In any case that's Trues responsibility to fix as the shops should be trained as best as possible using their equipment.

In terms of production line errors. Aside form cosmetic and lack of qc for defective materials, the size and overall fit shouldn't be really affected by who is building the boot since they are basing it off data and scans. You shouldn't even have to tell them what size current skate you are wearing as the scan should tell you that. This is why I think maybe their software has flaws.  

I totally agree with that. If the customer's current skate is the wrong size, it might even be misleading and hurt the process. I feel that it's the reason why my first pair of VH were built one size longer than my current VH.

[dimpledballs 8]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:03 PM, JR Boucicaut said:

All you've been saying so far still tells me you should explore the orthotic route.  And there's very well a good possibility that you will still need it with custom skates.  In a custom boot, the goal is to not have negative space; but in your post, you're asking for negative space.

To clarify, I'm looking for a boot that has even more space at the bottom of the arch so that I can flatten out my arch rather than having extra negative space in that spot but I do understand your point.

On 11/28/2018 at 5:32 AM, Vet88 said:

Orthotics in ice skates do not fix pronation. In a shoe the orthotic has the ground to provide the support it needs to shape the foot. In an ice skate a 1/8" wide piece of steel does not provide the support the orthotic needs so your foot will still pronate. You need to either 1: move the holder inwards 2: shim the outside of the holder 3: learn to skate with your laces undone 4: buy the stiffest boots you can with the narrowest heel you can fit into and when they start to open up after a short while then buy a new pair. Anyone who wants to sell you orthotics on the premise that it will fix your pronation in ice skates is just selling a dream.

I have tried shimming my foot by adding extra insole to the inside of my foot near the arch, both along the entire length of the boot and only in the heel area and have had no success with that as the pain was even worse. I have not attempted to move my holders inward as I'm hesitant to permanently effect my skates before trying out all other options.

Additionally, I have consistently skated with the top eyelet empty for a year or so but I just recently tried lacing fully to the top and roughly half the pain has alleviated.I still feel the pain in the arch area with pressure pushing up toward my arch. I'm currently already skating in a pair of stiff skates (Nexus 8000, has curv) so I wonder if this revelation provides any insight to my problems.

[smcgreg 81]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:55 AM, IniNew said:

 

Is the problem the orthotic was going to solve something that True can solve with a fitting? My understanding of Orthotics is it helps fix pronation, and your ankle rolling one way or the other because of an improperly fitting footbed/insole. Is that your situation?

As Vet88 writes above and I have commented on several times on this site, orthotics will only exacerbate pronation.  My son has feet as flat as boards and orthotics made his pronation worse and killed his feet.  For his flat feet, skates with no support feel best.  He wears orthotics in his athletic shoes, which are necessary to avoid problems, but only make things worse in his skates. 

In my case, I pronate on my right foot, but am neutral on my left.  In this case, it's not truly pronation, but the weight is inside the center of the foot and hence more on the inside edge, because with old age, my right knee has become Valgus.  This was not an issue when I skated as a kid and young adult.  It only became a problem when I started skating again in middle age.   Anyway, the only thing that has worked for me is to have the blade moved inward to move it back under the center of pressure of my foot.  This isn't sufficient alone, as I've also shimmed under the holder, but actually shimmed the outside of the skate rather than the inside (which is what one would do for pronation in shoes). 

Anyway, I would not look to orthotics to solve a situation where one "pronates" in skates.

Again, this has been discussed extensively in various threads I've commented on.

Edited December 4, 2018 by smcgreg

[VegasHockey 1280]

20 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Sorry but I have been dealing with them long enough to know there is more going on here. As much as Rob took responsibility I think it's a scan plus shop information issue and always has been. I have never had these many issues in 900 plus fits. The only one was a self induced issue.  Not a factory one. All others have been solved on 2nd fits. 

Have to agree with this as well. We have done plenty of fittings and also have never had this significant of a problem. 

[Vet88 674]

Your custom skates were made too big (for arguments sake lets say they are 2 sizes out), they get sent back to be fixed and get returned with the toe box stuffed with a rubber material and the sides compressed inwards to make them narrower. The fit is now ok (putting aside the holder and steel length) but is this an acceptable solution for custom made skates?

- Would you, as a customer, accept it or request that the skates were made to the correct size?

- Would you as a fitter or shop owner be comfortable selling this to a customer?

- Would you as an agent of the skate manufacturer be happy that this product is an accurate representation of the quality and product produced by the company?

Lets face it, if this scenario played out in a shop for a retail skate we all know what the customer's response would be : customer: I'm looking for a size 9 skate. LHS: I don't have any in stock but I do have a size 11. Let me pack the toes and squash the sides together so it will fit you........

Edited December 6, 2018 by Vet88
added additional questions

[iceman8310 105]

what has your experience been with the original VH skate the VH Footwear one vs. the True skate?  Better fit?  worse fit?  The scan vs. tracing process?  better quality?  

[strosedefence34 175]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:02 AM, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Sorry but I have been dealing with them long enough to know there is more going on here. As much as Rob took responsibility I think it's a scan plus shop information issue and always has been. I have never had these many issues in 900 plus fits. The only one was a self induced issue.  Not a factory one. All others have been solved on 2nd fits. 

 

On 12/3/2018 at 8:55 PM, Nicholas G said:

Have to agree with this as well. We have done plenty of fittings and also have never had this significant of a problem. 

I don't get how you guys are putting this entirely on the shop?  If he has now had 2 pairs of skates made for him that are wrong why is someone from True not contacting the shop to try and get to the bottom of this?  To me, there is clearly something different between the scan and the player's foot.  I'm not saying True is closing their eyes and making the skates, but if they are having this much of an issue with this particular skate there is an issue. Makes me wonder how many pairs of True skates this shop has put out that were wrong and the other skaters thought they fit fine or good enough.  It's great that your shops have had almost zero returns of skates, but something is going on at this shop that True should try and resolve.  If I was @smu i'd move on from True now with Bauer and CCM offering customs based off of 3D scans.  The shop should just allow him to put the money he has invested in these skate to something else.  Like @Vet88 said if this was a retail skate that a shop just said here this is the closest we have it will work that's on the shop.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

27 minutes ago, strosedefence34 said:

 

I don't get how you guys are putting this entirely on the shop?  If he has now had 2 pairs of skates made for him that are wrong why is someone from True not contacting the shop to try and get to the bottom of this?  To me, there is clearly something different between the scan and the player's foot.  I'm not saying True is closing their eyes and making the skates, but if they are having this much of an issue with this particular skate there is an issue. Makes me wonder how many pairs of True skates this shop has put out that were wrong and the other skaters thought they fit fine or good enough.  It's great that your shops have had almost zero returns of skates, but something is going on at this shop that True should try and resolve.  If I was @smu i'd move on from True now with Bauer and CCM offering customs based off of 3D scans.  The shop should just allow him to put the money he has invested in these skate to something else.  Like @Vet88 said if this was a retail skate that a shop just said here this is the closest we have it will work that's on the shop.

We are putting this on the shop because it is up to them to relay the information. It does not matter if its bauer's or ccms  I have worse problems with my customers that have gotten those skates.  

1. CCM. The shop measured or marked down the wrong feet. Left is bigger by one size. But they marked it as right. 

The skates were 3 weeks to make and came in opposite.  This order was done 1st week of August.  The person wearing it plays AAA on a top team. They were given a mismatched pair to wear till the new ones were ready. The last week of October they arrived. 9 weeks later.  The shop was to blame obviously but CCM took 9 weeks to rectify!!!! And trust me this customer reemed everyone out and still went at a snail pace. 

2. Bauer.  Top player in the area. Has been in True prior. Gets custom Bauer that are an inch to long and half an inch to wide. Wears them gets a callus on the bone on the side of the foot can't skate for a week. Selected to All Star game and cant play. Draft Year!!!! I fix his True skates had a ripped eyelet and scores an end to end goal on a wasp around. Asks for his money back in sticks or gear. Told no chance. 

Store isnt doing anything to help. 

 

I could go on and on. Or I could go into details of the 10 out of 900 True clients of all but 3 were unsatisfied.  And those 3 I sold the skates and gave them Store credit for sharpening on the Difference.  That's how to solve this issue. 

It's up to the retailer to step in and tell the factory were the errors are and what  needs correction.  If they relay it correctly SMU should be happy. 

 

[strosedefence34 175]

9 minutes ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

We are putting this on the shop because it is up to them to relay the information. It does not matter if its bauer's or ccms  I have worse problems with my customers that have gotten those skates.  

1. CCM. The shop measured or marked down the wrong feet. Left is bigger by one size. But they marked it as right. 

The skates were 3 weeks to make and came in opposite.  This order was done 1st week of August.  The person wearing it plays AAA on a top team. They were given a mismatched pair to wear till the new ones were ready. The last week of October they arrived. 9 weeks later.  The shop was to blame obviously but CCM took 9 weeks to rectify!!!! And trust me this customer reemed everyone out and still went at a snail pace. 

2. Bauer.  Top player in the area. Has been in True prior. Gets custom Bauer that are an inch to long and half an inch to wide. Wears them gets a callus on the bone on the side of the foot can't skate for a week. Selected to All Star game and cant play. Draft Year!!!! I fix his True skates had a ripped eyelet and scores an end to end goal on a wasp around. Asks for his money back in sticks or gear. Told no chance. 

Store isnt doing anything to help. 

 

I could go on and on. Or I could go into details of the 10 out of 900 True clients of all but 3 were unsatisfied.  And those 3 I sold the skates and gave them Store credit for sharpening on the Difference.  That's how to solve this issue. 

It's up to the retailer to step in and tell the factory were the errors are and what  needs correction.  If they relay it correctly SMU should be happy. 

 

I'm not going to get into a keyboard war with you but at this point, it's on True.  After @smu got his first pair of skates back and they were horribly wrong he was rescanned and the shop added notes to the second scan about what was wrong with his skates. Yet the skates came back stuffed in the toe cap and the sides squished in to make them narrower. True seemed to completely ignore the notes that were put in.  The skates were sent back they made a new pair still not the right size still disregarding any notes put in by the shop after the second scan. It's great that your shop has had such great success with True customs. I know people who have had great success with CCM and Bauer customs. No one in my area skates on Trues.  The only experience I have with them is this thread plus seeing the display model at Pure hockey. 

If there is a disconnect between a 3D scan of a customers foot and the shop and the company the company needs to stand behind their product and make it right. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

11 minutes ago, strosedefence34 said:

I'm not going to get into a keyboard war with you but at this point, it's on True.  After @smu got his first pair of skates back and they were horribly wrong he was rescanned and the shop added notes to the second scan about what was wrong with his skates. Yet the skates came back stuffed in the toe cap and the sides squished in to make them narrower. True seemed to completely ignore the notes that were put in.  The skates were sent back they made a new pair still not the right size still disregarding any notes put in by the shop after the second scan. It's great that your shop has had such great success with True customs. I know people who have had great success with CCM and Bauer customs. No one in my area skates on Trues.  The only experience I have with them is this thread plus seeing the display model at Pure hockey. 

If there is a disconnect between a 3D scan of a customers foot and the shop and the company the company needs to stand behind their product and make it right. 

Ask CCM and Bauer how many pairs they will make to get it right. I'm not arguing or getting in a War. Just stating facts from knowledge of fitting True Graf Bauer and CCM customs. 

Of course it should be fixed and it will. All I said was the shop in my mind did not communicate correctly the information.  

Nobody is saying they shouldn't make it right And yes this has taken to long. But knowing the process more thoroughly than most I know there is shop error here. 

True has stood behind and has made 2 or 3 skates now. I'm betting it's now 3 or 4 in the process and they will get it right. 

 

[strosedefence34 175]

1 minute ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Ask CCM and Bauer how many pairs they will make to get it right. I'm not arguing or getting in a War. Just stating facts from knowledge of fitting True Graf Bauer and CCM customs. 

Of course it should be fixed and it will. All I said was the shop in my mind did not communicate correctly the information.  

Nobody is saying they shouldn't make it right And yes this has taken to long. But knowing the process more thoroughly than most I know there is shop error here. 

True has stood behind and has made 2 or 3 skates now. I'm betting it's now 3 or 4 in the process and they will get it right. 

 

My thing is though in your expert opinion which I value you certainly have the credentials to back it up (close to 1,000 fittings for True) if the shop is not communicating the information to True correctly. Why isn't True reaching out to the shop and saying "hey guys we certainly have an issue here.  What is wrong with the skates what needs to be done to make the customer happy?"  Maybe the shop doesn't know the proper way to communicate the issues. This could be the first time its ever happen. Again we don't have all of the info about the shop and how many pairs of True skates they have sent out.  This could be the first pair. I know from asking the manager at the local Pure hockey they have only done 2 pairs so they don't have the same experience as you do with True. This could be a learning experience for the shop. 

I look at it like this.  Let's say this is the first pair of True skates this shop has ever put out. They have never put out any other custom options, but they have the resources for CCM and Bauer to do custom skates. They are having such a tough time getting this pair of skates right that another person walks in off the street and wants customs as a shop I'd be pushing the other two because I had such an issue with True the first time.  True could lose customers from this shop over this. Regardless of who has the better skate and the best process. Again will the sales of one shop really effect True. Doubtful, but something to think about from a customer service standpoint.

 

[Sniper9 530]

Maybe it's an issue with their last size for smu?  Since they aren't making skates completely custom anymore, the last they have for the size smu needs isn't accurate to that of what smu needs....?

I know there's been a lot of talk about true not doing their skates completely bespoke anymore and more made to measure (did they ever really do them bespoke??)... I always had the impression the vh and true skates were made from a last that was 3d printed from the customer scan, but even watching the old vh videos, it does look like they had lasts already premade and matched whatever was closest to the customers size... And any specific issues accounted for. If this is the case there will onviously be some fit issues, some more major than others that won't be fixed by tinkering and heat molding.... 

I think ccms two custom options are pretty good where one option they actually high pressure mould the retail skates to a 3d last of the customers foot. 

I really like my Trues but I will admit this one case does put me off for getting then as my next pair in the future .... Especially since we don't all know how and if their assembly process is changing

Edited December 6, 2018 by Sniper9

[Giltis 116]

2 hours ago, Sniper9 said:

true not doing their skates completely bespoke anymore

So this was one of my biggest concerns and I wrote them about it. Turns out they actually do make custom one-off moulds off the foot scan. 

This is the quote "...Our the[sic] moulds used for our skates are designed from your foot scan. Once the mould is in place, material as[sic] added layer by layer as an inside out build..."

 

Reading through @smu's posts and issues that he's had, we are all merely speculating what the LHS and TRUE are actually doing. I'd like to know if and when, and most of all how it will all get resolved. Listening to the whole saga I was a bit hesitant (especially dropping 1k sight unseen), but I think I will make my purchase in the new year. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Giltis

[iceman8310 105]

How is the True customizing vs. bauer and ccm?  I had a pair of VH skates that were done via the tracing.  I know the technology has changed.  I want to get the best option,  

[Stewie 721]

2 hours ago, oldtrainerguy28 said:

Ask CCM and Bauer how many pairs they will make to get it right. I'm not arguing or getting in a War. Just stating facts from knowledge of fitting True Graf Bauer and CCM customs. 

Of course it should be fixed and it will. All I said was the shop in my mind did not communicate correctly the information.  

Nobody is saying they shouldn't make it right And yes this has taken to long. But knowing the process more thoroughly than most I know there is shop error here. 

True has stood behind and has made 2 or 3 skates now. I'm betting it's now 3 or 4 in the process and they will get it right. 

 

I don't see how only the shop can be considered in error here. it should NEVER be acceptable to just add padding to the toe of a custom skate to get the length right, and if I was in the business of custom skates, I would NEVER listen to a shop even if they were the ones requesting that. 

I have the feeling that some people would just defend True no matter what they do, and even after they have accepted responsibility. 

we get it, CCM and Bauer customs also have issues, but that's not the topic of debate here. In this case, their process and responses have let down the customer, not the other two companies. 

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Final word,

 

Ok, again I am not blaming the shop!!!!!!!!!! I said there is a lack of communication from the shop to the factory!!!!!!! In the beginning, the shop had zero accountability according to SMU and I and others disagree!!!! The shop should be 50 50 with the factory and that the factory should and is standing behind what they do and remaking the skates!!!

 

The reason to bring up the others is that I keep seeing how they never make any mistakes and they're so perfect. It's not about defending True it's about getting the record straight and nobody is perfect. My experience is after 30 years that Bauer is the worst CCM is better and True so far has been the best when it comes to custom skates!🤐

[Sniper9 530]

40 minutes ago, Giltis said:

So this was one of my biggest concerns and I wrote them about it. Turns out they actually do make custom one-off moulds off the foot scan. 

This is the quote "...Our the[sic] moulds used for our skates are designed from your foot scan. Once the mould is in place, material as[sic] added layer by layer as an inside out build..."

 

Reading through @smu's posts and issues that he's had, we are all merely speculating what the LHS and TRUE are actually doing. I'd like to know if and when, and most of all how it will all get resolved. Listening to the whole saga I was a bit hesitant (especially dropping 1k sight unseen), but I think I will make my purchase in the new year. 

The tracings for sure were lasts that vh had and altered to the unique features of the individual. Obviously pros prob had actual moulds made of their feet. 

If what their reply is true and they are made bespoke, there should be NO issues with fit. Especially too big. I can see some people maybe finding it too small because they're not used to the zero negative space, but the too big makes no sense. That's why I wonder if their scans are susceptible to errors more often than it should, or they use premade lasts and just alter it depending on the foot scans. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Sniper9

[shoot_the_goalie 281]

My two cents...  In SMU's case, sounds like the shop is guilty of communication errors.  However, now that True is no longer direct to consumer and added a "middle-man" into the process, it's on True to make sure that their authorized fitters know what they are doing and know how to communicate any issues back to True.  I feel that this is the part of the process that broke down, and in SMU's case, it's on both the shop and True to rectify the problem.  And look...if it turns out it's definitely more one-sided fault, then it's ultimately up to True to take command, since it's their product, not the shop's.  So if the shop is just completely incompetent, True should take over for this specific case, and then later, either re-train the shop or "de-authorize" the shop from selling their product.

Just because you're an authorized True seller/fitter, doesn't mean you're good at actually fitting & selling the product (like oldtrainerguy28 is).  Luckily for me, the LHS I got scanned at, the guy who did the fitting really knew what he was doing, and he was the only employee in that store authorized to do the scan at that time.  If you wanted to get True skates at that shop, you had to make an appointment, and only when he was at the store.  Even then, at that time, he had only done a handful of scans (sold product), and he even mentioned that there were still kinks in the process, such as bad connectivity issues, etc.  Hopefully a year later, those kinks have been smoothed out.  Heck, I know of certain authorized True fitters, that have, at this point, only done 1-2 sold scans.  Point being, I would highly recommend going to a True fitter you know well/has a great reputation or calling the shop ahead of time and asking how many pairs they've scanned and sold.  Just don't assume that if they sell Trues, that all will be perfect.

[Giltis 116]

Yeah one thing that's reassuring me about a purchase is that a couple of my teammates have gone to the exact LHS that I will be going to get fitted/scanned, and have had great results.